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Old 2013-06-16, 13:45   Link #3741
Kakurin-san
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Originally Posted by seangel92 View Post
Where did Kyosuke say it?
He did not say something like that, was a joke by me. But Kyousuke is indeed more determined when it comes to the outside world, saying something like storming through the minefield, stopping Kirino from telling Manami about the agreement and the kiss in the end.

EDIT: @takuwelteel, I doubt anything definite will result from the ten years later short story. Besides, if you follow my line of interpretation, they do not return to being normal siblings at all. So only if you take the words at face value, do they return to being siblings, if you read between the lines then, at least in my view, they are not going back to normal at all. So therefore I personally don't see an insult at all.
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Old 2013-06-16, 13:52   Link #3742
seangel92
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Originally Posted by takuwelteel View Post
I've been digesting this ending for awhile now, and I still can't say whether I like it or hate it, so I'll go with indifferent for now.

Personally, I have no issues with incest, as they make for good and cute stories, however this one is different. When I came into this series about a year ago, it literally destroyed my expectations. I expected a series literally named in english as "My Little Sister Can't Be This Cute" to have incest and one thing I really liked was that it didn't. It was just a brother and sister with an estranged relationship at the start and the series was about them becoming closer, so much so that Kirino helped Kyousuke with Kuroneko just like he helped her early in Oreimo. It felt like they were coming very close brother and sister, and I really enjoyed that and when Kuroneko confessed to Kyousuke and he agreed, I was really into it.

It was a story that never felt like it would turn to incest, but as it went on, you had so many girls who loved Kyousuke and there was only one of him, so I knew many girls would be disappointed.

However, the last volume really changed expectations again. Not only did we get into an incestual type of relationship, but all the girls are rejected. Then, all of a sudden the two agree to become normal siblings after graduation. I kind of felt it was an insult, not only to me as a reader and watcher of the anime, but also to the girls in the story and the series in general. He goes out and rejects all the girls, confesses to his sister, than that relationship just goes back to normal? Kind of feels like a waste of time. All this build up and they just go back to "normal siblings." Just feels wrong and is insult to the girls who confessed to him and were rejected for his sister. It also has me asking "Why?" about the whole thing. Like why confess and then just go back to "normal siblings." There's no way going to back normal after all that anyways.

Of course, it doesn't help that series I've read and watched lately have ending horribly IMO. The Usagi Drop manga was one that ended similar to this, except it was more extreme and out of nowhere and I'm still bitter about that, as well as the Negima ending that I'm bitter against as well, though I understand the complications for it.

I guess I just wish that the author would have chosen a girl for Kyousuke beyond his sister. There are Kuroneko fans, Ayase fans, Maname fans, etc. among the readers and the chosen girl would make fans of the others mad, but it would at least be a choice for Kyousuke that people can respect, especially since the relationship with the sister was well and good. There was really no reason for the incest arc to further the relationship. It was good enough as it was. I also wish that the expectations that I got when I first read the story were kept broken and not reformed as they were.

So, those are just my thoughts. I'll keep on letting it stew and I'll wait for a DEFINITE conclusion when the ten year time skip comes.
Kyosuke still choose Kirino and Kirino still choose Kyosuke, the point is that they have to break up to not be separated by their parents and that the society don't ruin their lifes. A incest is not a easy relationship and they have to internalize their romantic feels to live together with their parents until they can be able to stay together without problems (I deduce it). They can't go back to normal siblings, impossible, I think that they want to be normal siblings to outside eyes but they gonna have some hints in secret (It's inevitable).

PD: I am sure that the "time skip" won't clarify anything.
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Old 2013-06-16, 13:56   Link #3743
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Originally Posted by seangel92 View Post
Kyosuke still choose Kirino and Kirino still choose Kyosuke, the point is that they have to break up to not be separated by their parents and that the society don't ruin their lifes. A incest is not a easy relationship and they have to internalize their romantic feels to live together with their parents until they can be able to stay together without problems (I deduce it). They can't go back to normal siblings, impossible, I think that they want to be normal siblings to outside eyes.

