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Old 2013-06-06, 09:23   Link #2161
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Still waiting for Mass Effect comparisons.
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Old 2013-06-06, 09:24   Link #2162
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If this is really it the rage that will come from this fanbase will be pretty extreme.

Can anything end these days without pissing everyone off in the process?
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Old 2013-06-06, 09:24   Link #2163
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Originally Posted by finalfury View Post
I think before people can make claims to Kyousuke and Kirino avoided the legal ramnifications and social reprecussions, I need to understand how a 14 year old girl managed to get 18+ material from online sites. I doubt that she used her parent's credit card(Dad is the stingy type). Moral of the story: Do not apply logic to anime/light novels.
No, this isn't an issue. Most Japanese online stores accept bank transfer and Cash-On-Delivery, so you don't need a credit card to order. In fact, credit cards in general were not as commonly used until the last decade or so. It probably wouldn't be so hard to order from these sites. And they did already establish that her work was the source of her funds.
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Old 2013-06-06, 09:25   Link #2164
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@Vexx relax man, relax!!!!

I said that it is a rumour man. Relax. Fiction dude. Why are you upset man???
Sorry, heh! I really am not angry - that came out far too strong. But it is aggravating to experience this kind of "writer didn't follow through with basic principles" over and over again in this arena. It is really hard to be sympathetic to a writer who can't adapt to changing deadlines because they really haven't plotted their work out. And it seems like there's a wealth of writers who don't actually have a clue that characters they create write their own stories so they can't just jerk them to the game board positions as they please.

I'm looking at from a story writing perspective more than anything else. And like Relentless says - best to wait for the whole story. It may be that my skewers and barbs are addressed by a non-ending -- "life goes on with the gang".
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Old 2013-06-06, 09:26   Link #2165
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Damn... is what i could just say for now.
I'll still be waiting for further official sources.
But if that is to be the real conclusion, then i'm just praying that they totally go a different end with the anime.
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Old 2013-06-06, 09:27   Link #2166
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The author tried to please too many people at the same time. The Kirino end did make sense in terms of character develop since she did spend the most time with Kyosuke. At the same time the story had to be "moral" so it ended with a wizard end.

Also I just love how the MC pretty much killed all prospect of him ever finding a girl now.
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Old 2013-06-06, 09:28   Link #2167
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So let me get this right,they kissed twice: In church and then in the meeting(after they promised each other to return to being normal siblings). If that is so i think thats just an excuse cuz they are in public and im sure after doing this there is no way to return things to the way they were.Besides the after 10 yr thingy will clear everything.
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Old 2013-06-06, 09:29   Link #2168
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
No, this isn't an issue. Most Japanese online stores accept bank transfer and Cash-On-Delivery, so you don't need a credit card to order. In fact, credit cards in general were not as commonly used until the last decade or so. It probably wouldn't be so hard to order from these sites. And they did already establish that her work was the source of her funds.
Thanks for the reply. Regardless of my misinterpretion and the fact that I know very little about online methods of payment, I still stand by the whole "Don't apply logic to anime/lightnovels/manga/VN".
I've been spoiled by Amazon since I never knew Cash-On-Delivery even existed. ==
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Old 2013-06-06, 09:29   Link #2169
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@Vexx relax man, relax!!!!

I said that it is a rumour man. Relax. Fiction dude. Why are you upset man???
The fact that it's fiction makes it even worse. The story is literally dependent on the author, and as such can be written as they please. That does not mean that they should just ignore plot holes and unanswered questions within their works. If it were nonfiction there'd be an excuse, since you can't just go making stuff up, but it isn't.
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Old 2013-06-06, 09:29   Link #2170
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Originally Posted by shironeko8 View Post
Damn... is what i could just say for now.
I'll still be waiting for further official sources.
But if that is to be the real conclusion, then i'm just praying that they totally go a different end with the anime.
Perhaps they go with the same format as the first season? A TV ending, and a true ending.
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Old 2013-06-06, 09:31   Link #2171
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Well, seems like a controversial ending here, or rather a non-ending, though it seems like the Kirino/Kyousuke stuff was dealt with.

Spoiler for spoiler:
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Old 2013-06-06, 09:32   Link #2172
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Originally Posted by Wilshere View Post
So let me get this right,they kissed twice: In church and then in the meeting(after they promised each other to return to being normal siblings). If that is so i think thats just an excuse cuz they are in public and im sure after doing this there is no way to return things to the way they were.Besides the after 10 yr thingy will clear everything.
This, even if they "say" they are just normal siblings again after all this, its like me saying I am not fat after eating 100 pounds of lard, you can say it, it doesn't make it true. And from what I have read on here and other sites, yes they do kiss twice once at the church and once at the meeting. I am pretty sure the kiss at the meeting should solidify for anyone with doubts that this is basically a Kirino end and that being normal siblings again is impossible.

