AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Retired A-L > Claymore


View Poll Results: Claymore - Chapter 107 rating
Perfect 10 21 14.89%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 14 9.93%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 16 11.35%
7 out of 10 : Good 20 14.18%
6 out of 10 : Average 8 5.67%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 2.13%
4 out of 10 : Poor 3 2.13%
3 out of 10 : Bad 2 1.42%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.71%
1 out of 10 : Painful 53 37.59%
Voters: 141. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
Thread Tools
Old 2010-09-05, 12:12   Link #1041
Angriest Angel
Join Date: Nov 2007
Good question. But those translations are often bad.
Before discussing that further someone has to translate what rubel really had said.
For example that miria reached her limits as a leader when she treated their comrade as mere war potential.
When i read something like that the whole translation is bad and questionable to me because what rubel really said was:

When miria stopped treating their allies as war potential she reached the limit of her leading abilities.
What means that she should have been ready to sacrifice a few of them as pawns for the greater good.
irvinethearcher is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 12:17   Link #1042
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Italy
From Rubel seemed like there have been previous #10's...if they were held within the org, how'd they die?
Probably lose control and terminated (like Elena,old n.46 if i'm not wrong),or maybe killed by the org since they lived too long and were becoming dangerous,or maybe they were killed in situations like Luciella's awakening....
MalakTawus is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 12:19   Link #1043
Angriest Angel
Join Date: Nov 2007
Before discussing that any further we should read the translation from someone who is really ABLE to translate it correctly.
irvinethearcher is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 12:44   Link #1044
Join Date: Aug 2010
Originally Posted by irvinethearcher View Post
Miria for example would have easily won the fight if she would have known about #10.
She would have dismembered the twins than killed number 10 and would have never released an ounce of yoki.
erm... if it was that simple then Miria wouldn't have lost. #10's power is nothing more than a mere weapon. by herself 10 cant do shit (and even if she could keep that up while fighting it would be no more than defensive maneuvering). miria could've simply beheaded all her opponents before 10 showed up & fight would've been over. but then that would not be miria. as galatea mentioned before, killing current generation to avenge their predecessors is pointless. miria's character would never allow that. in other words, the moment she decided to act alone she died.
MikeyGrey is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 13:28   Link #1045
Angriest Angel
Join Date: Nov 2007
simply dismembering would have done it and would have given her enough time to knock out number 10.
The greatest advantage of the org was that no one knew about #10's power.
remember she was immune as long as she was cloaked.
irvinethearcher is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 13:40   Link #1046
I <3 Teresa
Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
It still will be their greatest advantage since no one will be able to find out about her.
I <3 Teresa is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 14:19   Link #1047
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Originally Posted by MalakTawus View Post

I begin to think that you can't read.Reread my post again 'cause there is no contradiction.
Miria friends AREN'T IN DANGER AT THAT MOMENT!!!!!!!
All i said is that EVEN IF (i said "if") her friends where really in danger she would have felt the huge yoki........

So what?West is big you know?
Like Claire said it's not that just 'cause since they go west they'll meet Riful,they were just unlucky (or Claire was attracted by Raph.....or whatever other reason,it doesn't matter).
And on the contrary,the fact that A&B are going to attack Riful is theoretically another reason that Claire and company aren't in danger since those monsters are busy fighting each other.

No,this is all wrong.
Helen and Deneve aren't going to help Claire at all!!!
They are going to Cinzia so she can cure Helen's eye.

......................................wait a second!
Don't tell me that you consider "great danger" the fact that Claire and company are near the battle between Riful and A&B,'cause if that's what you mean than we have a misunderstanding.Even if Gala called that situation dangerous imo that's absolutely not dangerous at that time,i consider the situation "REALLY DANGEROUS" when the destroyer comes in action (and than Prissy),before that imo the situation is nothing special that Miria should really worry,Claire and friends can handle that without problem,or at least escape if things get hot.
Before the destroyer, Claire was at best in an hypothetical dangerous situation with a really low probability.
Let's just say we draw different conclusions from what is shown in the manga. You don't see Clare and Co being in danger for the reasons that I do not agree. Sure west is big and Alicia and Beth are intended to eliminate Riful. But do you take the chance that Clare and co will simply evade them and run away unharmed when Denev and Helen are no longer cloaked? If Denev and Helen is intercepted by either Ritful or Alicia/Beth since both parties can now detect them, Clare will not go help them? If she does go, regardless of whether or not Alicia/Beth is there to fight Riful, they are still in great danger of fighting one party or both at same time.

