Ichigo and Rukia? or Ichigo and Orihime?

[BleachOD]

Originally Posted by X_Danny_X

brings tears to my eyes, so true man and preach on when it comes to the Rukia/Ichigo pairing. brilliant post.

they are the best of friends and are close like brother and sister.

also, BleachOD's signature got me thinking. during the end of the Soul Society/Rukia arc, when Ichigo was saying his goodbye to Rukia, Orihime was there. If Kubo intended for Rukia and Ichigo to have something, he would of put more emotional sadness and certainly not have Orihime there with you.

Kiddo he wasn't content. It hurt him. Inoue was cut out...when she was right behind him before...I posted that...ages ago.

Spoiler for LOOK AT AGAIN.:

Stalker girl disappears. See the whole page devoted to her saying she is staying. It's like that with only them to add emphasis on the characters and their emotions. It's barren and stark.Kubo said he purposely draws like that so you can focus on the intensity of the characters emotions and not the background. See the words..."I remember now. Why I wanted to save you so badly" Whaddaya think that means? LOOK AT HIS FACE!


Rain and Rukia...again. This is love...

Originally Posted by Royal_Devil

No, Ichigo also seems to treat Inoue like a sister too. In fact, I'd say he treats Rukia more like Karin and Inoue more like Yuzu.

How come you are right on point when it comes to UlqHime and so off on Ichiruki...

[MalikIshtal]

Originally Posted by X_Danny_X

As for Ichigo, Ichigo has shown no feelings for neither. But since he spent sooooooooooooooooooooooo much time with Rukia, it is a safe bet to rule her out of any possible pairing since nothing happend between for all that time that they shared with guts, sweat, and tears!!!!!

Not exactly, there is always a chance for anything to happen with proper writing and a believable scenario to push the romance forward. So don't count Rukia out just yet, it's not over until the last chapter of Bleach is finished.

Originally Posted by amirali1985

Both the kidnappings caused him a lot of emotion.......but when Rukia was kidnapped it did hurt him a lot more personally. I guess you could argue that it was because he blamed himself...........but whatever the reason, Orihime's kidnapping was nowhere near as traumatic for him.

It seemed less traumatic because the writer decided to focus more on Ichigo's reaction to everyone going "Sorry she is a traitor, she is SOL" and defiantly going off on his own to save her, alone if he must, because Soul Society was deemed unreliable. Not to mention Rukia was taken away right in front of him, whereas Orihime was already in Hueco Mundo when Ichigo found out what happened. He just had a hunch something was up because he noticed his wounds were healed.

[BleachOD]

I just realized part of your username is the male version of my name.

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by BleachOD

I can accept your opinions...but why are you ignoring the fact that Kubo keeps telling you...Ichigo and Rukia are the ones who love each other...

Because he has not. It's that simple.
Rukia treats Ichigo just like she treats Renji, her oldest and closest friend. She tended to act quite a bit diffrently around Kaien, someone I belive no one will ague that she had at least a small crush on, then Ichigo, although he reminds her a lot of him. As for KT giveing hints I could point out that there are huge hints for RenjiXRukia ( Renji" is literally translated as "second love"(Kaien being Rukia's first); Rukia's odd association with red: she comes from the southern district of Inuzuri (south being direction of the Red Pheonix, suzaku (朱雀) which is colored red and the red gate), she is nearly killed by a Red Pheonix, her sister, Hisana, has scarlet in her name, Renji has red hair.

And Ichigo treats everyone more or less the same.

for more fun and intresting facts about some of the names check out
http://www.bleachforums.com/showthread.php?t=4637
heh the Retsu in Unohana Retsu means "violent" many of those jokes about her make a bit more sense.

Originally Posted by Royal_Devil

No, Ichigo also seems to treat Inoue like a sister too. In fact, I'd say he treats Rukia more like Karin and Inoue more like Yuzu.

So very true.