PD: I am sure that the "time skip" won't clarify anything.
That is exactly my conclusion on the story. A Incest route is not easy. To close it with a 100% clear happy ending.
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Old 2013-06-16, 14:08   Link #3744
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That is exactly my conclusion on the story. A Incest route is not easy. To close it with a 100% clear happy ending.
It would be hilarious if Fushimi writes other LN with 2 siblings moving to an apartment like roommates and in the past they had a romantic relationship but they break up and now they are reliving this feelings (Comedy, romantic, harem, +18 [Incest is for +18 in japan with sex or not]). I have seen autors writting 2 differents stories (Differents names, appearance, etc...) but this stories have a time connection between them.
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Old 2013-06-16, 14:18   Link #3745
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One thing that is clear to me about this novel. There is no possibility for them to end with somebody else. Kyousuke shot the door for other options and he didn't regret it and there is no evidence that Kirino showed interest in other man beside her brother. So why would she do it now? The author has closed other routes 100%. In volume 12.

I see the wedding ceremony. As a real wedding. A wedding that took place between them and is sealed in there hearths and not by law or society. The part of mikigami is important to understand this point of view. It is a secret between them that must not be shared with the world.

We don't know how it will go in the future and how it plays out. But them going back to full siblings, I don't think so. Maybe in society they are siblings but in there hearths they are connected in a romantic way. The kiss of kyousuke (even if it is like: he gets an A on the mock exam, she will do anything for him). This Is something that can't be tossed away just like that (looking for evidence). It has a purpose. And Kirino didn't reject it. After this point........................we Don't have a clue what happens.

But they will try to think for a way to stay together forever through life counseling.
Because like I said the doors are closed. Because they closed them completely to being able to choose something else. Besides if they separte (get married with sombody else). What the hell is the purpose of an agreement?

I think the purpose of the agreement is a security law between them to not destroy there future to being together forever. That is what they want. If Kirino wants all her wishes to be true that she had on her IPOD. Dating sombody else or ending living separete lifes. Is not the solution.

Here is the recording about what she asks about her future self. And Kyousuke also listend to this:

Spoiler for translation:


They thought about it together to solve this problems.
I know what you mean,yes I agree,they both will not love anybody of the different gender,they will never return to being ''normal siblings'',I myself said that and I'm sure that is the case,but I just wanted to interpret it from a different point of view looking for society difficulties,and well, Kyousuke may have betrayed his father's trust but he still says we have important family,friends etc.... even though he admits he will never make Kirino cry or get hurt,so its kinda contradictory here but yet again,they just can wait again when they become full adults,maybe move to another country where they can marry(I said about her work in Europe and due to laws,the Netherlands seemingly allows sibling marriage so they might live there) and about the ''life counseling'' that they will have when they go back home: They will discuss the issue about how they can be together.

Edit: I think ceremonies in Japan are not to be joked around with,looking what Kyousuke prepared he really meant this,again to society they are siblings,between them they are a married couple.

Edit 2: In the anime credits,now its fall,after fall comes Winter,I'll be waiting for the Kirino end!!!!
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Old 2013-06-16, 14:28   Link #3746
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Looks like, I missed something. Is there gonna be a short story about 10 years after? First time, reading about it. Do we have a release date, yet?
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Old 2013-06-16, 14:34   Link #3747
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Originally Posted by Solafighter View Post
Looks like, I missed something. Is there gonna be a short story about 10 years after? First time, reading about it. Do we have a release date, yet?
19th June,dont expect much tho.
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Old 2013-06-16, 14:35   Link #3748
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Originally Posted by Solafighter View Post
Looks like, I missed something. Is there gonna be a short story about 10 years after? First time, reading about it. Do we have a release date, yet?
It's out already I believe since it is bundled with Volume 1 of the second season. Don't expect any hints though, it may have vague hints but they will be able to be interpreted in different ways most likely.

I thought it was out 16th but maybe it's 19th like Wilshere says.
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Old 2013-06-16, 14:35   Link #3749
takuwelteel
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Originally Posted by Solafighter View Post
Looks like, I missed something. Is there gonna be a short story about 10 years after? First time, reading about it. Do we have a release date, yet?
I think it will come with the DVD of the anime.
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Old 2013-06-16, 14:37   Link #3750
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Originally Posted by Wilshere View Post
I know what you mean,yes I agree,they both will not love anybody of the different gender,they will never return to being ''normal siblings'',I myself said that and I'm sure that is the case,but I just wanted to interpret it from a different point of view looking for society difficulties,and well, Kyousuke may have betrayed his father's trust but he still says we have important family,friends etc.... even though he admits he will never make Kirino cry or get hurt,so its kinda contradictory here but yet again,they just can wait again when they become full adults,maybe move to another country where they can marry(I said about her work in Europe and due to laws,the Netherlands seemingly allows sibling marriage so they might live there) and about the ''life counseling'' that they will have when they go back home: They will discuss the issue about how they can be together.

