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Old 2013-07-05, 18:34   Link #4081
iMACobra
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Originally Posted by Wilshere View Post
It cannot be considered incest tho,since no actual proof of intercourse is stated but heck people can be sensitive
Ok, let me rephrase. people don't like how they were in a relationship together (and the kissing) because they are biological siblings.

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Originally Posted by Wilshere View Post
I'm sorry for shattering people's hopes of this being a normal story of two hating siblings reconciling;it being mainstream with no sexual themes doesn't necessarily mean there is nothing ''abnormal'' going on. How dense can you be? A little sister playing little sister based eroge and possibly not having ulterior motives? Maybe you have been caught of guard when she shrugs it off by saying ''they are just cute''. This has always been a love story and you can see it from season two, the fact of the bro-conXsis-con thing makes it clearer. If anything, you can take hints from Kirino of possibly having these kinds of feelings towards him,it was made clear in the anime from her interactions and how she acts around when other girls are around him.
Are you talking directly to me? I'm confused. I'm actually talking on behalf of people from other forums who had trouble understanding why Kyousuke suddenly fell in love with Kirino and how this series turned into a romantic comedy when it wasn't from the beginning.

Last edited by relentlessflame; 2013-07-05 at 21:35. Reason: merge double post
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Old 2013-07-05, 18:44   Link #4082
Wilshere
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Originally Posted by iMACobra View Post
Ok, let me rephrase. people don't like how they were in a relationship together (and the kissing) because they are biological siblings.
I get you, but this is what the story is about, an incredible love story between the siblings. Blame the author for wanting Kirino to have a happy ending.

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Originally Posted by iMACobra View Post
Are you talking directly to me? I'm confused. I'm actually talking on behalf of people from other forums who had trouble understanding why Kyousuke suddenly fell in love with Kirino and how this series turned into a romantic comedy when it wasn't from the beginning.
No,not to you only but for the viewers in general. Its time to link the dots and clearly see where this is heading.
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Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2013-07-05 at 19:17. Reason: Please use the "edit" button to add content to your post instead of double posting.
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Old 2013-07-05, 22:27   Link #4083
kaigan
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Originally Posted by iMACobra View Post
Ok, let me rephrase. people don't like how they were in a relationship together (and the kissing) because they are biological siblings.
firstly, sorry to butt in, but i'll add a few words as well. there will be always people complaining no matter what the ending is. and it's actually a brave part of the author not to give in to aggravation to some sectors of the fandom to write what he actually wants. it's not his job to satisfy the vanity of everyone. to please all is to please none.

regarding siblings in a relationship, mind you, this is not something new. i'm sure this was discussed multiple times, if not here in AS, in other boards as well. siblings getting together has been with us since ancient times. japanese have izanami and izanagi. greeks have zeus and hera. egyptians have isis and osiris (not to mention cleopatra and ptolemy xiii IRL). literature with themes like this didn't rage upon but is considered as classic! and i also believe oreimo will be a classic in time.

to add, oreimo is not even incest as pointed earlier above by others. that should be 'more acceptable' to some. but then again, others think otherwise.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by iMACobra View Post
I'm actually talking on behalf of people from other forums who had trouble understanding why Kyousuke suddenly fell in love with Kirino...
you might not want to bother yourself speaking in behalf of other people who have trouble understanding the relationship between kiri and kyou. there are people who chose not to believe and understand. any attempt to cite evidence or reason will be in vain. their desire is much stronger than the author's intent, which is sadly in conflict with each other.

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Originally Posted by iMACobra View Post
...how this series turned into a romantic comedy when it wasn't from the beginning.
this is romantic comedy.

Last edited by kaigan; 2013-07-05 at 22:46.
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Old 2013-07-05, 22:32   Link #4084
relentlessflame
 
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Originally Posted by iMACobra View Post
But for him to truly fall in love with Kirino just came so abruptly in Vol. 12. There were really no hints that Kyousuke really truly, romantically loved Kirino before Vol. 12 came out (at least that I know of). That's why many people would always brush Kirino off to the side when it came to which girl would win Kyousuke (and also the incest).
This is something that has been discussed a number of times in this thread, but I guess the bottom line I would repeat is that the author was being deliberately tricky. It was written in such a way that someone could reasonably believe that all the romantic hints would be discarded in the end simply because they're siblings -- like, no matter how much they "love each other", it's really some other kind of "love". And it's made trickier because it's not like they cease being siblings just because they fall in love. Doing it this way kept the suspense very high because nobody could say for sure what was going to happen in Volume 12 until it was released.