[cloak_and_dagger]

*Off topic*
Rukia gets kidnapped, Ishida gets kidnapped, now Orihime gets kidnapped. I'm not compaining about the monotonous theme because the show was about a lot more than that, but if Bleach goes past Hueco Mundo, who the heck next? Chad? Kon?

[X_Danny_X]

Originally Posted by BleachOD

Kiddo he wasn't content. It hurt him. Inoue was cut out...when she was right behind him before...I posted that...ages ago.

Spoiler for LOOK AT AGAIN.:

Stalker girl disappears. See the whole page devoted to her saying she is staying. It's like that with only them to add emphasis on the characters and their emotions. It's barren and stark.Kubo said he purposely draws like that so you can focus on the intensity of the characters emotions and not the background. See the words..."I remember now. Why I wanted to save you so badly" Whaddaya think that means? LOOK AT HIS FACE!


Rain and Rukia...again. This is love...

How come you are right on point when it comes to UlqHime and so off on Ichiruki...

kiddo? calling me hentai first and now kiddo?

dont you see his smile in his face? he was a little surprise at first for her saying that she wanted to stay but he was fine with it.

dont you see the rain has stopped, it means he is not sad anymore and he is smiling. rukia is safe and he is okay with her decision! Because of Rukia, Ichigo's RAIN has stopped!! He is okay, smiling and happy at the end.

He did not say "I love you" but "Thank You" when everything was said and done.

They both thank each other. Thats what it meant. Yeah, he remembers why he wanted to save her so badly because Rukia changed his life for the better! Both parties changed their lives for the better.

There is no love!

[X_Danny_X]

Originally Posted by MalikIshtal

Not exactly, there is always a chance for anything to happen with proper writing and a believable scenario to push the romance forward. So don't count Rukia out just yet, it's not over until the last chapter of Bleach is finished.

i dont know what the future holds but this is shounen, and so far the past has shown no love. there is no official couple, the only love we have seen was Orihime to Ichigo. every thing points to Ichigo and Rukia being close friends like sister/brotherly type of relationship.



[/QUOTE]

[MalikIshtal]

Originally Posted by X_Danny_X

i dont know what the future holds but this is shounen

Just because its Shounen doesn't mean romance can't be added. Unless I missed somewhere in the Shounen commandments the one that says "Thou shall not have romance".

Originally Posted by X_Danny_X

there is no official couple, the only love we have seen was Orihime to Ichigo

If you have read my previous posts I already pointed out there is no official couple in Bleach as of right now.

Originally Posted by X_Danny_X

every thing points to Ichigo and Rukia being close friends like sister/brotherly type of relationship

That is your interpretation of their interactions, others will argue otherwise. Like I said in a previous post

Originally Posted by MalikIshtal

sure she cares for him and they had a lot of scenes that can be seen as declarations of love or good friend looking out for Ichigo, depending on where you stand with it

and

Originally Posted by MalikIshtal

the scenes are ambiguous and can swing either way, they were written like this on purpose. So that way whatever the writer decides all the building up can be seen accordingly.

Originally Posted by BleachOD

I just realized part of your username is the male version of my name.

Really, which part?

[Sinta]

First all I should say that I have a problem with “specific acts” analysis which is essentially what most of you are doing, we can’t always get a clear picture of relationship dynamic because character interaction isn't always consistent; now don’t get me wrong these are all pieces of evidence that should go into a conclusion but this isn’t a mathematical formula, you can’t say that Inoue’s interactions Ichigo takes away from Rukia’s; you need to understand that Ichigo/Rukia/Inoue relations aren’t mutually interdependent. This isn’t an “Effective love triangle” (which implies that if Ichigo doesn’t end up with Rukia/Inoue that he’ll end up with the other girl) each relationship is “Island” unto itself. Meaning that each needs to be examined to determine the likelihood. Now that doesn’t mean you can’t compare; you can, that is how you determine which is the “stronger” relationship, but arguments that are pro-inoue by being anti-Ichigo/rukia or vice verse are not EVIDENCES that a certain relationship will come to past; they are based on a false premise. As far as i can see most of you are just arguing against Ichigo/Rukia and not for Inoue/Ichigo. Thats not how it works.