Edit: I think ceremonies in Japan are not to be joked around with,looking what Kyousuke prepared he really meant this,again to society they are siblings,between them they are a married couple.

Edit 2: In the anime credits,now its fall,after fall comes Winter,I'll be waiting for the Kirino end!!!!
That is why I think they made that agreement (to protect themselfs from society and without hurting there parents there feelings). And thought about how they could stay together forever. Without hurting others in the process. It was a bit confusing because I quoted your opinion. But it was not intending to attack your story. But actually we have the same thoughts about the story ending. sorry my mistake.

Besides I life in the Netherlands. But incest couples are not allowed here.

So I have bad news for kirino and kyousuke

EDIT: In Netherlands, cousins marriage is not considered incest and is allowed (but not everyone looks to it that way, most people also see this as incest). But sister and brother that is another story. Even Netherlands doesn't allow that by law marriage.

Last edited by Sakura_Tsuki; 2013-06-16 at 14:57.
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Old 2013-06-16, 14:50   Link #3751
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Originally Posted by seangel92 View Post
It would be hilarious if Fushimi writes other LN with 2 siblings moving to an apartment like roommates and in the past they had a romantic relationship but they break up and now they are reliving this feelings (Comedy, romantic, harem, +18 [Incest is for +18 in japan with sex or not]). I have seen autors writting 2 differents stories (Differents names, appearance, etc...) but this stories have a time connection between them.
That would be totally awesome if Fushimi did that ahahahaha.

But let us also thake into consideration. That it is not easy to write two hits novels after one other. Not many mangakas and novel authors can do that.
But knowing that he could make Oreimo is such a nice story. I am looking forward for his next work. And have faith that it will turn again in a great story.
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Old 2013-06-16, 14:57   Link #3752
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Originally Posted by mayid View Post
That is why I think they made that agreement (to protect themselfs from society and without hurting there parents there feelings). And thought about how they could stay together forever. Without hurting others in the process. It was a bit confusing because I quoted your opinion. But it was not intended to attack your story. But actually we have the same thoughts about the story ending. sorry my mistake.

Besides I life in the Netherlands. But incest couples are not allowed here.

So I have bad news for kirino and kyousuke

EDIT: In Netherlands, cousins marriage is not considered incest and is allowed (but not everyone looks to it that way, most people also see this as incest). But sister and brother that is another story. Even Netherlands doesn't allow that by law marriage.
Aha,cousin-cousin marriage is considered incest??????? Hmm lol my parents are cousins. Different views of course, but thats new to me.
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Old 2013-06-16, 15:02   Link #3753
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Aha,cousin-cousin marriage is considered incest??????? Hmm lol my parents are cousins. Different views of course, but thats new to me.
Depends on degree and country.
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Old 2013-06-16, 15:05   Link #3754
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Depends on degree and country.
In my country, marriage between cousins are allowed.
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Old 2013-06-16, 15:08   Link #3755
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You're not alone. I find the "plot twists" and "sudden changes of heart" to smack into the "suspension of disbelief" problem. I don't object to the story ending so much as I don't think the author succeeded in making me believe in the parents, the other girls, etc. The manner in which the plot is wrapped up I simply find not to be believable so far. Manami's reaction is a bit more believable to me.

I call this the "bad puppeteer" effect. If a puppeteer is good, you forget they're there. If the puppeteer gets to the climax and all the puppets are somewhere on the stage that doesn't fit the ending - he jerks them to the proper location and you suddenly lose your immersion.

I haven't completely reached that attitude, but the more I read and analyze, the less I believe that parents, Ayase, Kuroneko, would behave in the way the last volume is written. I'll wait until it is all done before I decide whether to file it in the "ah, I missed a lot of key moments" or the "wtf broken ending" file.