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Anyways, I am saying this also to question if the end of the series was even good storywriting on Fushimi's part because it seemed like Fushimi just made Kyousuke fall in love with Kirino in Vol. 12, also revealing Kirino's secret messages in the same volume which we never knew about before this volume came out.
The important thing here is that the audio recordings had been properly foreshadowed, even if the contents were kept secret. We knew the album was there, and we knew the iPod was there. And also, you can go back and trace the steps of Kyousuke's transformation over the course of the story, really starting from the point that Kirino first leaves to go to America and he realizes how important she is to him. I don't think even he realized yet what that feeling really was until Volume 10 happened and he realized that he couldn't keep stringing people along without making his feelings clear. It was probably during the time when he was apart from Kirino (with Ayase taking care of him) that he figured out who he really had feelings for, but of course we don't get told until the last volume (to keep the suspense high).

At the end of the day, writing is about trade-offs. If the author had made Kyousuke's feelings even more clear than he did, there wouldn't have been the same suspense. It was written exactly on the line so that the last volume would be surprising, but still connect logically to the development of previous volumes. And preferences notwithstanding, I at least would argue that it shows the author had set this twist in motion a long time ago and was just being sly about it.

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Originally Posted by iMACobra View Post
I'm actually talking on behalf of people from other forums who had trouble understanding why Kyousuke suddenly fell in love with Kirino and how this series turned into a romantic comedy when it wasn't from the beginning.
Because of the above, I think this is the sort of story where knowing the ending influences the way you'd interpret earlier events during a re-watch/re-read. I think the story always was a romantic comedy from the get-go, but there was enough other things going on that you could ignore it in the subtext. This is also a common trait of the eroge that this story is parodying/emulating: the common route is often full of comedy and hijinks, but things become more serious in the second half as you start heading down a certain path. With this show, they didn't explicitly tell you from the get-go "hey, this is like a galge, and is going down a romantic path eventually", but you can see the flow transition particularly as you get into Volume 5 (episode 13-15 of the first anime season). (I noticed in the past that some of the people who found the transition more jarring had only followed the anime and actually somehow missed Episodes 13-15 of the original anime.)
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Old 2013-07-05, 23:39   Link #4085
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Ok, I understand you all but what happens in the 3 OVA specials is what really bugs me.
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Old 2013-07-06, 00:00   Link #4086
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The OVA is promised to be released in the future. We can guess all we want here, but it wouldn't change anything thought. My guess (and most people here) is that they will cover volume 12, maybe added some scene from previous volume.
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Old 2013-07-06, 00:39   Link #4087
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The main thing to remember about Kyousuke is that at times he is not a reliable narrator. He's flat out lying to himself...and to therefore to us as well. This is more obvious when you look at places in the story when the characters say, 'I hate you' when they really mean, 'I love you'. A good example of this is the very last time we see Ayase in the story, Vol 12 Ch 2 at the very end.

Quote:
After giving me a violent good bye, she smiled and said:

"See you later, Onii-san. I hate you the most."
Here's another example near the end of Vol 2 Ch 4.
Quote:
Both Kirino and Ayase looked at me with their eyeballs stretched out of their sockets.

“W… What outrageous things are you running your mouth with-mmph!”

In an instant, I hugged Kirino and smothered her face, cutting her off.

She wriggled and squirmed in protest, but I wrapped her arms around her back and somehow also pinned those down.

As I hugged her tight out of “proof” of our mutual love, Ayase stared at us, dumbfounded.

“W-W-W… What are you…?!”

Just like Ayase had done back when she had gotten angry, I went on and on without letting her speak.

“It’s just as it looks, Ayase. We love each other! That’s why we have to collect these stories of forbidden love! Don’t call our love for each other dirty! It’s literature, didn’t I say?! There are drawings of naked girls in there? There are passionate ero scenes in there? That’s not the true substance of these works! They aren’t as trashy as people like you claim they are!!”

As I continued to ad-lib, I gradually became more and more emotional, and soon wasn’t even conscious of what was coming out of my mouth… the line began to blur between where the act ended and where my true feelings began. Before I knew it, my mouth was moving unconsciously and the words were flowing out on their own.