I will give you an example,
(I have seen this any number of times)

Argument; Ichigo and Inoue are going to get together because Ichigo and Rukia are like brother and sister.

Do you see the flaw? Just because Ichigo and Rukia relationship is platonic (which is what this is saying) doesn’t mean that Inoue and Ichigo will end up together. The fact that Rukia and Ichigo aren’t romantically attracted to each other, doesn’t mean that Ichigo is attracted to/love Inoue

I think I have made my point.

Sidebar, as far as I can see this argument has been made several times. I will come back to it.

Here is the problem with pairing debates in a story like this. The outcome of the relationship is not the "point" of the story and therefore creates a great deal more opportunity for manipulation. That being said it is very important to quantify the nature of the debate placing value on the components and trying to adhere to a structure as maintaining your points with that structure will be the only way to conserve any sort of semblance of balance and understanding.

So we need to set parameters for our discussion. Well how do we do that? We do that by confining the issue to ONE (or maybe two) topics. So this debate isn't WHY you like Ichigo/Inoue or Ichigo/Rukia; it is which couple is the MOST likely. I think most of you are ok in this department. Next you have to use appropriate patterns and tools of analysis, I say this because if you don't you lose all creditability and people will just end up ignoring you. I remember an individual who was famous for this on other forums. He would post seriously random stuff and then pull out the most outrageous and idiotic interpretations in favor of the pairing that he liked. I told him there is something very important that you have to remember about a discussion like this. That everything (issue) has a spin, but don't over spin it or you lose creditability. You use a reasonable person standard based on formal logic. What would a normal person pull out of this interaction give the application of logic? That is why it is important to focus on those chapters that most people view as something worth discussing; again this will narrow your focus.

Next you have to use appropriate evidence to make your point. I go back to the individual discussing a minute ago as an example. One time in a debate, he posted pictures of Inoue holding Kon (I believe it was a scene right before the friends left for SS to save rukia) and said this is great evidence of Inoue/Ichigo, Kon is Ichigo's property, Inoue is holding that property, therefore Inoue is actually holding Ichigo and he therefore loves her. Note, evidence is not evidence if most people won't bring forth a similar explanation or interpretation. Relevancy is something that is discussed all the time in the law, the Rules of Evidence which I was just discussing, are the rules that govern the admissiability of the evidences you are trying to use to prove your point (case) in a court of law. If you are going to post something as evidence then you need to lay a foundation as to why it is relevant to the issue at hand, that way you can convince people that the evidence should be taken into consideration as the tier of fact works out the likelhood of your conclusion. Finally remember that each piece of evidence is part of a WHOLE you can’t take on piece of evidence as an island unto it self. Think of a brick wall, your whole case (point/conclusion) is that wall. Each piece of evidence goes to the whole. That is how you will win your case.

All that being said, BleachOd has done just that. If she were offering this to a jury or her peers who hadn't seen bleach before. I would say she won her case. Those of you, and you know who you are, who keep asking for "evidence" obviously don't understand the nature of evidence and its value in debate. There are two types (this is coming from a law student; I know what I'm talking about) real evidence or physical evidence, and circumstantial evidence. Minus a confession or a physical display there is very little real evidence in bleach, but that doesn't mean there isn't any evidence to support their position. If the foundation is laid correctly, which BleachOD did as far as i can see, circumstantial evidence is just as good as real evidence. People go to jail on circumstantial evidence peatsake, you have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, but it happens. Why couldn't she prove ichigo and rukia's love through the same manner?

I will add my opinion to the mix. Who is mostly to hook up as of right now? Rukia and Ichigo, it isn't even close. I have done a lot of analysis on the subject; examining everything from the literary trends in manga to the specific instances of interaction I will give you a few piece of evidences. (But only a few as this already a long ass post)



Example,

Argument:Kubo's plot foundationally favors rukia and ichigo in terms of a eventual romantic pairing.

