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Old 2011-04-28, 16:32   Link #1461
Guardian Enzo
Seishu's Ace
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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But don't you want her to get better? Do you want her to be an oddity her entire life, a curiosity - or would it be better if she had normal, mutually respectful relationships with other people?

No one is saying this is Victorique's fault - she was obviously mistreated as a child (though Grevil's role in this - for good or ill - is still unclear). The point is, for her to overcome these terrible things she lived through she needs to have a grasp of how people who didn't suffer through those things behave towards each other. If all she ever gets is condescension and enabling she's going to be a victim of that terrible childhood her entire life. If she's exposed to something healthier and gets an understanding of what it's like to have real relationships with people, she has a chance to live a much happier life.
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Old 2011-04-28, 16:50   Link #1462
grey_moon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
But don't you want her to get better? Do you want her to be an oddity her entire life, a curiosity - or would it be better if she had normal, mutually respectful relationships with other people?
I'm sure there are better ways of getting better then being physically dragged into a situation that she is not comfortable with, or being insulted by someone whom I'm guessing she might realise is after the person she cares about.

She was the person who has started healing herself with the help of Kujuo, I'm thinking of the scene where Grevil pointed out to really hurt him would be to get him to promise to stop loving Jacqueline. Also the epi she proved her mother innocent I would have thought would have gone a long way in healing her.

Can't see how anything in the last episode helping at all, apart from proving that physically bigger people can force you to do what they want no matter how much clever you are, people can be very nasty, people you care about don't always understand your situation and tables are much heavier then books....
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Old 2011-04-28, 16:53   Link #1463
Guardian Enzo
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If you think the way Victorique treats Kujo is acceptable, then we probably don't have any common ground on this issue.
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Old 2011-04-28, 17:03   Link #1464
grey_moon
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
If you think the way Victorique treats Kujo is acceptable, then we probably don't have any common ground on this issue.
Not at all.... I'm just saying that the actions of Victorique are understandable, not justifiable. I believe that we as good humans can empathise with other people's situations. We may not agree with their actions, but we can try to understand them and the reasons behind them.

This I feel is especially important when "judging" a character like Victorique.

Please note I do not feel that how Victorique treats Kujuo as being acceptable, nor do I feel the way that Kujuo treated both Victorique or Avril is good. Nor the teacher, Avril or Grevil, or the person who locked her up. I just sound like a whiney bi*ch if I posted about that... errr I did didn't I

My posts was just about thoughts specific to what I wrote about nothing more and nothing less. So if I thought how she treated Kujuo was acceptable I would have wrote it!
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Old 2011-04-28, 17:16   Link #1465
Guardian Enzo
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Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
Not at all.... I'm just saying that the actions of Victorique are understandable, not justifiable. I believe that we as good humans can empathise with other people's situations. We may not agree with their actions, but we can try to understand them and the reasons behind them.

This I feel is especially important when "judging" a character like Victorique.

Please note I do not feel that how Victorique treats Kujuo as being acceptable, nor do I feel the way that Kujuo treated both Victorique or Avril is good. Nor the teacher, Avril or Grevil, or the person who locked her up. I just sound like a whiney bi*ch if I posted about that... errr I did didn't I

My posts was just about thoughts specific to what I wrote about nothing more and nothing less. So if I thought how she treated Kujuo was acceptable I would have wrote it!
Fair enough. I'm just wondering what the bone of contention here is, then, because I think we agree a lot more than we disagree!

I think a review of the first couple of episodes with the benefit of hindsight reveals a lot about Victorique's situation, and her relationship with Kujo. At that point she was perfectly content to push Kujo away continue to play the role that had been written for her - the sideshow freak, the oddity, the curiosity. It was Kujo - due to his simple stubbornness, and probably also the fact that he empathized because the students also considered him a freak - who wasn't content to take that at face value and pushed Victorique out of her comfort zone. He forced her to let him into her life - and even to drag her out of her prison.

This is why he's a perfect partner for her - because he's everything she isn't, and vice-versa. He's a simple, straightforward and moralistic boy - a "fool" if you want, but a kind and old-fashioned one, then. But their relationship is at the point where it needs to grow beyond where it's been. Whatever the reasons are for Victorique's anti-social nature - and they're 100% valid - she needs someone to help her break free of the image her family forced upon her and become a complete person, rather than a stereotype. Avril absolutely should not have verbally attacked her, and her ignorance of what she was saying is no excuse. Kujo should have let Avril apologize and should have given more deference to Victorique's past traumas, and his stubborn and moralistic nature is no excuse. Just as Victorique should not have called Avril vile names and certainly not thrown a desk at her, and her own childhood traumas were not an excuse. There's plenty of blame to spare for all three of them. But if Victorique is going to overcome the chains of her childhood, her relationship with Kujo needs to go beyond one-sided verbal abuse and the "slave and master" comedy routine and become something with a measure of mutual respect. That's really the point I'm trying to make.

