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Old 2013-06-07, 01:59   Link #2401
relentlessflame
 
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Instead, the show merely toyed with some developments, and then all of a sudden decided "okay, so this is where Kyousuke decides, and since there are no proper answers to the questions posed and no resolutions to the hurdles, we go back to square one".

I'm sorry, but romantic feelings just don't work this way.
Yes, but again, this is where the ambiguous ending comes into play. If they had just "gone back to square one" and that was the end of it, I'd agree. But ending the novel with Kyousuke giving Kirino a kiss, as it does, throws the theory out of whack. It throws the whole "let's go back to normal siblings" plot development into disarray. Granted, of course, that it's deliberately ambiguous and still doesn't really address the questions you want them to address. But I think it's clear that there are reasons why they can't really address all those questions in a novel sold at all ages. If your argument is "well, then, they shouldn't have gone there at all if they weren't going to go all the way and deal with every issue," that's certainly a perfectly valid opinion. But I'm not prepared to really say how well or poorly-written this is until at least getting a much more detailed, complete summary of the book.

Based on the rest of your comments, though, I'm honestly not sure if there's any way this story could have taken this path and be redeemable in your eyes, so perhaps the details aren't so important from that perspective and it's pointless to argue.
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Old 2013-06-07, 02:01   Link #2402
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I don't know about that one. She did not hate Kyousuke, she hated the way he turned out to be after Manami convinced him, he should just play the role of a normal boy and forsake his ambitions / being cool. And to say she is nasty self-centered and only loves herself. I sincerely disagree.
Fair enough, but please just reread the interactions between Kirino and Kyousuke in the earlier volumes and try to remind yourself "this is a girl who loves her brother". You will experience a complete disconnect to reality.

"Feeling love for someone" in my book means a desire to take care of this someone. It means prioritizing the well-being of someone over your own. To be there for them when they need it.

With only 1-2 exceptions in the latest volumes, Kirino consistently prioritized her own well-being over everyone else's. Her wishes and desires are 99% focused on herself, and essentially, the show is about gofer Kyousuke helping Kirino to get what she wants, and to resolve the problems that Kirino has. Which, by the way, is also why I could never warm up to this relationship. There's too much sugar blown up Kirino's rear end, and the girl has absolutely not enough redeeming character traits to justify it (which ones does she have at all?).
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Old 2013-06-07, 02:10   Link #2403
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Fair enough, but please just reread the interactions between Kirino and Kyousuke in the earlier volumes and try to remind yourself "this is a girl who loves her brother". You will experience a complete disconnect to reality.

"Feeling love for someone" in my book means a desire to take care of this someone. It means prioritizing the well-being of someone over your own. To be there for them when they need it.

With only 1-2 exceptions in the latest volumes, Kirino consistently prioritized her own well-being over everyone else's. Her wishes and desires are 99% focused on herself, and essentially, the show is about gofer Kyousuke helping Kirino to get what she wants, and to resolve the problems that Kirino has. Which, by the way, is also why I could never warm up to this relationship. There's too much sugar blown up Kirino's rear end, and the girl has absolutely not enough redeeming character traits to justify it (which ones does she have at all?).
Well,her trust for him about her ''secret'' is a hint,and why will she go all out declaring her feelings after 3 year boycott? I think its pretty impossible to say anything after ignoring each other for 3 whole yrs.Reason why she hated him was all because of Manami turning him into a lazy-boring guy nothing more nothing less,in fact she always looked up on her brother,she wanted to be like him,basically he was her role model.
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Old 2013-06-07, 02:11   Link #2404
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Yes, but again, this is where the ambiguous ending comes into play. If they had just "gone back to square one" and that was the end of it, I'd agree. But ending the novel with Kyousuke giving Kirino a kiss, as it does, throws the theory out of whack.
Why? The kiss is only the author's way to say "this is the winner". And then they go back.

Ever felt real romantic love for someone? If so, do you feel you can relate to this reaction?

Quote:
Granted, of course, that it's deliberately ambiguous and still doesn't really address the questions you want them to address. But I think it's clear that there are reasons why they can't really address all those questions in a novel sold at all ages.
But they WERE addressed earlier. We HAD the falling-out with the parents. We HAD Ayase's massive objections. They were just not solved. That's exactly what I criticize the show for. It was felled by the same issues it raised itself.