Explanation: Because many other mangka's, many of which he, himself said that admires follow a similar patterns. Countless other manga follow a similar course, not because its cliche but because its a formula that works. it constitutes good writing if you follow something similar.

Evidence in support:

The status quo arguement- the girl who disturbs the status quo at the beginning of the manga is the one who usually wins. She is the main character and the one people get attached to. Changing it half way through is hardly ever done and even more rarely works. Anime that have similar themes as bleach that is the case. (Shana, Shakugan no Shana, Chidori, Full metal panic)


Shounene leads Argument - a male shounen lead and female shounen lead (and yes rukia is the female lead despite the focus on Inoue right now, Kubo said it himself in recent interviews) usually develop some sort of romantic attraction. (Code Geass, Elmenader Glad, Girls Bravo, Chrono Crusade, Inuyasha, Demonbane, Buso Renkin, Samurai X. Shakugan no Shana, Full metal panic, Zero no Tsukana Tusbasa Chronicle The list goes on!!)



Again while evidence is circumstantial in nature meaning that it takes argument and logic for the point to be made clear It doesn't make it any less valid.

With inoue, as far as her and Ichigo I think Kubo, at this point, will have a hard time convincing people that inoue really has a chance. He's wasted the opportunities he's had. Rukia on the other everything has been very steady. Their bond is undeniable and the only reason we don't know where their feelings lie is because kubo hasn't wanted to tell us yet. I think he's doing his on purpose as the reason many people read bleach is because of Ichigo and Rukia's interactions.

I said I would return to the brother/sister argument. I would like someone to explain to me how Ichigo treats rukia like a sister. Ichigo has sisters, and rukia has a brother. I have never seen Ichgio treat rukia like he treats Karin or Yuzu; same for rukia, I have never seen rukia treat ichigo how she treats byukuka. (Can you see Rukia hauling off and smacking Bykuka?) IF that is the case, show me how they are brotherly/sisterly. I'm curious.

[Nu Gundam]

Originally Posted by Sinta

All that being said, BleachOd has done just that. If she were offering this to a jury or her peers who hadn't seen bleach before. I would say she won her case. Those of you, and you know who you are, who keep asking for "evidence" obviously don't understand the nature of evidence and its value in debate. There are two types (this is coming from a law student; I know what I'm talking about) real evidence or physical evidence, and circumstantial evidence. Minus a confession or a physical display there is very little real evidence in bleach, but that doesn't mean there isn't any evidence to support their position. If the foundation is laid correctly, which BleachOD did as far as i can see, circumstantial evidence is just as good as real evidence. People go to jail on circumstantial evidence peatsake, you have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, but it happens. Why couldn't she prove ichigo and rukia's love through the same manner?

Hypothetical: You have two Suspects for a homicide case. Suspect A, and Suspect B. There are two witnesses, Witness A and Witness B. Witness A testifies that he saw Suspect A near the location where the homicide was committed. Witness B testifies that he saw Suspect B commit the murder.


Barring a lie, mistake, or any other events that would cast doubt on either testimony, Which one has the stronger case?

[Sinta]

Originally Posted by Nu Gundam

Hypothetical: You have two Suspects for a homicide case. Suspect A, and Suspect B. There are two witnesses, Witness A and Witness B. Witness A testifies that he saw Suspect A near the location where the homicide was committed. Witness B testifies that he saw Suspect B commit the murder.


Barring a lie, Which one has the stronger case?

Depends, but everything else being equal witness b of course, but that is assuming they are good witnesses to begin with and aren't bias, or mad, or mistaken. Witness B could seen something but due to circumstance made a mistake. maybe the light was poor or maybe your witness is a child and doesn't know what the hell is going on. A eye witness doesn't mean you automatically win. You still have to lay your foundation as to why this person should be believed. The creditability of a witness is always a material fact to your case. Cases are made and broke on that very fact.

An eye witness is still just a brick in the wall that is the case you are trying to make.
Anyway, whats your point all romances, at least mutual romance, is circumstantial so i'm not sure what you're getting at? You did have a point right?