As for I can't read, yes I missed the last part of your quote about Miria sensing immense youki occurring after the fact. So I take back that your statements contradicting itself.

As for Helen and Denev, they may not be initially going to "help" Clare since they didn't know Clare is going to Riful's den solo and only know Clare is with Cynthia and Yuma. They are certainly going to meet up with them. My choice of word using "help" may be incorrect but it doesn't change the fact that it is their intention to meet up with Clare and Co. Saying their reason is to heal Helen is moot because they are still going to west towards Clare and Co. That's arguing semantics.

And you didn't address the other side of the equation - being that knowing what AF can do from Isley's fate and knowing the fact Org has created new weapons, the risk factor of going solo against Org should have escalated. Even if the odds of survival for Clare and Co isn't completely dire yet, you still don't charge into the Org knowing it still might be a suicidal attempt.

Your entire rationale is based on Miria cared for her friends so much that she does not want to put them at risk - which is different from Gooral and others that are arguing about Miria's motivations, but that does not make her suicidal. Even if you are convinced that Miria believed Clare/Denev/Helen etc are not in great danger, it is still out of character for Miria to charge into the Org solo knowing what she knows.
SagaraSouske is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 14:58   Link #1048
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
For now we don't know whether she would be useless against ABs or not, that's just your guess. You also can't know whether she can be used against more than one Claymore or not. Rubel was only speculating here. "If only", "you may" only mean that she would have higher chances of survival if she wasn't alone (which is no surprise).
Yes while we do not know if her ability can be directed at AB or multiple claymore. Rubel's words seems to indicate that way. And if Rubel's words are not reliable, then him calling #10 the trump card should not be taken at face value either. You can't hold one thing Rubel said as holy and another as only speculation.

The team that was sent to Teresa was just enough only because Priscilla awakened. I doubt the Org's intention is to have an awakened Priscilla and losing all of #2 to #5 when they dispatched them. Yes they did underestimate Teresa but by the same token Teresa is still the most powerful rebel claymore they had to eliminate. If you don't use your counter claymore then, when do you use it?

Your counter argument is focused on one point - that trump cards are not easily used. If you do not use it against the strongest claymore in the annual of history (the Org believe that even if they underestimated her), what is the point of even having such a trump card? Only hold in reserve until Org is physically threatened by Teresa? As I mentioned, the Org are not defensive minded in that way. They keep on experimenting and creating new things even at the risk of creating 3 AOs and twice with disastrous results. There is no reason for them to hold back a trump card such as #10 and not use it against Teresa. In fact, how do they even know how effective the trump card is unless they deploy it against a powerful rebel claymore? Even their soul link has to be continuously improved to the stage where they completed Alicia and Beth. It makes no sense to hold such a creature with direct counter to claymores without even testing it or trying to improve it.

As for Teresa not posing as much as a threat. The Org certain don't perceive it this way. Any claymores rebel against the Org must be eliminated. One can argue Galatea nor Irene are even less of a threat since both simply went into hiding. Yet the Org dispatched hunters after both of them. Any warrior they cannot control is a threat to the Org. The ghosts are the same except the Org only found out about them recently and they do not know about the knowledge and truth Miria possessed and shared among the ghost. To the Org, Miria is the same as any rebel claymores but from a power level point of view, the others were more powerful in the Org's eyes. So when Miria start her offensive against the Org, the appearance of this #10 just seems too convenient when it was never deployed against those that were more powerful.
SagaraSouske is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 15:01   Link #1049
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Italy
If Miria was a cold and calculating leader her attack to the org could be seen as "acting out of character",but since imo (like i already said) Miria care A LOT MORE for her friends than her own life and absolutely don't want to put them in danger,this situation was the only way that she had to end everything without involving others.
If can be said that Miria is incredibly intelligent,it can also be said that she is more emotional than intelligent (even if she tries to hide it),and that emotional side is what lead her to death.
Like i already said before:
"She did a stupid thing but imo she KNEW that she was doing a stupid thing,it's just that her fear to lose other friends was more important than using her friends to plan a more rational attack."