Quote:
If your argument is "well, then, they shouldn't have gone there at all if they weren't going to go all the way and deal with every issue," that's certainly a perfectly valid opinion. But I'm not prepared to really say how well or poorly-written this is until at least getting a much more detailed, complete summary of the book.
Fair enough.

Quote:
Based on the rest of your comments, though, I'm honestly not sure if there's any way this story could have taken this path and be redeemable in your eyes, so perhaps the details aren't so important from that perspective and it's pointless to argue.
Possibly so. The thing is that I find Kirino insufferable and her selfishness repulsive. See my reply to SigUp for details. What is displayed in the show is a total perversion of the concept of "love" when judged by my standards, but I guess there is at least some consistency in the show when slavish devotion to a narcist is kept up till the end. Just sad to see that several alternatives which are much closer to my idea of love were trampled over along the way

Still - I do think that I have grounds to objectively criticize the show for failure to resolve the very issues it has raised by itself. Not just my subjective disappointment with the chosen one.
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Old 2013-06-07, 02:13   Link #2405
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Why? The kiss is only the author's way to say "this is the winner". And then they go back.
No, you're missing this: there are two kisses.

1. At the wedding scene right before they "go back".
2. At the very end of the epilogue after they have ostensibly already "gone back" (where Kyousuke gives Kirino an unexpected kiss).

I've explained this a few times now, but every time you miss it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
But they WERE addressed earlier. We HAD the falling-out with the parents. We HAD Ayase's massive objections. They were just not solved. That's exactly what I criticize the show for. It was felled by the same issues it raised itself.
And again, to be fair, we have no idea to what extent these issues were or were not raised by the volume. The book is nearly 400 pages long, and all we have so far are short, questionably-accurate summaries. Let's hold a bit before casting too many more stones.
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Old 2013-06-07, 02:32   Link #2406
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
No, you're missing this: there are two kisses.

1. At the wedding scene right before they "go back".
2. At the very end of the epilogue after they have ostensibly already "gone back" (where Kyousuke gives Kirino an unexpected kiss).

I've explained this a few times now, but every time you miss it.


And again, to be fair, we have no idea to what extent these issues were or were not raised by the volume. The book is nearly 400 pages long, and all we have so far are short, questionably-accurate summaries. Let's hold a bit before casting too many more stones.
For the second kiss I must say that Kyousuke doesnt want the relationship end here.I dont think that they would walk home and consider nothing happened really,they live under the same roof,only obstacle between them is a thin wall. I wont be surprised if they crawl into each other's room at night and continue with their kissing(i dont think intercourse can happen because these two have limited themselves). I am pretty sure Kirino wont mind lol
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Old 2013-06-07, 02:36   Link #2407
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
See, and this is exactly why I call this resolution - and consequently the show - a failure, and this ending a mere cop-out. The story began on a relatively interesting promise, and initially I thought it was about exactly that: Overcoming the hurdles and resolve the tensions and relationships between the characters in some way. Instead, the show merely toyed with some developments, and then all of a sudden decided "okay, so this is where Kyousuke decides, and since there are no proper answers to the questions posed and no resolutions to the hurdles, we go back to square one".

I'm sorry, but romantic feelings just don't work this way. I genuinely question if the author simply has no experience with real life or ultimately was simply tangled in the contradictory web he weaved, but I increasingly suspect it's both.

Excuse me, but the spiteful and nasty self-centered way Kirino has dealt with Kyousuke throughout the entire show makes this whole pseudo-revelation "but I've loved him all time long" simply not credible. She was way too explicit and consistent with her continuous expressions of disgust. Kirino doesn't love Kyousuke, Kirino loves Kirino. This is also underlined in her eventual reaction to Manami.



You're making the case why this is a burning plane about to impact the ground where the pilot just jumped off on a parachute better than I could. The author tried to be consistent in making Kirino the target, but then realized that he could not make the puzzle pieces fit.
One, we're talking about the LN here, not the anime, Kirino is more balanced tsundere in the LN and and even in the anime she never really hated Kyousuke though it did play up her tsun side. (I wish they went with the direction the manga took and emphasized her dere side instead, but I digress) Ever since volume 4 people can see plain as day Kirino never saw Kyousuke as just a brother. By Volume 7 she was even getting desperate; people can see her frustration and her intense distaste for Manami, who we eventually see was the person who started the whole mess between the Kousakas. When Kuroneko let the cat out of the bag and revealed their hidden feelings they treated each other far better than ever.
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Old 2013-06-07, 03:08   Link #2408
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
No, you're missing this: there are two kisses.