“… Kirino’s hobby is what reconnected the sibling ties that had been broken between us. If I hadn’t found out about her hobby back then, we would have continued to have a cold relationship with each other. I couldn’t do anything to help the number one little sister by my side. I would say that it had nothing to do with me, and would only watch as my little sister cried…! So I’m thankful from the bottom of my heart! Thankful for all of this otaku hobby that you say is so dirty! Because this hobby existed, I was able to start a real sibling relationship with my little sister! And I stopped just standing by watching my little sister cry, making terrible excuses of how it didn’t have anything to do with me! … Can anybody dare to deny these feelings I have?! I’m not lying, these things are proof of our love for each other! So, just listen to me, because… I…”
A lot people believe that Kyousuke doesn't start realize his feelings until later, but he's lying to himself much earlier. During times of very highly emotionally charged situations, when we are angry and the like, the words that come out of our mouths tend to be what we truly feel deep inside. He even said it, "Before I knew it, my mouth was moving unconsciously and the words were flowing out on their own." And "the line began to blur between where the act ended and where my true feelings began" is another great example.

The reason I included the longer quote is because this a good example from Kirino's perspective as well. He talks about proof of their mutual love but Kirino's actions tell the true story. "She wriggled and squirmed in protest, but I wrapped her arms around her back and somehow also pinned those down." Kirino is not on Ayase's level but is no slouch. She is a very fit individual and I doubt that Kyousuke could have 'somehow' pinned her down so easily if she really didn't want to be. Another reason that I believe this to be true is Kirino never reacts violently or scolds him for this even if he is helping her with Ayase, normally she would get violent if he did something like this.
Quote:
“I… I… I thought about what you said back then… and then… umm… that is… oo… this is hard to say… s-so… please just listen?”

After that, Kirino resolutely raised her head, and faced me directly. Then, she gathered her strength.

Y-You…! W-What are you trying to say?

“I… a-also love my aniki… maybe.”

“S-S-Seriously?!”

-

“…What did you think I would say? Why are you getting all worked up over it? You gross siscon.”

-

“Wha….. t-t-t-thi…. this……………”

My mouth and eyes opened wide, I couldn’t do anything but stand there in mute amazement.

I mean, just look at my face! Dammit! Daaaammit! Daaaaaaaammmmiiitt!!!

This is impossible! This girl! ….! Crap…!!

My head was burning up, and I grabbed it with both hands, twisting my body harshly back and forth.

“Kyahahaha! That’s so lame! Y-You’re such an idiot… you were actually being serious, weren’t you?! Grooooss~~! Ahahaha!”

Laughing uproariously and pointing at me, Kirino finally wiped away her tears, and poked my stomach with her elbow.

“Come on, how long are you going to stand there looking like an idiot? Let’s go, you siscon!”

She pulled strongly on my sleeve, and lightly turned around. A daring smile appeared on her face.

-

“You promised to play me in Siscali, remember?”
Knowing the end now, we can see that this is clearly Kirino's first confession to Kyousuke. But she hides her emotions quite well from him, and from us, by saying something akin to "gotcha", and like the idiot/s he/we is/are, he/we believes that it was staged.

I truly wonder if she would have said it was a joke if his immediate response would have been, "And I love my imouto too." I think his hesitation, and the fact of a lot more volumes to come, is what led to her response being the way it was. I think even Kirino believed what he said to Ayase was from the heart, and this ending was her gauging his true response. He hesitated and so she didn't have a choice but to say it was a joke. But they both were very convincing, at different times I thought both 'maybe they do love each other', 'maybe they don't love each other.' It was very confusing but fun to read.

Last edited by Drakkar77; 2013-07-06 at 13:41.
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Old 2013-07-06, 01:02   Link #4088
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Actually, I think she is telling the truth at this point. Or rather, she is both loving and hating him at the same time.
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Old 2013-07-06, 03:35   Link #4089
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I'm surprised that they missed her first ''confession'' in S1. It would've made things somewhat clearer.

Edit: Just like I said and nearly everyone repeats, for those who found the ending surprising,re-watch/read and connect the dots and you'll get a clearer vision.
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Old 2013-07-06, 05:10   Link #4090
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Ok, I understand you all but what happens in the 3 OVA specials is what really bugs me.
They're not really "OVA specials", they're just the three final episodes: Episodes 14 to 16, the finale. These last episodes will simply finish the story and, as already announced, they're adapting the novels all the way to the end.

I'm still trying to guess exactly how they'll adapt the novels, but I'm supposing they might make Episode 14 a Kuroneko episode, Episode 15 follow the Christmas Date through to the confession and maybe the recordings, and Episode 16 be the confrontation, wedding and epilogue. They could throw a little bit more from Volume 11 into Episode 16 to help add a bit more context there too. I'm guessing that Kanako's scenes will be reserved for an audio drama with the last BD, and the "futon date" will be cut or only vaguely alluded to.