Quote:
Originally Posted by takuwelteel View Post
I've been digesting this ending for awhile now, and I still can't say whether I like it or hate it, so I'll go with indifferent for now.

Personally, I have no issues with incest, as they make for good and cute stories, however this one is different. When I came into this series about a year ago, it literally destroyed my expectations. I expected a series literally named in english as "My Little Sister Can't Be This Cute" to have incest and one thing I really liked was that it didn't. It was just a brother and sister with an estranged relationship at the start and the series was about them becoming closer, so much so that Kirino helped Kyousuke with Kuroneko just like he helped her early in Oreimo. It felt like they were coming very close brother and sister, and I really enjoyed that and when Kuroneko confessed to Kyousuke and he agreed, I was really into it.

It was a story that never felt like it would turn to incest, but as it went on, you had so many girls who loved Kyousuke and there was only one of him, so I knew many girls would be disappointed.

However, the last volume really changed expectations again. Not only did we get into an incestual type of relationship, but all the girls are rejected. Then, all of a sudden the two agree to become normal siblings after graduation. I kind of felt it was an insult, not only to me as a reader and watcher of the anime, but also to the girls in the story and the series in general. He goes out and rejects all the girls, confesses to his sister, than that relationship just goes back to normal? Kind of feels like a waste of time. All this build up and they just go back to "normal siblings." Just feels wrong and is insult to the girls who confessed to him and were rejected for his sister. It also has me asking "Why?" about the whole thing. Like why confess and then just go back to "normal siblings." There's no way going to back normal after all that anyways.

Of course, it doesn't help that series I've read and watched lately have ending horribly IMO. The Usagi Drop manga was one that ended similar to this, except it was more extreme and out of nowhere and I'm still bitter about that, as well as the Negima ending that I'm bitter against as well, though I understand the complications for it.

I guess I just wish that the author would have chosen a girl for Kyousuke beyond his sister. There are Kuroneko fans, Ayase fans, Maname fans, etc. among the readers and the chosen girl would make fans of the others mad, but it would at least be a choice for Kyousuke that people can respect, especially since the relationship with the sister was well and good. There was really no reason for the incest arc to further the relationship. It was good enough as it was. I also wish that the expectations that I got when I first read the story were kept broken and not reformed as they were.

So, those are just my thoughts. I'll keep on letting it stew and I'll wait for a DEFINITE conclusion when the ten year time skip comes.
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Old 2013-06-16, 15:36   Link #3756
tommythecat
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You're not alone. I find the "plot twists" and "sudden changes of heart" to smack into the "suspension of disbelief" problem. I don't object to the story ending so much as I don't think the author succeeded in making me believe in the parents, the other girls, etc. The manner in which the plot is wrapped up I simply find not to be believable so far. Manami's reaction is a bit more believable to me.

I call this the "bad puppeteer" effect. If a puppeteer is good, you forget they're there. If the puppeteer gets to the climax and all the puppets are somewhere on the stage that doesn't fit the ending - he jerks them to the proper location and you suddenly lose your immersion.

I haven't completely reached that attitude, but the more I read and analyze, the less I believe that parents, Ayase, Kuroneko, would behave in the way the last volume is written. I'll wait until it is all done before I decide whether to file it in the "ah, I missed a lot of key moments" or the "wtf broken ending" file.
I think when it comes right down to it it is just hard to understand Kyousuke's abrupt change in feelings. I've known since the first season/early novels that Kirino likely harbored "inappropriate" feelings for her brother that isn't really in question here. When you see the events unfold through Kyousuke's perspective he does what he does because he deep down loves Kirino because she is family, you can certainly read more into that as he gets a little weird when begging Kirino to come home from America. However I felt like that was more about the fact they had finally started to get along again and he had missed that for so long that he didn't want to lose it again. That loneliness and sadness they both shared would strike again, even more so since Kirino cut contact with all her friends. That kind of plays into the final volume as well, the never wanting to be forced apart again so they can continue being happy.

Is it romantic love that truly drives him to do what he does in the end or that anxiety of losing touch with Kirino again?(talking about bringing Kirino back to America here not the end of 12) You can argue both but I felt the romantic part of his character development was seriously shallow, kind of like waking up and saying I now am deeply in love with my sister(another problem with there relationship is they've developed so many new feelings for each other over a relative short period of time that it is difficult to tell where the familial love ends and romantic starts.) So they have an overabundance of feelings for each other and it's hard to distinguish what is truly driving them along.