what is the point of even having such a trump card?
I'll use an analogy.
Mr.X has a car.His car has airbags.
Mr.X uses his car days after days,years after years,without making any incident,so untill now the airbags were never used.
Now,do you think Mr.X thinks that airbags are really useless?I don't think so.
MalakTawus is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 15:06   Link #1050
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
I wonder if this is a plot device to get Miria to meet Raki. The Org may well want to study why she's so powerful or some such.
Zsych is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 15:33   Link #1051
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: passed out inside a sea monster.
Age: 27
Send a message via Yahoo to FormerAbyssalone
I'm sure someone has already posted something on this but... The problem with the Illusion is when does it end? Even though we see both what Miria sees and what the audience sees, whos 2 say we're not seeing the illusion on the final page??

Now that is just my speculation though!
FormerAbyssalone is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 15:39   Link #1052
The Burned Man walks!
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Asspain
Age: 26
@ Sagarasouske,

I can thing of multiple reasons the Org could have not to send #10 against Teresa. I.e., maybe at that time the previous #10 had been killed one way or another (it's implied through the series that the Org periodically does 'purges' between their own ranks, sending to die warriors too 'problematic' and probably too 'old'. If they planned to get rid of Galatea, they also probably change the owner of number 10 from time to time) and the replacement wasn't still trusted enough to fight against a monster like Teresa (even if the MIBs underestimated Teresa). Another one: Rubel states that #10 always stays 'within the Org'... I cannot trust Mangastream's translation here, but seems like #10 is seen so precious by the MIBs that they never send her away from the headquarters, or she just has her 'territory' very close to Staff. What makes perfect sense 'cuz she's the ultimate defense against a rebellious attack. So even if my reasons are not correct, they wouldn't have sent her against Teresa because Teresa showed clearly that she planned to live with Clare... she wasn't going to attack the headquarters, it wouldn't have made no sense.

You keep saying that Yagi developed a 'perfect scenario' to kill Miria. While I can agree that this chapter could have been better (making it harder to Raftela to use her power against Miria), I can't agree about the scenario. The existence of a new pair of twins is logical. The existence of a warrior able to manipulate minds and create illusions, focusing that power in fighting against renegades and protecting the headquarters also makes perfect sense.

And anyway, I don't see Raftela as a 'gamebreaker'. Her power sure has its flaws (maybe it requires so much concentration that you cannot almost move) and against several opponents, unless heavily protected from harm (and the Org currently lacks the power to stop an assault from the remaining ghosts) it may be completely useless.