[Nu Gundam]

Originally Posted by Sinta

A eye witness doesn't mean you automatically win. An eye witness is still just a brick in the wall that is the case you are trying to make.

Well, Obviously, my point was lying in the strength of the case. In which their is NO solid basis for Ichigo and Rukia. It is impossible to make a correct statement regarding romantic feelings between the two without starting it "In my opinion" or another subjective phrase.





Edited the first post to more appropriatly convey my point.

[Sinta]

Originally Posted by Nu Gundam

Well, Obviously, my point was lying in the strength of the case. In which their is NO solid basis for Ichigo and Rukia. It is impossible to make a correct statement regarding romantic feelings between the two without starting it "In my opinion" or another subjective phrase.





Edited the first post to more appropriatly convey my point.

I disagree, everything in plot from the development to the specific interactions is designed to take them to a romantic relationship. There is plenty of solid basis. But thats beside the point, BleachOD just did exactly what you said she couldn't. But first back up, we narrowed our discussion remember. BleachOD made the case and I gave the conclusion. Ichigo and rukia are the mostly couple and are in love. That is the statement, she gave the evidence to back it. I think her case is very strong, as do most bleach fans considering most believe they are in love and will give similar analysis. If you disagree give a counter analysis and theory. She used the evidence avaliable, gave sound analysis and a conclusion. Again if you disagree give a counter argument following that path. Thats how you win your case. Just saying that her case is weak doesn't do anything; no judge or jury isn't going to accept that. Here I will help you. You don't believe that Ichigo and Rukia are romantic right? Give me a definition of romance (the elements of romance) then give me the facts (the details of the manga). Then apply the elements (of romance) to the facts (of the manga). That is how you do legal analysis. I think it can apply here.

Originally Posted by kagato3

Because he has not. It's that simple.
Rukia treats Ichigo just like she treats Renji, her oldest and closest friend. She tended to act quite a bit diffrently around Kaien, someone I belive no one will ague that she had at least a small crush on, then Ichigo, although he reminds her a lot of him. As for KT giveing hints I could point out that there are huge hints for RenjiXRukia ( Renji" is literally translated as "second love"(Kaien being Rukia's first); Rukia's odd association with red: she comes from the southern district of Inuzuri (south being direction of the Red Pheonix, suzaku (朱雀) which is colored red and the red gate), she is nearly killed by a Red Pheonix, her sister, Hisana, has scarlet in her name, Renji has red hair.

And Ichigo treats everyone more or less the same.

for more fun and intresting facts about some of the names check out
http://www.bleachforums.com/showthread.php?t=4637
heh the Retsu in Unohana Retsu means "violent" many of those jokes about her make a bit more sense.

I'm also gonna have to disagree with this statment.

Spoiler for manga chapter 269:

Renji is constantly being equated with Byakuya, her "dying" scenes show this, Ichigo on the other hand has a frame by himself. If Renji and Ichigo are equal why aren't they set up equally? Seems like that argument has holes in it to.

Here is a link to what I was talking about.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/269/05/

Chad and Ishida = Friends
Byukuka and Renji = Brothers
ichigo = romantic interest


Renji means "second love" but are you trying to say that rukia didn't fall in love with Renji in the 80 years they spent with each other then fell in love with Kaien, meets ichigo, then falls in love with Renji. Yeah there is nothing to imply that. If Rukia loved Renji, it was from before. She loved Kaien, now she loves ichigo. That makes alot more sense.

[Nu Gundam]

Originally Posted by Sinta

I disagree, everything in plot from the development to the specific interactions is designed to take them to a romantic relationship. There is plenty of solid basis. But thats beside the point, BleachOD just did exactly what you said she couldn't. But first back up, we narrowed our discussion remember. BleachOD made the case and I gave the conclusion. Ichigo and rukia are the mostly couple and are in love. That is the statement, she gave the evidence to back it.

No.


He or she has given their opinion on the matter. Not proof....As none exists to be given. All OD has posted has been deductive and, as I pointed out earlier, completly subjective material.