1. At the wedding scene right before they "go back".
2. At the very end of the epilogue after they have ostensibly already "gone back" (where Kyousuke gives Kirino an unexpected kiss).

I've explained this a few times now, but every time you miss it.
I think I see now where our misunderstanding is coming from. I'll try to explain:

For me, the kiss or kisses (both) are to signify Kyousuke's "choice". It's a symbol that he chooses Kirino. The second kiss only underlines this choice - he still "loves" her. BUT. By "going back" or more correctly pretending to do so, the author dodges the bullet to explain how they're dealing with the problems - the stigmatization, the social backlash, their parents' reactions, all the likes. It reminds me of an old project manager joke for impossible tasks: You plan it all through, and then just add a step "here is where a miracle happens". Exactly THAT is the cop-out. The author capitulates and refuses to resolve the problems. That all "happens in-between and we don't see it".

Also, it just doesn't fit with my life experiences. That's not how romantic love works - especially not the self-centered kind that Kirino employs.

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Originally Posted by Lucarion View Post
One, we're talking about the LN here, not the anime, Kirino is more balanced tsundere in the LN and and even in the anime she never really hated Kyousuke though it did play up her tsun side. (I wish they went with the direction the manga took and emphasized her dere side instead, but I digress) Ever since volume 4 people can see plain as day Kirino never saw Kyousuke as just a brother.
Oh, I read the novel translations, too. No substantial change in my eyes. Kirino's continuous abuse of Kyousuke rings very true here. I wonder how many times she called her so-called "love" "disgusting" or worse. Her treatment of him has been just the same: Kirino bossed him around to solve her own problems and gives him verbal and physical abuse as thanks. I'll easily concede that she did develop a certain form of "protectiveness" towards Kyousuke, but it smacked more of "possessiveness" to me.

Please answer me this: When did Kirino do something to help Kyousuke? When did she express genuine appreciation for his and his efforts? When did Kirino forgo a selfish wish of her own for the sake of Kyousuke? When did she even show any shred of interest in Kyousuke's wishes?

Quote:
By Volume 7 she was even getting desperate; people can see her frustration and her intense distaste for Manami, who we eventually see was the person who started the whole mess between the Kousakas. When Kuroneko let the cat out of the bag and revealed their hidden feelings they treated each other far better than ever.
Yes, she grew irritable over the threatened loss of her possession (Kyousuke). Is that your idea of "love"?
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Old 2013-06-07, 03:11   Link #2409
AsunaChidori
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My theory is that when the 10 year later mini novel comes out it will show everyone and where they are in life. Willing to bet it will do a zoom out in the last couple pages showing Kirino and Kyousuke with rings on something of that sort. I mean am I the only one that doesn't mind the incest? You love who you love, can't really help it.

Though so far from the rumors and such this ending seems a little rushed or half hearted, really was expecting more. Hope to have resolution when everything is confirmed.
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Old 2013-06-07, 03:19   Link #2410
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Ever felt real romantic love for someone? If so, do you feel you can relate to this reaction?
Yeah, I remember relentless posting about how, once upon a time, he had to record some kind of video for the wedding of a girl he had feelings for. <_< So at least one person has captured the heart of our fair admin.

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Originally Posted by AsunaChidori
My theory is that when the 10 year later mini novel comes out it will show everyone and where they are in life. Willing to bet it will do a zoom out in the last couple pages showing Kirino and Kyousuke with rings on something of that sort. I mean am I the only one that doesn't mind the incest? You love who you love, can't really help it.
I do hope that the mini novel won't be anywhere near that subtle. Sometimes I wish that Japanese stories didn't gloss over things so much in the name of subtlety. The bottom line isn't the only thing that matters, after all... give us some substantial heartwarming romance to roll around in, mangakas.
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Old 2013-06-07, 03:27   Link #2411
Kakurin-san
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Please answer me this: When did Kirino do something to help Kyousuke? When did she express genuine appreciation for his and his efforts? When did Kirino forgo a selfish wish of her own for the sake of Kyousuke? When did she even show any shred of interest in Kyousuke's wishes?
Just out of the back of my head:

