2011-03-09, 00:21 | Link #1621 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
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You guys are dismissing the fact that Kyoko never really wanted to kill Sayaka in the first place. You can't take everything Kyoko says at face value. If she really wanted to kill Sayaka she wouldn't have attempted to hospitalize her in episode 5.
Kyoko only wants to get Sayaka out of the way because she thinks she can't handle the job. Think back what she said to Madoka in ep9. edited: ok I don't think I'm assuming too much... I think what I said is correct.
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2011-03-09, 00:47 | Link #1622 |
Uncaring
Join Date: Sep 2010
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The turning point for Kyoko is the revelation where they are all just puppets to their soul gem. At this point, Kyoko, Sayaka and Homura are all the equivalent of a new race/species (depending on how you gauge the value of mental vs physical transformation).
One thing about all human nature is that differences create chasms but also brings those of the same group together as they identify with each other. Note how Kyoko was so strident on telling Sayaka they are the only ones aka non human. Telling Sayaka her backstory was an attempt to bridge the gap and to convince Sayaka (and her own self) that her thinking of living only for themselves only is the correct path. In the end i think Kyoko is "fixated" with Sayaka because Sayaka is so much like her younger self before her father killed everyone, when she was fighting for "good" and fluffy kittens and all that. She wanted to prevent Sayaka from suffering the same falls she did. Just befiore the end, her monologue was on "i understand how you feel" showing how deeply she identified with Sayaka (whether it was just all in her mind or they were really alike does not matter here) |
2011-03-09, 00:49 | Link #1623 | |||||
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And then you go on to quote a post that you made that totally contradicts your current post.
You said it yourself: You don't go from killing someone for two days and then befriending them the next. Do you agree with your own statement here or not? Quote:
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Kyoko knows that Sayaka loves Kamijo. She then threatens to remove all four of his limbs, which is... extremely cruel and harmful to say the least. Many would say that Kyoko was acting evil here. Then one day later she wants to have a civil conversation with Sayaka, and become friends with her? And you see nothing odd about this? You see nothing the least bit forced or contrived about this? Quote:
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2011-03-09, 01:08 | Link #1624 | |
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How would handling Kyoko's character more "naturally" avert any tragedy? If she was never "derailed" and continued to play the "antisocial violent girl" archetype after the Soul Gem revelation, she would likely kill Sayaka at some point. This would cause Kyoko to become Madoka's sworn enemy, easily forcing Madoka to jump into a contract with Kyubey. Given how often the fact that Madoka will have omnipotent powers when she's an MG is shoved down our throat, this doesn't really increase Kyoko's chances of survival, either. By taking Kyoko in the direction that it did, the show made her a more sympathetic person. I don't understand why someone would complain over her becoming a better character. Last edited by Hagoshod; 2011-03-09 at 01:19. |
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2011-03-09, 01:19 | Link #1625 | ||
On a mission
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What's not logical? Throwing away your life in a suicidal gambit with no reasonable chance of it working AND bringing Madoka who's a walking target along probably counts. Hell, even Kyubey's like "lol wut" to her plan. By doing that and dying, she's screwed the rest of them over. Would it not be better to deal with the common threat first, and work things out? Quote:
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2011-03-09, 01:19 | Link #1626 |
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I'm fine with the general direction that Kyoko's character took. She certainly was a more likable character in Episode 9 than she was in Episode 6.
I just think it could have been handled a fair bit better. Tone her down a bit in the early going and the transition is easier to buy. Make it calm efficient pragmatist to a caring person rediscovering earlier ideals, and not vicious psychotic to a caring person rediscovering earlier ideals. The latter is a fair bit harder to swallow, imo.
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2011-03-09, 01:28 | Link #1627 |
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Kyubey was the entire reason she came up with her plan. He went out of the way to stress how Magical Girls "defy all logic" and are "unpredictable" in his conversation with her. This means Kyubey intentionally gave her false information, since Magical Girls are COMPLETELY predictable. Desperate girls are granted wishes, they're given powers, they use those powers to fight Witches, their powers become corrupted and they turn into Witches themselves, and more Magical Girls are required to fight them. It's a fixed logical system. Yeah, it defies real world logic, but so does practically everything in the story's universe. In its own context, there's nothing unpredictable about it.
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2011-03-09, 01:29 | Link #1628 | ||||||
Crossdressing Menmatic
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Where you live... the question is, do you see me?
Age: 30
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But Kyoko no longer considers such acts as despicable... it is merely part of her routine as a Puella Magi. She lets people die for her own sake. And she will certainly kill people for her own sake. The transition between death battle to motivational speech did not feel forced when I first saw it. Logically, it probably is inconsistent of Kyoko to suddenly switch sides. However, it's not unconceivable... at the end of episode 6, Kyoko was holding a lifeless Sayaka by the throat. Kyoko could have killed Sayaka then, but chose not to attack Sayaka when she was helpless. Maybe she felt sympathy for Sayaka's ideals after hearing what Kyubey had to say. Quote:
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Kyoko looked angry that Sayaka was in her way, but did not hold her in hatred. Kyoko gave Sayaka a chance to run away, and even tried using hostage threats to make her leave. Unfortunately, that only made Sayaka angry as well. |
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2011-03-09, 01:39 | Link #1629 | |
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Ok, so there MIGHT be a solution. But any thing one could think of is being ill conceived. And gambling on this extremely small thread of hope (that was probably picked out of a hat) is worth losing everything else? And risking Madoka's life too on it? (Which is of course is something else annoying about the show). This is no better than a compulsive gambler risking his life savings in the hopes of striking it huge. And same result, too. The only way I can explain her actions is that she was so in shock from what happened to Sayaka that she became delusional and overridden with guilt and became desperate for a solution. It still doesn't reflect well on the storytelling to me. The net result is we waste a character who could have been developed further for a cheap tragedy and we gain the inevitable disaster of the next few episodes. Unless they really are that stupid, then I have no comment. Compare this to Sayaka, who's fall was pretty much set up as soon as she became an MG and thus makes complete sense, and you might see why I am not impressed with Kyoko's fate.