PD: About miria being captured and forced to meet Raki... oh jeez, I don't know why, but I can see the prison rape fanfictions coming
Korinov is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 16:02   Link #1053
Join Date: Sep 2009
i gave it a 1 out of 10
its been over a year since we've seen miria and she gets brutally killed within 2 chapters...i'd have rather gone another year without seeing her than have this happen, but anyway -
i'm not shocked that miria was killed after she decided to attack the organization alone, but this chapter was pretty ridiculous...i find it really hard to believe that the same character who researched the organization so in depth didn't suspect that even without alicia and beth the organization still had a few tricks up their sleeves...i don't even see what the point of redirecting the focus onto miria was
TheNumberThree is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 16:11   Link #1054
Angriest Angel
Join Date: Nov 2007
I am curious if there are many number 10's who have this function in every generation like the eye or if only raftela is able to do it.
Can someone translate what rubel said about raftela just to make sure?
The translation i have read on the net seems to be error prone.
irvinethearcher is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 16:30   Link #1055
Firefly/Serenity fanatic
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The town where Copernicus was born.
Age: 31
Where Rubel implied that her ability can't be directed at AB or multiple Claymores for that matter? He only said she was trained to fight other warriors (i.e. that's her main task as is armor-piercing shell's to pierce armor which doesn't mean they can't kill unarmoured people), not that she can't fight ABs. For ABs they have other weapons, probably more reliable than #10 but that doesn't mean #10 would be useless against them . The same goes for fighting several Claymores, she was trained for warrior-vs-warrior battles but we don't know whether she could influence more than one warrior. Plus AFAIK Japanese can't even recognize whether there's plural or singular form of a noun. Is it clear in the raw that she's warrior-vs-warrior warrior () or could she be warrior-vs-warriors warrior?
And I can believe in some things more than in others. Rubel would know whether she was MiB's trump card or not but he wouldn't know how well she could perform against ABs or multiple warriors if he hadn't seen it with his own eyes. AFAWK #10 was never used in real battle since she was always in HQ and they didn't have that many attacks (if she was used against Luciella it would explain why the organization wasn't destroyed and abyssal just left). But that's beyond the point since he never said that, you've just used straw man argument. That's why I don't like discussing with you, you're always (OK, often) trying to twist people's responses and even change your position. First you're saying that #10 is useless against ABs, now you're saying "we don't know it BUT"...

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
The team that was sent to Teresa was just enough only because Priscilla awakened. I doubt the Org's intention is to have an awakened Priscilla and losing all of #2 to #5 when they dispatched them. Yes they did underestimate Teresa but by the same token Teresa is still the most powerful rebel claymore they had to eliminate. If you don't use your counter claymore then, when do you use it?
Do I really need to answer that...? You use it for emergency situations only, when your HQ is attacked and all but 3 of your Claymores are left. I don't understand why are you still asking the same question when you know the answer yourself - they underestimated Teresa. Mucho. And for a hundredth time - dispatching #10 was too risky and she was too valuable to them plus she was supposed to be their secret weapon not sth commonly known, hence they wanted her to stay in HQ at all times.

Your counter argument is focused on one point - that trump cards are not easily used. If you do not use it against the strongest claymore in the annual of history (the Org believe that even if they underestimated her), what is the point of even having such a trump card? Only hold in reserve until Org is physically threatened by Teresa? As I mentioned, the Org are not defensive minded in that way. (...)
Korinov has answered that very well, I've answered that question too in my earlier posts and this one. There's no reason to repeat. As for testing it, you have a point (finally a good argument on your side) but the thing is BECAUSE Teresa was the strongest and BECAUSE she excelled in youki perception their previous test subjects wouldn't even compare to Teresa and #10's training wouldn't prepare her for this fight and they wouldn't risk her being killed unless they had to. Teresa wasn't good test subject, she was too strong. So sure, they could receive some valuable data if they sent her after Teresa but then again if they lost her or if they made it known to other Claymores (where the worst case scenario would be they lost her and revealed they can make such warriors) they would lose their trump card. In short - if they could train her without risking her life it would be preferred option, don't you think? Clare learned PYS by trying it on Miria first, if her first test subject was male AB it could end badly. It's the same principle here. You don't start playing chess with grand masters when you're a beginner, that's just pointless for both sides (of course I mean here that grand master wouldn't hold back). If the difference in power is too big you will lose before you learn anything. Also the question is, did they even need to test her further? Maybe they perfected her training and after that sent #10 warriors to the continent so they could mess up DoDs? Until Yagi tells us more saying it's stupid is premature.

(...) So when Miria start her offensive against the Org, the appearance of this #10 just seems too convenient when it was never deployed against those that were more powerful.
These more powerful Claymores didn't incapacitate almost all Claymores and attack HQ when it was most vulnerable. Besides, #10 would be a bother to Rafealla since she could be sensed (and taking suppressant pills would make her useless).

@An4rchy99 and Korinov - nice posts. Also very good analogy An4rchy99 .