Volume 8, when she does her best to comfort him, and goes to great lengths to try to bring Kuroneko back.
Volume 1, when she thanks him (and then blushes) after Kyousuke's confrontation with the father over her Otaku hobby.
Volume 4, at the maid-event.
Volume 8, when she gives Kuroneko permission to confess, tells Kyousuke that Kuroneko really likes him and forces herself to accept their relationship.
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Old 2013-06-07, 03:34   Link #2412
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Excuse me if i may, but my mind is still going through some serious damage.
But i just wanna ask, in the opening of season 2 episode 1 in the anime, where it shows kyousuke and kirino back when they were kids and kirino wanted to take a bath together only to be rejected by kyousuke, did that part/flashback appear or was it mentioned anywhere in the novels? My minds is somehow blank as of the moment. lol.
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Old 2013-06-07, 03:44   Link #2413
Marcus H.
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^ The part where Kirino is talking is the part where present!Kirino takes over past!Kirino in his dream.

By the way, someone posted on /a/ on his thoughts about "Ten Years After":

Quote:
Ten years later...

Kyousuke, due to fraying his ties with his friends, ends up being a full-blown otaku, much more than Kirino ever was. He ends up sharing much of Kirino's merchandise. Although he was able to get decent grades in college, he became a freeter (see Kirino) shortly after graduating.

Kirino continues to pursue her career as an athlete, and slowly becomes less of an otaku, but she occasionally adds new merch to her collection. She financially supports Kyousuke's rent fees, and helps out in getting him part-time jobs to get.

Manami decides to permanently remove all of her contacts with the Kousaka family and moves to Kyoto, where she starts a "branch" of the Tamura sweets shop. Apparently, her kind personality becomes a facade for his customers, as she rarely talks casually with anyone.

Saori continues to be the moderator of Otaku Girls Unite!, and is the only bridge between Kirino, Ruri and Kyousuke. She still maintains her look, but is already eyeing on a new member which may fit as her successor.

Ruri focuses all of her efforts on becoming an otaku and decides to work full-time after graduating from high school to help with the Gokou family's earnings. She is still active in the Kuroneko Circle.

Ayase never forgot about Kyousuke and eventually used her parents' influence to track down Kyousuke's and Kirino's movements over the next three years. Eventually, she gave up on stalking and instead vows that "none of this bullshit between siblings" happens again.

Upon entering college, she studies law and vows to become a politician, pushing stricter rules imposed on incest.
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Old 2013-06-07, 03:46   Link #2414
Kakurin-san
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shironeko8 View Post
Excuse me if i may, but my mind is still going through some serious damage.
But i just wanna ask, in the opening of season 2 episode 1 in the anime, where it shows kyousuke and kirino back when they were kids and kirino wanted to take a bath together only to be rejected by kyousuke, did that part/flashback appear or was it mentioned anywhere in the novels? My minds is somehow blank as of the moment. lol.
That was a dream by Kyousuke, wasn't it? As for whether it is anime-only, I don't know about that one out of the back of my head.
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Old 2013-06-07, 04:08   Link #2415
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Yup, that's it. I don't know, i just found it to be something more of a flashback in dream form. But oh well, i'll probably just leave my assumptions to myself for now until the anime ends.
Anyways, those thoughts seems pretty much accurate, well most of them. It'd be natural if Kyou became a full blown otaku, after all that's happened, i'd be happy for Ruri if that what would happen to her, seeing as she would have been the most productive if that was the case and Ayase's part was, well, win. XD
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Old 2013-06-07, 04:27   Link #2416
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
For me, the kiss or kisses (both) are to signify Kyousuke's "choice". It's a symbol that he chooses Kirino. The second kiss only underlines this choice - he still "loves" her. BUT. By "going back" or more correctly pretending to do so, the author dodges the bullet to explain how they're dealing with the problems - the stigmatization, the social backlash, their parents' reactions, all the likes. It reminds me of an old project manager joke for impossible tasks: You plan it all through, and then just add a step "here is where a miracle happens". Exactly THAT is the cop-out. The author capitulates and refuses to resolve the problems. That all "happens in-between and we don't see it".
Well, again, I think we need more information about what issues were and were not dealt with in the novel itself. Making these sorts of pronouncements based off of limited, brief "action summaries" (that may not be complete or fully accurate) is prone to jumping to conclusions. It may be that the person making the summary didn't consider things important that would better inform this discussion.