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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
The fact that it's fiction makes it even worse. The story is literally dependent on the author, and as such can be written as they please. That does not mean that they should just ignore plot holes and unanswered questions within their works. If it were nonfiction there'd be an excuse, since you can't just go making stuff up, but it isn't.
My question is, what plotholes/unanswered questions do you people keep talking about? Or better yet, how do you know that there is plotholes? All we have is like 15 lines from the novel summarizing it, it is possible that some of the plotholes are addressed in the actual novel so at least wait to read the novel or a detailed summary before jumping to all these conclusions about plotholes since we don't know the whole story.
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Old 2013-06-06, 09:36   Link #2173
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Sorry, heh! I really am not angry - that came out far too strong. But it is aggravating to experience this kind of "writer didn't follow through with basic principles" over and over again in this arena. It is really hard to be sympathetic to a writer who can't adapt to changing deadlines because they really haven't plotted their work out. And it seems like there's a wealth of writers who don't actually have a clue that characters they create write their own stories so they can't just jerk them to the game board positions as they please.

I'm looking at from a story writing perspective more than anything else.
I strongly agree with the bolded. Too many times I see people talking about how authors should stick with the storyline they originally intended without making changes along the way, and I think that doing so often leads to a suboptimal result because the best characters often take on lives of their own and develop in ways that couldn't have been anticipated along the way. This does not mean that authors should change the plot for no rhyme or reason, but that changes that are made due to the characters taking the plot in a different direction should not be ignored for the sake of sticking with the original events.

The newest spoilers that relentlessflame posted could have worked if the author had written the earlier parts differently. For example, the ending could have been a bittersweet reference to forbidden love that cannot proceed due to social values, but the earlier volumes had not addressed this issue sufficiently for the epilogue to be read in this manner.

Given the way that the previous volumes were written, I don't really see much room for the epilogue to be interpreted in any fashion other than a cop out, where the author intended for a Kirino end but decided to tone it all down for various reasons that have already been expounded many times here.
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Old 2013-06-06, 09:36   Link #2174
GDB
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Originally Posted by Soverence View Post
My question is, what plotholes do you people keep talking about? Or better yet, how do you know that there is plotholes? All we have is like 15 lines from the novel summarizing it, it is possible that some of the plotholes are addressed in the actual novel so at least wait to read the novel or a detailed summary before jumping to all these conclusions about plotholes since we don't know the whole story.
If that's the sort of attitude you want to take, then all discussion might as well stop and this thread be locked until said summary/translation comes out.
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Old 2013-06-06, 09:36   Link #2175
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This, even if they "say" they are just normal siblings again after all this, its like me saying I am not fat after eating 100 pounds of lard, you can say it, it doesn't make it true. And from what I have read on here and other sites, yes they do kiss twice once at the church and once at the meeting. I am pretty sure the kiss at the meeting should solidify for anyone with doubts that this is basically a Kirino end and that being normal siblings again is impossible.
Hmm pretty much, and I wont be surrised if they really do end living together after 10 yrs(being REALLY married).The purpose of this Volume is to show the REAL hidden feelings of kyousuke towards kirino although I assumed that Kirino will do something before him but he pushed himself that he is the one to confess first,anyway as a Kirino shipper I am satisfied with this semi-incest ending but yeah we will have to wait and see what will happen after 10 yrs.
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Old 2013-06-06, 09:37   Link #2176
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The fact that it's fiction makes it even worse. The story is literally dependent on the author, and as such can be written as they please. That does not mean that they should just ignore plot holes and unanswered questions within their works. If it were nonfiction there'd be an excuse, since you can't just go making stuff up, but it isn't.
I think we need to wait for the details, as was said... but I don't think there are actually that many plot holes and unanswered questions in concept about what was covered, particularly as a follow-up to what happened in Volume 11.

The main issue that some are concerned with is "how do they deal with the barrier of acceptance", and this is basically addressed: they had a time-limited relationship and then pledged to give it up. After all they've been through, they can probably hide it from their parents for a while. More details are needed to know who all they told and the reaction, but as something that lasted for a few months, it should be plausible. And then after that, by ostensibly returning to being normal siblings, the issue is buried. Now, whether that's really what they did, or it was just a thicker front they were putting up to hide the truth, is subject to interpretation (based on the epilogue as mentioned).