I'll end with this. I know they love each other and it isn't just "normal sibling" love but I think how they proceed into the future isn't going to be necessarily dictated solely by that romantic love for each other, just plain love.
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Old 2013-06-16, 15:58   Link #3757
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To make it clear to all who say that he got a very sudden change of heart: 1- He was lonely without her 2- He cares for her 3- He worries about her 4- He helps her by accepting her ''life counseling'' 5- He got jealous when she brought the fake ''boyfriend'' 6- In Volume 8 he said that ''the idea of not losing Kirino to anybody just surfaced'' 7- He cherishes her more than any other person(she is the number one person in his heart throughout the series). Knowing our Kyousuke being dense as hell,it took him long enough to realize that he loves her. Just replace his thought of ''I do these stuff because its natural for a brother to do it for his sister'' by ''I do it because I love her''.
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Old 2013-06-16, 16:53   Link #3758
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To make it clear to all who say that he got a very sudden change of heart: 1- He was lonely without her 2- He cares for her 3- He worries about her 4- He helps her by accepting her ''life counseling'' 5- He got jealous when she brought the fake ''boyfriend'' 6- In Volume 8 he said that ''the idea of not losing Kirino to anybody just surfaced'' 7- He cherishes her more than any other person(she is the number one person in his heart throughout the series). Knowing our Kyousuke being dense as hell,it took him long enough to realize that he loves her. Just replace his thought of ''I do these stuff because its natural for a brother to do it for his sister'' by ''I do it because I love her''.
Yeah, I definitely don't argue that those things can all be seen as his build up. The thing is though many of those things really are natural for an older brother to feel(source, I have an imouto). I think it's just hard for me to make the assumption that he was unknowingly in love with her while doing those things since many of them can be explained by love for a younger sibling. Now if Kirino wasn't his sister, yeah 100% agree with you. I suppose the act of doing all those things could have manifested his romantic feelings as they were at cold war so long he may have lost his sense of she is my sister it is my job to protect her, instead telling himself that while basically just plain falling in love with her.
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Old 2013-06-16, 17:16   Link #3759
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Originally Posted by tommythecat View Post
Now if Kirino wasn't his sister, yeah 100% agree with you. I suppose the act of doing all those things could have manifested his romantic feelings as they were at cold war so long he may have lost his sense of she is my sister it is my job to protect her, instead telling himself that while basically just plain falling in love with her.
There are a few things a brother would do, but he got beyond those from start, I mean if it was me (and I'm almost considered a siscon because of my good relation with my sisters...), in a cold war like that, if I found a cd/dvd or anything, I would have teased her for days with that thing. Instead Kyosuke in this one, he even made a "it's not yours" kind of reaction to not get her upset and accepted from start her extremely weird hobby.
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Old 2013-06-16, 17:29   Link #3760
takuwelteel
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Yeah, I definitely don't argue that those things can all be seen as his build up. The thing is though many of those things really are natural for an older brother to feel(source, I have an imouto). I think it's just hard for me to make the assumption that he was unknowingly in love with her while doing those things since many of them can be explained by love for a younger sibling. Now if Kirino wasn't his sister, yeah 100% agree with you. I suppose the act of doing all those things could have manifested his romantic feelings as they were at cold war so long he may have lost his sense of she is my sister it is my job to protect her, instead telling himself that while basically just plain falling in love with her.
I think this is probably the reason why it doesn't jive with me. Kyousuke seemed to care about the relationship with his sister, but any attempt to bond with her was thwarted by her, so when the opportunity with the hobby presented itself, he took it. He really wanted to restore the rift, and sacrificed so much to do it. Was some of his actions extreme? Yes. He went beyond what most brothers would do, but I think that's how much he cared about that bond. Because of this, I always felt that during the show that he loved her, but as a caring brother and not a lover. Combined with his relationship with the other girls, it never once crossed my mind that it would have went into an incestuous relationship, so to see it happen, especially in the way that it did, combined with what Vexx said about characters not acting like we usually know them to act, it's just hard to take in.

Of course, we might be having the same reaction if he chose another girl in terms of characters reacting as we don't expect them to.
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