Obviously, though, these are just my rough guesses, and we'll see how they do it in August.
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Old 2013-07-06, 13:56   Link #4091
Drakkar77
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Originally Posted by Wilshere View Post
I'm surprised that they missed her first ''confession'' in S1. It would've made things somewhat clearer.

Edit: Just like I said and nearly everyone repeats, for those who found the ending surprising,re-watch/read and connect the dots and you'll get a clearer vision.
Agreed, I went back and checked the episode in question, #6 if I'm not mistaken, after I posted the above and I was surprised when all she asked him to do was play Siscalypse with her. It was pretty disappointing.
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Old 2013-07-06, 14:07   Link #4092
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Actually, I think she is telling the truth at this point. Or rather, she is both loving and hating him at the same time.
I don't think she every really hates Kyousuke but rather the laziness that he begins displaying, which is the same thing that starts the cold war between them. The depths of her love becomes more obvious when the reader finally gets to hear the messages to herself on the ipod recordings in the last volume.

I'm not saying it isn't possible she both hates and loves him but I think she loves him so much that she's sees his laziness as him slipping further and further away from her both romantically and brotherly. Unless you've lost someone you have extremely strong feels for, it's very hard to imagine how just that sense of loss can make you have feelings that seem like hate welling up inside you. It's the worst feeling of dread imaginable. Living for that many years with that feeling, I've very surprise Kirino didn't have a mental collapse. Even while suppressing it, it eats away at you...she is surprisingly strong willed.

Last edited by Drakkar77; 2013-07-07 at 15:27.
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Old 2013-07-06, 16:37   Link #4093
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Agreed, I went back and checked the episode in question, #6 if I'm not mistaken, after I posted the above and I was surprised when all she asked him to do was play Siscalypse with her. It was pretty disappointing.
It's episode 5 but you're close
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Old 2013-07-06, 18:56   Link #4094
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It's episode 5 but you're close
Thanks, bah 10 character min

Edit: @Wilshere, I was thinking about it and I don't recall any retaliation on Kirino's part for the incident involved in your avatar's photo. Other than incident w/ Ayase, and before they dated, were there even any more where he was in physical contact so closely in the story? I can't recall, there was the fake date wasn't there? I need to go back and read that. Given that she's a tsundere she seems to enjoy physical contact with Kyousuke a little too much in the story not to tip her hand. Wow, it's amazing what you finally notice when you know the end...

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Old 2013-07-07, 06:42   Link #4095
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Thanks, bah 10 character min

Edit: @Wilshere, I was thinking about it and I don't recall any retaliation on Kirino's part for the incident involved in your avatar's photo. Other than incident w/ Ayase, and before they dated, were there even any more where he was in physical contact so closely in the story? I can't recall, there was the fake date wasn't there? I need to go back and read that. Given that she's a tsundere she seems to enjoy physical contact with Kyousuke a little too much in the story not to tip her hand. Wow, it's amazing what you finally notice when you know the end...
Volume 8 Chapter 3 when she told him about her anime, followed by the awkward fall, her hugging him when on the bike(she had to,but she did like it) and the holding hands when they arrived for Kanako's performance.
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Old 2013-07-07, 10:15   Link #4096
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Re-reading at the moment (volume 3). The last chapter of volume 2. Damn, why didn't they animate that scene........
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Old 2013-07-07, 10:26   Link #4097
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Re-reading at the moment (volume 3). The last chapter of volume 2. Damn, why didn't they animate that scene........
Ah yes, that scene is incredibly cute. And looking back now, she was pretty honest in that scene... only to drop back into tsundere mode the second after.
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Old 2013-07-07, 10:36   Link #4098
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Re-reading at the moment (volume 3). The last chapter of volume 2. Damn, why didn't they animate that scene........
I'm sure she would've won on the fans by just her being honest and well, showing her cute side. She would've gained a lot of love as they do for her now,that the series is coming to a conclusion.
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Old 2013-07-07, 17:13   Link #4099
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Edit 3: The part with Kuroneko also makes no sense either. She's not going to tear up the Destiny Record if she finds out Kyousuke likes Kirino; her original drawing was of the two of them together after all. No, the whole thing makes no sense.
This was referring to the early "supposed" spoilers before the last LN came out. So was Kuroneko's act of tearing up her Destiny Record really out-of-character?