I said myself that a Kuroneko ending seemed like a logical way for the story to go, but after Volume 11 I do see how all the pieces were put in place for this possibility, I guess I just didn't think the author would actually go there. But from a plot structure perspective, I think most of the bases are potentially covered pending the rest of the details being clarified as they come in. I'm not really going to judge too much more about whether I like the ending until I read more.
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Old 2013-06-06, 09:43   Link #2177
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
The fact that it's fiction makes it even worse. The story is literally dependent on the author, and as such can be written as they please. That does not mean that they should just ignore plot holes and unanswered questions within their works. If it were nonfiction there'd be an excuse, since you can't just go making stuff up, but it isn't.
This. You have to respect your characters even if you plan to kill them. If you've developed your characters properly, in a real way they're telling you, the author, how the story should unfold.

You can't establish that someone would never accept something under any conditions and then have them suddenly say, "oh, yeah, i guess that's fine!". Suspension of disbelief = snuffed. No lines connecting the dots.

If you're thinking about the puppeteer jerking the puppets around instead of being enthralled in the story, the puppeteer has failed.

edit: not accusing the author of this just yet. will read the novel and see how grumpy I am when done.

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Originally Posted by omimon
The author tried to please too many people at the same time. The Kirino end did make sense in terms of character develop since she did spend the most time with Kyosuke. At the same time the story had to be "moral" so it ended with a wizard end.

Also I just love how the MC pretty much killed all prospect of him ever finding a girl now.
Yeah, this series isn't that old so it isn't like the author would have been surprised by the "new hypermoral climate". Under the same conditions, if my intent from the start was to have a Kirino ending - I'd have gone for a "we've grown up a little bit" platonic Kirino ending and leave all the other possible girlfriends for Kyou as "possible". (thus leaving room for future novels or giving the fans a startpoint for tons of doujinshi). That would satisfy the unfolding story imperative and yet avoid having many readers feel like it was a broken "wizard ending" (heh, I hadn't heard that term til just now, guess it is easier to write that deus ex machina).
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Old 2013-06-06, 09:47   Link #2178
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You can't establish that someone would never accept something under any conditions and then have them suddenly say, "oh, yeah, i guess that's fine!". Suspension of disbelief = snuffed. No lines connecting the dots.
So that I'm more clear about the issue you're describing, who is it that said they'd never accept it and then has ostensibly accepted it "suddenly"? Is there any evidence so far that this person was clearly made aware of the situation or that they did in fact accept it?

(And by the way, the ending may be a lot of things, but how is it deus ex machina?)
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Old 2013-06-06, 09:49   Link #2179
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
This. You have to respect your characters even if you plan to kill them. If you've developed your characters properly, in a real way they're telling you, the author, how the story should unfold.

You can't establish that someone would never accept something under any conditions and then have them suddenly say, "oh, yeah, i guess that's fine!". Suspension of disbelief = snuffed. No lines connecting the dots.

If you're thinking about the puppeteer jerking the puppets around instead of being enthralled in the story, the puppeteer has failed.



Yeah, this series isn't that old so it isn't like the author would have been surprised by the "new hypermoral climate". Under the same conditions, if my intent from the start was to have a Kirino ending - I'd have gone for a "we've grown up a little bit" platonic Kirino ending and leave all the other possible girlfriends for Kyou as "possible". (thus leaving room for future novels or giving the fans a startpoint for tons of doujinshi). That would satisfy the unfolding story imperative and yet avoid having many readers feel like it was a "wizard ending" (heh, I hadn't heard that term til just now, guess it is easier to write that deus ex machina).
I wish this is how it happened, it's not so much I hate the incest angle... it's just there was no legitimate build up of it at least from Kyousuke's perspective. Kirino confessing her love to him would have been okay because you've seen her motivations laid bare for a while now.
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Old 2013-06-06, 09:50   Link #2180
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So that I'm more clear about the issue you're describing, who is it that said they'd never accept it and then has ostensibly accepted it "suddenly"? Is there any evidence so far that this person was clearly made aware of the situation or that they did in fact accept it?
Ah, I'm having a meta-conversation about story writing that may not even belong here. but I never thought Ayase really made the case that she would accept a Kyou-Kirino couple, for example. (which she and the others would have to unless they're really that suddenly stupid that Kirino has gotten over her physical attraction to Kyou)

Quote:
(And by the way, the ending may be a lot of things, but how is it deus ex machina?)
There isn't one boom point so much as a lot of tiny fractures. If what we are being told is actually what happens (qualify qualify), it seems more than a few characters will have to shift their positions on the topic rather dramatically. Even Kyou seems out of position for this kind of finish. As tommythecat just noted, Kirino is far more physically attracted than vice versa, at least by my reading. Also, I'm not calling a "wizard ending" myself just yet -- just noting that quite a few of the posters are thinking that.
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