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 AnimeSuki Forum [Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

 2010-08-05, 15:58 Link #4061 Jan-Poo 別にいいけど     Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error Well I wouldn't cal it a "riddle", none of the stuff in Maria's books are exactly riddles like the epitaph. It's how Rosa said, they are not riddles they are like math problems. The main difference is that there are no double entendres, you can trust what the description says and so on. However Battler decided to solve the cheese problem thinking about it as if it was a riddle, and that's how he got an answer different than what was written in the book. Beatrice is certainly the kind of person that would use riddles instead of logic problems, so we need think about this closed room case as if it was a riddle. PS: The guestroom was well defined if I remember correctly. It only covers the bathroom, the bedroom and the walk-in closet. __________________
 2010-08-05, 16:00 Link #4062 Renall BUY MY BOOK!!!     Join Date: May 2009 Well then, imagine the following: We have no reliable perspective, therefore, eliminate all perspective-based scenes and look at the closed room strictly as a logic problem. In short, do what we've all been taught not to do over the course of 6 games and look only at the red. Done this way, Kaisos's answer pretty much works perfectly: The guestroom is inside the cousins' room. Hell, if you want, you can put the guestroom inside the cousins' room inside the next room over, and it doesn't even hurt Shkanon. __________________ Redaction of the Golden Witch I submit that a murder was committed in 1996. This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986. This story is a redacted confession. Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists Battler Solves The Logic Error
Tyabann
Homo Ludens

Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 27
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Jan-Poo However Battler decided to solve the cheese problem thinking about it as if it was a riddle, and that's how he got an answer different than what was written in the book.
That's exactly how you're supposed to solve the cups and the coins, though.

There's nothing mathematical about sticking a cup in another cup. You can only do that because the rules don't say you can't. While this is the answer printed in the book, it relies entirely on out-of-the-box thinking. It's a riddle.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Jan-Poo The guestroom was well defined if I remember correctly. It only covers the bathroom, the bedroom and the walk-in closet.
Yes, that's the guestroom. The cousins' room would cover all of that and more.

UsagiTenpura
Artist

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Jan-Poo That's basically it Usagitempura. The witch's thesis is that Kanon magically disappeared. Erika was pretty sure Kanon had to be inside the guestroom. What we need to understand is how Kanon could disappear from the room. We have two different theories that can work, but none of them can be used to solve every other closed room so far. So either Ryuukishi was imprecise in his statements or there is another answer. There is also Battler's comment "is this even mystery? Those people will complain" (something like that) so we need to expect something ridiculous. The time was stopped so you can't explain it with the final explosion. Plus would it even be all right to say that the guestroom didn't exist anymore and the chainlock is set at the same time?
Well I seriously didn't say that to suggest it was the answer, if the answer is to be ridiculous I'm going to vote for the most ridiculous one I hear. So I'm going to say the following idea simply to show how a ridiculous idea could actually sorta work.

The definition of "guestroom" changed from being the inside of that room to being the rest of mansion except that room (or maybe simply the corridor). That would allow the chain to still be set to the "guestroom" and for Kanon not to exist in it anymore.

Jan-Poo

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
But I insist, there's Knox8

The cup riddle isn't good enough as a hint. If a room inside a room like that existed there should be a hint about that.

Quote:
 That's exactly how you're supposed to solve the cups and the coins, though. There's nothing mathematical about sticking a cup in another cup. You can only do that because the rules don't say you can't. While this is the answer printed in the book, it relies entirely on out-of-the-box thinking. It's a riddle.
Eh no, I don't think so. The trick with the cups is something you can actually do it and can work.

The trick of the cheese however is actually impossible, because the cheese would break in reality.
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Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon It's just like the riddle of the cups and the coins. The construction of the cousin's room has never been shown, therefore, nothing prevents it from being composed of multiple rooms! Battler's guestroom is not in the mansion at all! It is inside the cousins' room! When Erika told Hideyoshi she was going into the cousins' room, she wasn't lying; she never left the guesthouse at all!
I like the idea quite a bit. I'm not sure it works, but let me meditate a little on it.

The "cousins room" backgrounds are shown to have two beds on them, but not four. On these backgrounds, the beds stand next to a "living room" area which contains a coffee table, a dresser and three chairs.

To contain four cousins, four beds would be needed. In hotels, which everyone assumes the guesthouse to be, it is not uncommon to have two two-bed rooms next to each other connected by a door between them, which would produce a single room with two entry doors, divided by a wall with a third door in it. Considering that two of the cousins are girls and two are boys, this is only natural for otherwise quite Victorian sensibilities of the Ushiromiya main family.

...wait. Huh?!

But then the door of the next room over could lead into the cousins room again through the intermediary door, wouldn't it?
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 "The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes." — Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge" This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse by the Department of Education. (updated 2010-08-24)

chronotrig
Senior Member

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Jan-Poo What we need to understand is how Kanon could disappear from the room. We have two different theories that can work, but none of them can be used to solve every other closed room so far. So either Ryuukishi was imprecise in his statements or there is another answer.
It's the quote that's been translated imprecisely. Ryuukishi never said that one single trick could explain all closed rooms. He just said that whoever understands the final EP6 trick should have everything they need to solve the game. "謎は全部解けてもおかしくない". That means they should be capable of solving everything eventually, not that knowing the trick explains everything by itself.