Last edited by Guardian Enzo; 2011-04-28 at 19:08.
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Old 2011-04-28, 20:32   Link #1466
Marcus H.
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Sorry to break the current flow of discussion, but Unity certainly reminds me of "I Want to Spend My Lifetime Loving You" from The Mask of Zorro for some reason.
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Old 2011-04-29, 15:20   Link #1467
Xenosnake
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Spoiler for Ep15:
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Old 2011-04-29, 15:55   Link #1468
Kanon
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Spoiler for episode 15:
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Old 2011-04-29, 16:03   Link #1469
Jarmel
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I laughed so hard at the part where they couldn't see the African in the dark because he was too dark. I never thought I would see that racist joke actually used seriously in an anime.

I wonder what way Victorique is going to be used? As a way of figuring out which side is going to win in advance? Possibly develop war machines? This was an interesting mystery although it dragged on a bit.
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Old 2011-04-29, 16:21   Link #1470
Flower
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
Spoiler for episode 15:
Agreed on both accounts. Definitely my fave arc thus far - things are getting interesting.
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Old 2011-04-29, 17:58   Link #1471
ars89
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Spoiler for episode 15:
completely agree
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Old 2011-04-29, 18:13   Link #1472
Kismet-chan
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Join Date: Sep 2006
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Very , very interesting how everything came together AND how it's tied to Victorique's conception. That's some fabulous story-writing.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
I'm a bit late, but I really like the new ending song. The song itself is very haunting and beautiful (Even if it's kind of lost something after listening to it about 500 times), but I appreciate it more for the message I think it conveys. The song and imagery together have the undertone of suggesting (To me anyway) that the time Victorique and Kujo can enjoy together is limited, that their peaceful days together are fleeting and won't last forever, that they're both moving unknowingly towards a rather grim end (Assuming they're both torn apart during World War II). The first ending song was good, but I don't think it has as much meaning or power as the second.
Yes! I completely agree. Plus, in terms of Lisa's vocals, she demonstrates a lot more power and control in Unity then she does in Resuscitated Hope (plus, overall, Unity just sounds catchier and more dramatic aka the rhythm flows better). The full version of Unity is soooooo good. I think I might record a cover of it; I love singing it. I don't think I can recall of another song that combines folk/Celtic-inspired instrumentals and Japanese lyrics so well.
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Old 2011-04-29, 20:22   Link #1473
Dralha
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Originally Posted by Xenosnake View Post
Spoiler for Ep15:
LOL Yeah that was good.
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Old 2011-04-29, 21:39   Link #1474
wandering-dreamer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kismet-chan View Post
I don't think I can recall of another song that combines folk/Celtic-inspired instrumentals and Japanese lyrics so well.
Fractale's ending was based on a Yeats poem (appropriate since the show was set in Ireland) and had some Irish sounding instrumentals but yeah, other than that I can't think of any others either.
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Old 2011-04-30, 01:12   Link #1475
~Yami~
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absolutely agree...
this is maybe one of the best arc since the mystery is complicated for me.... ^^

anyway, I hope we won't see another De Blois family soon enough... I still want to see Victorique and Kujo spend their time together

Scene about how Victorique want to take the mask off but she is too short is absolutely ruin the serious mood.... lol a lot at that scene......
finally hearing Cordelia's voice.... XD

I don't have any comment about racial joke since I don't see it as a joke....
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Old 2011-04-30, 01:45   Link #1476
Marcus H.
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Quote:
I hope we won't see another De Blois family soon enough...
Oh, that will be impossible. Seeing that Albert de Blois is already introduced (in fact, he has been introduced two times more in past episodes), he will be just as important in the plot as Brian Roscoe.
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Old 2011-04-30, 03:43   Link #1477
Friday
Im shy too...
 
 
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watching Kujo getting kicked and Victorique jumping for the mask.........

priceless!!!!!!!!

can someone do gifs for both of them......please
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Old 2011-04-30, 04:33   Link #1478
grey_moon
Yummy, sweet and unyuu!!!
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarmel View Post
I laughed so hard at the part where they couldn't see the African in the dark because he was too dark. I never thought I would see that racist joke actually used seriously in an anime.
Racist??? Does that mean all special forces who blacken their faces are racist? It is common sense that darker colours are harder to see at night. To try to make it into a racist issue is as bad as people who do make skin colour a racist issue.

*edit*
Being covered in mud from digging himself out of a mass grave would have made it harder to see him in the dark too no matter what the colour of his skin!

Spoiler for thoughts on epi 15:
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Last edited by grey_moon; 2011-04-30 at 04:55. Reason: another point
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Old 2011-04-30, 04:59   Link #1479
Ravenblitz
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Old 2011-04-30, 05:57   Link #1480
Pellissier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Friday View Post
watching Kujo getting kicked and Victorique jumping for the mask.........

priceless!!!!!!!!

can someone do gifs for both of them......please
Done! Both AnimeSuki friendly too.



+ 1 bonus

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