[X_Danny_X]

Originally Posted by MalikIshtal

Just because its Shounen doesn't mean romance can't be added. Unless I missed somewhere in the Shounen commandments the one that says "Thou shall not have romance".

maybe so, but it takes a back seat to all the action and the killing! there is rarely any love and from what i seen, Ichigo and Rukia are not going to be a couple if things keep going the way they are going!




sure there is romance, IchigoxOrihime has a better a shot since one half party already admitted for it to happend. all it takes its Ichigo compared to IchigoxRukia were both parties have never mentioned anything about love or had a romance scene dedicated to the pairing.

If you have read my previous posts I already pointed out there is no official couple in Bleach as of right now.

i was just supporting my statement about shounen with that little statement, it was a supporting detail sentence to my main point.

you could of mentioned the no couple part or not, it wouldnt matter since i wasnt even responding to that part of your post.

That is your interpretation of their interactions, others will argue otherwise. Like I said in a previous post

hence the existence of this thread. though the ichigoxrukia fans are reaching a bit though from what has happen so far. hopeless romantics!

[Sinta]

Just because evidence is subjective doesn't mean its not proof. She offered evidence and analysis which is the definition of proof. But lets walk through this, From dictionary.com
Proof [proof] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.
2. anything serving as such evidence: What proof do you have?
3. the act of testing or making trial of anything; test; trial: to put a thing to the proof.
4. the establishment of the truth of anything; demonstration.
5. Law. (in judicial proceedings) evidence having probative weight.
6. the effect of evidence in convincing the mind.

I will take this a step further from the Federal Rules of Evidence that govern the admissiability of evidence in our court system

Rule 401. Definition of "Relevant Evidence"

"Relevant evidence" means evidence having any tendency to make the existence of any fact that is of consequence to the determination of the action more probable or less probable than it would be without the evidence.

translation - the court with allow just about anything as long as you can lay the foundation.

Rule 402. Relevant Evidence Generally Admissible; Irrelevant Evidence Inadmissible

All relevant evidence is admissible, except as otherwise provided by the Constitution of the United States, by Act of Congress, by these rules, or by other rules prescribed by the Supreme Court pursuant to statutory authority. Evidence which is not relevant is not admissible.



She can use any evidence as proof as long she can lay a foundation for it. She has done that. Subjectivity doesn't matter. On that note, Why do you think that litigation is so convoluted? This one of things lawyers argue about constantly. Its is just as valid to the convincing of the trier of fact (a jury for example) of the prove of the theory presented. I realize this isn't a court but the same rules apply in any situation where evidence facts and testimony and judgement matter. Whether it be litigation, arbitration, or mitigation this is how it will generally happen. The only person that can't accept that seems to be you. If you can't accept that I think we are done. i don't have time to explain this to your further.

Edit: oh and you saying things over and over again with answering any of her points makes you very silly. Just thought I would let you know.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Sinta

All that being said, BleachOd has done just that. If she were offering this to a jury or her peers who hadn't seen bleach before. I would say she won her case. Those of you, and you know who you are, who keep asking for "evidence" obviously don't understand the nature of evidence and its value in debate. There are two types (this is coming from a law student; I know what I'm talking about) real evidence or physical evidence, and circumstantial evidence.

No offense to BleachOD, but many her arguments are half-truths. She goes through and picks parts of the story which she interpets to support IchigoXRukia and then utterly ignores the parts of the story that show views contrary to what she thinks. In other words, her views are somewhat one-sided, very well presented, but one-sided nonetheless as she didn't approach this argument with an impartial view.

Really, there hasn't been one been point she's brought up that couldn't be countered or explained another way. Not saying that she's necessarily wrong, but her view can't proven because Kubo hasn't provided any concrete evidence of a romance between Rukia and Ichigo yet.

Minus a confession or a physical display there is very little real evidence in bleach, but that doesn't mean there isn't any evidence to support their position. If the foundation is laid correctly, which BleachOD did as far as i can see, circumstantial evidence is just as good as real evidence. People go to jail on circumstantial evidence peatsake, you have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, but it happens. Why couldn't she prove ichigo and rukia's love through the same manner?