He also said that many people had found the key, so I doubt it's something that we've never thought of before.
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"The only moral it is possible to draw from this story is that one should never throw the letter 'q' into a privet bush. But, unfortunately, there are times when it is unavoidable."
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www.witch-hunt.com Theory page

Renall

Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Jan-Poo But I insist, there's Knox8 The cup riddle isn't good enough as a hint. If a room inside a room like that existed there should be a hint about that.
What defines "good enough" to you, though? The cups and coins clue is there. That makes it at least something a solution could rely on, as it is a clue that has been presented. It may not be a good or detailed clue, but Knox doesn't say that.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error

Tyabann
Homo Ludens

Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 27
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Jan-Poo The cup riddle isn't good enough as a hint.
Why isn't it? Moetrice tells us that she got the solution from a book... and at almost the same time, the cups diagram flashes across the screen.

chronotrig
Senior Member

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Renall What defines "good enough" to you, though? The cups and coins clue is there. That makes it at least something a solution could rely on, as it is a clue that has been presented. It may not be a good or detailed clue, but Knox doesn't say that.
Heh, if only you applied that logic to my theories...
__________________
"The only moral it is possible to draw from this story is that one should never throw the letter 'q' into a privet bush. But, unfortunately, there are times when it is unavoidable."
--Hitchhikers

www.witch-hunt.com Theory page

Tyabann
Homo Ludens

Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 27
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Oliver But then the door of the next room over could lead into the cousins room again through the intermediary door, wouldn't it?
Indeed it could.

...What if they all count as the same room?

Cups. And. Coins.

Renall

Join Date: May 2009
Assuming this solution, the "key" could be something as simple as "the situation perceived and interpreted by the detective or a reliable perspective is not necessarily true simply because the perspective was reliable."

I've mentioned before that many of the closed rooms are "closed" only because Battler thinks they are, or makes an assumption (such as that people in a closed room are dead BEFORE the closed room is broken open). Since he's the protagonist, he makes assumptions. The same can be said of the ep5 knock. If there was no knock, the solution is easy. We make the assumption that because Lambda tells us so many things about what the knock wasn't, that means the knock was; that is, we assume there was a knock because she told us all the ways the knock could not have happened, leaving us to draw the conclusion that there exists a way in which the knock did happen. But she doesn't really mean that.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by chronotrig Heh, if only you applied that logic to my theories...
Then I would still draw mostly the same conclusions, since you speculate on things that aren't presented?
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error

UsagiTenpura
Artist

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
Quote:
 Originally Posted by chronotrig Heh, if only you applied that logic to my theories...
Yeah all the 3 = 1 references in the game I believe hints far more about Shkanontrice then about the final closed room... Not to say that final closed doesn't follow the same logic.

Jan-Poo

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
 Originally Posted by chronotrig It's the quote that's been translated imprecisely. Ryuukishi never said that one single trick could explain all closed rooms. He just said that whoever understands the final EP6 trick should have everything they need to solve the game. "謎は全部解けてもおかしくない". That means they should be capable of solving everything eventually, not that knowing the trick explains everything by itself. He also said that many people had found the key, so I doubt it's something that we've never thought of before.
Quote:
 本当は救出方法が分かれば、「EP1」から「EP4」の謎は全部解けてもおかしくないんです。 特に、今回は、ヒントという名の答えをどんどん出していますので、今までの密室の謎は全て説明 できるはずな んです。
However the senteces continues and it says you should be able to solve any closed room trick so far.

Quote:
 Why isn't it? Moetrice tells us that she got the solution from a book... and at almost the same time, the cups diagram flashes across the screen.
Because the clue must be related to the setting itself. In the case of Kinzo's study the hints were specific for Kinzo's study. This kind of "clue" you are proposing is not even closely related. It can work as a hint for the solution but not as a clue of the guesthouse odd architecture.
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chronotrig
Senior Member

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Jan-Poo However the senteces continues and it says you should be able to solve any closed room trick so far.
Yes, but he doesn't say that one single trick should do it. In fact, he says you should be able to do it "after all of the many hints we released in this game". Also, he doesn't even say that the hints from this game should lead you to the solution on their own. He's saying that, by using everything that he's shown so far, including EP6, it should be possible to find the answer.

So, it has absolutely nothing to do with one trick that solves everything. That doesn't mean there isn't one, but it's not what Ryuukishi is saying here.
__________________
"The only moral it is possible to draw from this story is that one should never throw the letter 'q' into a privet bush. But, unfortunately, there are times when it is unavoidable."
--Hitchhikers

www.witch-hunt.com Theory page

Tyabann
Homo Ludens

Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 27
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Jan-Poo Because the clue must be related to the setting itself. In the case of Kinzo's study the hints were specific for Kinzo's study. This kind of "clue" you are proposing is not even closely related. It can work as a hint for the solution but not as a clue of the guesthouse odd architecture.
All Knox 8 says is that it is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. It says nothing about how or when said clues are presented.

 2010-08-05, 16:16 Link #4077 Jan-Poo 別にいいけど     Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error Are you totally sure? Because I see it slightly different, it looks to me that Ryuukishi is talking about specific hints revealed in episode6, and not "all the hints so far including EP6". __________________
Jan-Poo

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon All Knox 8 says is that it is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.
The coin trick doesn't work as a clue, at best it works as a help a lead or a teaser.

A "clue" is more specific for something that regards the setting.
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Tyabann
Homo Ludens

Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 27
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Jan-Poo A "clue" is more specific for something that regards the setting.
Where does it say that? I see no rule that says that.

Renall

Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Jan-Poo The coin trick doesn't work as a clue, at best it works as a help a lead or a teaser. A "clue" is more specific for something that regards the setting.
When is the word "clue" defined? You're working within the confines of a story in which something that is not a corpse can be called a corpse, remember.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error