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2011-03-09, 01:50 | Link #1630 | ||||||||
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What is your counter to "You don't go from killing someone for two days and then befriending them the next."? I don't think that you've effectively dealt with this very basic truism at all. Plot progression that goes against this very basic truism is at the very least odd. Quote:
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Again, I think that your stance here is baseless. Quote:
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Call it something other than "hatred" if you will (I myself offered up "contempt" as an alternative), but it's an awfully strong emotion, whatever it is.
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2011-03-09, 02:30 | Link #1631 | |||||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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I have no problems if a reviewer doesn't like some of these developments. But if he claims that they weren't explained while they clearly were, it devalues his opinions. The whole article was way too faulty and oblivious to merit more than a "sheesh, you should really watch it first". |
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2011-03-09, 03:11 | Link #1632 | |
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2011-03-09, 08:30 | Link #1634 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
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Kyoko is like a chihuahua . She barks a lot, but her bark is worse than her bite. I wouldn't take Kyoko's comments about Kamijou seriously, but rather see it as symbolic of the way she's learned to protect herself from the vices of society.
Last edited by Solace; 2011-03-09 at 09:43. Reason: Cutting quotation down for size versus response. |
2011-03-09, 09:48 | Link #1635 | ||
Me at work
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To fight them?If so what makes you think a magical girl has to fight them?
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2011-03-09, 10:27 | Link #1636 |
Art Block Specialist
Join Date: Jun 2007
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taunts with sarcastic remarks are often the best when terrifying the newbies.
Coming from a game community that's hostile to the newcomers, I know what it's like. Yes, Kyoko did threaten to "break off all 4 limbs". Now think of it from another point of view. You see a noob using the first ability wrong and still hoping for the best. What's the best way to crush their idealistic naivety? Exposing to them that their hope are just empty air, and then laugh at them. Kyoko sees that what Sayaka truly wants and fail to wish that way, which is why she proceeds pointing out the discrepancy between the two in a cynical fashion. Considering her background, it's not hard to understand that she is able to use black humour in her everyday speech. However instead of being deep in thoughts Sayaka decides to have another duel with Kyoko. Why did we think that Kyoko is going to follow up with her taunt? Is it because they had been fighting almost to death in ep5? Sarcastic cynicism is fun if you know how to use it properly. In some way Kyoko is also wearing a mask, as a cynical person. And I'm still waiting on the confirmation that a familiar by itself kills people.
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2011-03-09, 10:33 | Link #1637 |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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I think people are misunderstanding one aspect of the fight between Sayaka and Kyoko. Kyoko only said to let the familiar go so it could become a witch. She didn't outright attack Sayaka, but she definitely was testing her naivety.
But in the end, both provoked each other into the fight because in both their minds at the time, they thought their way was the best way. She wasn't as bloodthirsty as some of you portrayed her to be. And Sayaka was willingly fighting her because she thought Kyoko was wrong. Although her transition may have been a little "rough," I do feel Mentar pretty much hit all the points about her character well in his last post. My biggest complaint about Kyoko was simply that there was no need to throw away her life the way she did, and this scene could've been handled much better. The hand of the writer was too obvious in this scene, where it was basically telling the viewers "Yep, she needs to die here for the plot" rather than making it flow naturally from the character, which was very possible. Although given that this series is so short and they're constrained with time, it's a forgivable flaw.
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2011-03-09, 11:16 | Link #1638 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Neo-Venezia, Planet Aqua (Mars)
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I just wish there are more 26-episodes series nowadays. I think the creator has miscalculated and underestimated the popular response they get. |
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2011-03-09, 11:29 | Link #1639 |
I Miss NEET Life
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost
Age: 44
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It's not much the number of episodes that counts but rather the pacing. You could have atrociously paced series whether they are 12-13, 24-26, or over 30 episodes. Angel Beats, Nanoha StrikerS and Blood+ are three series of those mentioned formats that suffered greatly from poor pacing. I think that the writer AND the director contribute greatly to the quality of a series, as far as the pacing goes, the writer to give a direction to the plot and the characters and make it run smooth, the director for the best use of scenes and cinematography.
About Madoka, Shinbo and Urobochi, I personally think that they have been doing a good job, and managed to make what some people gripe about more forgivable than what we have seen in other series like those I named. |
2011-03-09, 11:37 | Link #1640 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Neo-Venezia, Planet Aqua (Mars)
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PS: Oh crap.... We're too slow. Ridiculous speed.... Ludicrous speed!!!!! (Somehow I just wanted to say that o_O) |
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despair, hope, madoka magica, magical girl, urobuchi gen |
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