I understand the concept of what you're saying, anyway, even if I personally can be more lenient on this issue depending on the way it's handled. I do see some reasons why an ambiguous/not-fully-resolved ending may have been preferred in this case.


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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Also, it just doesn't fit with my life experiences. That's not how romantic love works - especially not the self-centered kind that Kirino employs.
Keep in mind they're still awfully young. Teenagers in love do stupid things that adults wouldn't necessarily do, particularly when faced with all sorts of complications. Kirino's "selfishness" is also reflecting her lack of emotional maturity, and the rashness of Kyousuke's actions could be seen as the same.
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Old 2013-06-07, 05:15   Link #2417
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Honestly, next time people re-read the novels or re-watch the anime, there are basically three things to pay attention to:

a) Kirino's true feelings lurking beneath the surface (and the ways she tried to hide it)
b) Manami's true intentions lurking beneath the surface (and the ways she tried to hide it)
c) The way Kyousuke both falls-into and slips-away-from Manami's plans, and towards Kirino (often despite Kirino's brash/abrasive attitude).


And the key points to know are as follows:

Kirino:
1. Has been in love with Kyousuke since childhood
2. Became estranged from Kyousuke due to Manami's intervention
3. Is deeply resentful of both Kyousuke and Manami

Manami:
1. Has been in love with Kyousuke since childhood
2. Got closer to Kyousuke after she drove a wedge between him and Kirino
3. Doesn't want to lose Kyousuke to Kirino (and only Kirino) at any cost

Kyousuke:
1. Used to be a leader/go-getter
2. Settled on the boring life after Manami's intervention
3. Wants to win Kirino's affection back


Knowing all this now, I think a lot of things become a lot more clear.
??? i already know that. I mean something else with my reaction. I think you didnt understand me here. Sorry if i was not clear.
The points your are mentioning i have already conluded that a long time ago. So i am not surprised with anything that we know of volume 12 so far.

The comment that i made about Manami being a grandma etc is just a joke man.
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Old 2013-06-07, 05:37   Link #2418
Mentar
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Just out of the back of my head:

Volume 8, when she does her best to comfort him, and goes to great lengths to try to bring Kuroneko back.
Volume 1, when she thanks him (and then blushes) after Kyousuke's confrontation with the father over her Otaku hobby.
Volume 4, at the maid-event.
Volume 8, when she gives Kuroneko permission to confess, tells Kyousuke that Kuroneko really likes him and forces herself to accept their relationship.
I'll give you Volume 8, even though I want to point out that Kirino never really managed to "accept their relationship". See what happened afterwards.

Volumes 1 and 4 are mere "thank you"s for a huge huge favor Kyousuke did for her.

All things considered, there is not even a remote semblance of a balance between Kirino's behavior towards Kyousuke and Kyousuke's constant pampering of Kirino. Kirino is consistently the spoiled and ungrateful princess that all other characters are revolving around, trying to blow sugar up her rear end. I had some remote hopes that the story would end on a message from Kyousuke to Kirino being "I love you, and I care for you, but this one time, in the end, I'm going to let my wishes take priority over yours".

Alas, it was not meant to be. All Kirino, eternally, forever.

Fine, then.

*toss*
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Old 2013-06-07, 05:40   Link #2419
Sakura_Tsuki
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
^ The part where Kirino is talking is the part where present!Kirino takes over past!Kirino in his dream.

By the way, someone posted on /a/ on his thoughts about "Ten Years After":
What is the base of his claims? Did he have any proof for this?

If really this is what is gonna happen then, it is better not to read the 10 years after. The writter is practically killing the whole story and giving it the worst possible ending.
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Old 2013-06-07, 05:45   Link #2420
Sakura_Tsuki
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found this on 4chan. And it is funny to read. It is a short summary on how people reacted before volume 12 was out and after volume 12 spoilers were known. It really gives a summary about what really is going on:

Before vol 12:
>this is a novel for childrens they can't turn it into incest
>it's too popular they won't turn it into incest
>author have no balls to make it incest
>publisher have no balls to let this ending with incest
>they will turns out to be not-blood-related
>tokyo ban

After vol 12:
>the spoilers are fake
>they broke up after wedding the kiss in the final page doesn't count
>you have no evidence for the kiss in the final page
>no matter what they say I know they are not blood-related
>Manami is my waifu ;_;

Conclusion much people are MAD!!!!! and wont accept it!!!
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