Last edited by Gooral; 2010-09-05 at 16:45.
Gooral is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 16:35   Link #1056
♥ Ophy~chan ♥
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: In a 2D paradise
@ Sagarasouske,

There is a difference between internal threats and external threats. If you even look at the power of the AO they were left like that for 50 years or so before the org took any action against them. This was not only due to the problems dealing with them in power wise but also lacks a true motive in their agenda. I am sure during Teresa's rein why didn't they use her and some other bunch of Claymores they felt threatened to be eliminated by the enemy like what they did with Claire? The reason is the circumstances changed when Isley acquired Prissy and started to move out they felt the needed to take action now as their movement and gathering of AB threatened not only other claymores but villages aswell. Same way when Teresa defected she was declared a threat. But not an internal one. Obviously they underestimated her but looking at how no.10 operates and her level of power. To send some who can only fight when sensing yoki aura release is a bit redundant if the org has rarely seen the target use yoki don't you think? I have laid out a bunch of other reasons with rational arguments in another post here. I know why we all feel its just a plot device to eliminate Miria, but if you look at the other implications it would make sense, the problem we all felt that way is due to the forced ending.

EDIT: Another analogy to simplify things. Imagine the org had mines. Now where would they plant the mines? outside Rabona hoping Gala would step on it? or somewhere near where Teresa was? OR would they rather plant them somewhere around HQ where they WOULD know would be much more of a use it it ever came to it?

@ Malak.

I share your sentiment in saying Miria is emotional. I think everyone is too focused on her exterior clam composed self. It is not wrong to say she is like Clare where she doesn't want her vendetta to become a problem for her friends. And at the point of time Miria left on her kamikaze mission, there was no implication that Deneve and co was in trouble or headed for trouble. Whats more theres many reasons a lot of us put together to clarify why she went to attack alone on the org.
An4rchy99 is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 16:57   Link #1057
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: The Netherlands
Lol @ all the people who think killing off a character (that they like) in a anti-climactic manner is bad writing.

Miria was given a once in a lifetime opportunity to take down the org. She only had a limited time frame to put an end to everything. So yeah she couldn't have calculated all the possible setbacks.

Sure, in retrospect knowing what we know now about the situation in the west and the power of the number 10 claymore. It was stupid, but I personally disliked the deaths of Teresa, Easley and Riful more. Her death wasn't a crowing moment, but really this is not a shounen where every death of a major character has to have a direct impact on the fighting forces of the enemy.

As long as her friends mourn her death and feel inspired by her life. IMHO it doesn't even have to have a direct influence on the plot itself.
Repelsteeltju is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 17:18   Link #1058
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
@Gooral, yes it wasn't mentioned that whether or not #10 is good against ABs. But specifying it as a counter claymore pretty much points out that her specialty is against other claymores. She may not be useless against AB or AO with her ability but it would have to be limited. Otherwise she would not be referred to as counter claymore. As for multiple claymores, Rubel basically stated that she is doomed because she didn't bring any allies, which suggest while #10's abilities will still be strong, having multiple opponents can break the hold #10 has on a single target.

@Gooral and Korinov, the rationalization of why #10 wasn't sent against Teresa make more sense then my attempt to question why it was not sent. However, it is still too convenient for it to be revealed at this point and time and using Miria to demonstrate #10's power. Her ability and utilization is specific. Something that should be saved as last line of defense by the Org should not be just against claymores but should deal with AOs as well. What if Priscilla showed up at the Org instead? Or Miria somehow awakened herself then show up at the Org? What do they do then? Why can't something else be the trump card instead of this #10?

@An4rchy99, the threat analysis makes sense, but the elimination of Miria still doesn't. I don't dispute Miria is emotional. But she keeps her emotion under control in order to achieve her goals - which IMHO is first save other claymores, second revenge on the Org for what they did to claymores, not the other way around. The implication that Clare and co are in danger were presented in Galatea's explanation to Tabitha. And no matter how emotional Miria is, she is not a suicidal type.
SagaraSouske is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 17:22   Link #1059
Let's play a game!
Join Date: Sep 2006
Why not send #10 after Teresa? Aside from the possibility that #10 wasn't available at that time due to various reasons, I think it's primarily because they -wanted- to send Priscilla.