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This little bullet list is just the start of the dozens of reasons the author fails if this is indeed the ending. A writer *has* to resolve any trainwreck issues or the tall tale fractures.



Um ... no. He could have repaired his sibling relationship with Kirino and chosen Kuroneko or Ayase as a romantic partner. That would actually fit the story as it was developed. Reading through the volumes, he either failed to connect the dots to this ending or he connected the dots to a different ending. I'm not against a Kirino ending as such - I simply don't think he covered the bases in making it a plausible ending. It requires utterly jerking around the positions of several major characters with no transition.


I'm in this camp unless we get some VERY good buildup to the end - that the writer has utterly no experience with real people much less romantic love - and possibly doesn't know how to construct a story that actually connects from front to back.


Oh, we can blame the writer for screwing up, because you write a bleeping *storyboard* that marks the plot points of a story if you can write, like an outline. If he wanted a Kirino-romance ending, he didn't do the work of getting there. There's at least a half dozen unresolved issues that might get Kyou killed or jailed. There's the hairpin total change of attitude from several major characters required (not likely). I'll say it again - a Kirino ending would have been fine *IF* he had covered his bases. There's unresolved crap all over the place.


There's also the "Kirino-resolvedsibling + Kyou-Ayase or Kyou-Kuroneko" ending. Maybe it's my perspective but the Kuroneko relationship is the only non-sibling story arc that actually seemed like real love rather than passing fancy, somewhat because of the "like" and "care" parts.

Sigh, as Soverence notes - weak endings seem endemic to many LNs and manga. Though I'd say Toradora!, Spice & Wolf, and Love Complex! were pretty thoroughly well thought out endings. Most of this story was quite interesting, it just seems like something almost random was pasted on the end of it. It makes me wonder more often how little experience a good percentage of LN/manga authors have with actual other human beings.
Also, I was really wondering if everything Vexx said in this post really did make sense, as in he is saying that the author didn't really build up a story that would be a "Kirino-romance ending" before the 12th LN.
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Old 2013-07-07, 18:34   Link #4100
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This was referring to the early "supposed" spoilers before the last LN came out. So was Kuroneko's act of tearing up her Destiny Record really out-of-character?
Those early "spoilers" were really incomplete (the epilogue was even completely omitted) and somewhat biased in the way things were explained, so going back to comments made back then is a bit of dubious worth. In the context of the actual chapter it does make sense why she does it: because she had gotten too attached to what she wanted to have happen (rather than what her true intentions were initially), and that book became a book of memories about what is now an unrequited love. So her tearing up the book is an illustration of what Kyousuke is giving up to be with Kirino, and he has to stand there and take it with a brave face even though it's very painful to him (because he did love Kuroneko as well). So in the context of the actual chapter, I think it works just fine, and the imagery is pretty powerful. I think none of that was conveyed by the early summary, and so it seemed out-of-character when presented without context/explanation. I don't believe that any more. It represents the conflict in Kuroneko's original stated goal and her internal/"selfish" goal which had taken over, not unreasonably.

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Also, I was really wondering if everything Vexx said in this post really did make sense, as in he is saying that the author didn't really build up a story that would be a "Kirino-romance ending" before the 12th LN.
Well, it's an opinion, and many subsequent posts discussed this since then.

The story was written to keep people guessing all the way to the last volume. This requirement/constraint required "plausible deniability", and so readers could imagine (a few) other scenarios that seemed quite workable. But, by the same token, the scenario set-up with Kirino also has foundation throughout the whole novel series as well, it's just that people didn't necessarily think the author would choose to take things that far between them. The author was deliberately tricky by making Kirino a character who could never be honest about her true feelings, and Kyousuke a bit of an unrealiable narrator (whose true feelings were being masked/obscured due, among other reasons, to the consequences to him), again, to keep people guessing.

So I think the story on the whole does certainly support a Kirino-romantic ending. But, I also don't think it was the one-and-only possible way for the story to end. If the author had been less mysterious/tricky in his writing, I think it could have been written in such a way that was much more clear/obvious and would have been less of a "surprise"... but, by the same token, I think creating that sense of "surprise" was the point. But when you go back and read the rest of the story, knowing the way it will end, I think the pieces are in place to allow you to connect the dots.

But again, it's an opinion. And I would also point out that Vexx has posted revised opinions too as more details/further information were available (though not entirely changing his view). Digging back through those old posts is, again, of dubious worth. Opinions evolved over time as we became aware of more facts.
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