Priscilla was expected to eventually become more powerful than Teresa. I can easily see the motivation to want to train someone like that against the strongest possible foes. Short of sending Priscilla against an AO, Teresa was the strongest easily accessible opponent, and conveniently decided to go rogue at the same time. What better opportunity to try to bring out Priscilla's own strengths? Plus there's the advantage of her complete yoki suppression against an opponent that is excessively good at detecting yoki.

In other words, there were compelling reasons for them to use Priscilla against Teresa, with the others as support for the strike force, with better general experience. Scenarios:

1) Send Priscilla first. Priscilla wins. Rogue element eliminated, Priscilla gains valuable experience.
2) Send Priscilla first. Priscilla loses. Learn from the mistake, and use #10 in a followup strike. If #10 loses, leave Teresa alone until a bettter weapon can be devised.
3) Send #10 first. #10 wins. Rogue element eliminated, but no particular gain for the Org.
4) Send #10 first. #10 loses. Lose special trump card for no particular gain. Still have to send Priscilla, who will have a more difficult time (Teresa being forewarned), and thus more likely to lose/less likely to gain the experience they wanted.

Sending #10 second loses less than sending Priscilla second. #10's abilities are somewhat unique, and certainly unexpected. Even if Teresa knew she was being hunted, it would still be possible to get the drop on her. Sending Priscilla second is a much weaker option since Priscilla is just an 'ordinary' warrior. Yes, she can suppress her yoki, but there's still a very high chance that she would have to fight Teresa normally, and if Teresa is being paranoid after #10's attack Priscilla's chances of winning drop dramatically.

Considering all the outcomes, it's most logical that they'd send Priscilla.

Why not send #10 after Irene? Because Irene had suppressed her yoki to the point that she was ridiculously difficult to detect. You don't send someone like #10 on a meandering journey throughout the lands just to hope that she'll come across the desired opponent. She also doesn't appear to be very capable of fighting solo, so she'd have to have backup to assist her as well. Overall you'd be allocating several important resources for a project with no definite end, while also not being able to draw on that resource if someone attacks HQ. Also, you can't keep an eye on her and moderate risks of #10 herself going rogue. Bad choice.

Rafaela was better suited to that task, as a general wanderer who was quite capable of taking out most opponents solo, being tied with very well-known, specific objectives/motivations of her own (her sister).

Why not send #10 after Galatea? Same problem as Irene, compounded with the fact that Galatea was an Eye class sensor, and who had experience using powers similar to #10's.

In general, the apparent limitations on her mobility while using her powers (from the images in this chapter), and the inability to capitalize on the opponent's weakness while using the powers (other than possibly manipulating unconcious bodies), makes it seem that #10 is best suited to be used as a fixed artillary kept for defense. It's also appropriate for the limitations on her power, that it's strongest when the opponent's emotions are strongest. Teresa living quietly in a little village with Clare would hardly have the same emotional buttons to push as a Claymore who was motivated enough to actually attack the Org headquarters.
Kinematics is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 17:23   Link #1060
Thread Hijacker
Join Date: May 2009
Location: In a hole, I just need to dig myself out
Originally Posted by Sleepy
I've read the interpretation which said 'yoki synchronicity' which is interesting because right there you have a reason to see why the org really wanted to get rid of Cynthia, who uses the same skill set for healing purposes which we've seen Yuma copy.
I don't have to ask yourself how far the Organization must have planned ahead; I always assumed the main reason for killing off Cynthia was liking her job too much - put simply, she was a happy girl who loved to help people, which didn't sit right with them.

I guess it depends on how early on they knew this No.10
"You know, their are as many ways to live as their are people in this world...and each one deserves a closer look."
Shiek927 is offline  
Closed Thread

claymore, manga

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:12.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We use Silk.