This is a debate interpreting an author's writing (on an unfinished story nonetheless), not a case to be solved. There can be no "ruling" since these are only opinions. Only time well definitely tell.

With inoue, as far as her and Ichigo I think Kubo, at this point, will have a hard time convincing people that inoue really has a chance. He's wasted the opportunities he's had. Rukia on the other everything has been very steady. Their bond is undeniable and the only reason we don't know where their feelings lie is because kubo hasn't wanted to tell us yet. I think he's doing his on purpose as the reason many people read bleach is because of Ichigo and Rukia's interactions.

I really don't see how anyone can make this argument. Not only has Kubo increased Orihime's feelings from a slight crush on Ichigo at the beginning of the series to a full blow confession of love, he's increased her role ten-fold by making an arc that revolves nearly entirely around her! Really, it would've been easy enough to let Orihime's crush fade out of existence and create a new arc with Rukia cast again as the heroine and Inoue as just a minor supporting character, but instead Kubo chose take Orihime's feelings further and then vastly increase her importance. Meanwhile, Rukia is still a very important character, but there hasn't really been any new ground made on her relationship with Ichigo.

But I think the biggest evidence against the view that RukiaXIchig has already "won the case" is this scene.

Spoiler:

That's some sentimental, mushy stuff right there...
I gotta ask: If Kubo was trying to make so clear that Rukia and Ichigo are meant to be, why is he having Matsumoto explain that Orihime is just as important to Ichigo as Rukia?* Doesn't that seem like he's saying Ichigo's feelings haven't been determined?

*besides an opportunity to show her ample bosom that is

Yeah, I realize it is the shounen standard that the initial heroine usually ends up romantically involved with the lead character and that the girl with the crush usually just ends up being a third wheel. I would agree if Kubo was adhering to the usual progression where the heroine/love interest's role increases while the third wheel's role decrease, but instead he has done the opposite with Orihime, at least for this arc. Really, the fact that he's done something so outside the norm is only reason I have any interest in arguing this at all.

I'm pretty much neutral in my preference, but I'm almost finding myself pro-Orihime as I get deeper into discussion. Still, the biggest roadblock for either side remains that Ichigo himself appears completely void of any romantic thoughts for either Rukia or Orihime.

Right now, I would say that X_Danny_X opinion that there will never be any definite pairing is the most likely turnout we'll see.

[X_Danny_X]

Originally Posted by Sinta

.





I'm also gonna have to disagree with this statment.

Spoiler for manga chapter 269:

Renji is constantly being equated with Byakuya, her "dying" scenes show this, Ichigo on the other hand has a frame by himself. If Renji and Ichigo are equal why aren't they set up equally? Seems like that argument has holes in it to.

Here is a link to what I was talking about.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/269/05/

Chad and Ishida = Friends
Byukuka and Renji = Brothers
ichigo = romantic interest

what? just because Ichigo got some little frame image pic by himself and that helps in saying that he is a romantic interest and are not equated equally with Renji?



did you see the next page?? She thinks of Orihime as well, she has her own image pic by herself! according and using your logic, Rukia has a romantic interest in Orihime as well since she has a frame pic all by herself!

[X_Danny_X]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

But I think the biggest evidence against the view that RukiaXIchig has already "won the case" is this scene.

Spoiler:

That's some sentimental, mushy stuff right there...
I gotta ask: If Kubo was trying to make so clear that Rukia and Ichigo are meant to be, why is he having Matsumoto explain that Orihime is just as important to Ichigo as Rukia?* Doesn't that seem like he's saying Ichigo's feelings haven't been determined?

*besides an opportunity to show her ample bosom that is

BOING YOYOYOYOING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


i forgot all about that scenario, beautifully done fanservice

[Amirali]

@X_DANNY_X : I plan to address your points too eventually. In the meantime, kudos for the male stripper graphic. It's certainly.........eye-catching.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

No offense to BleachOD, but many her arguments are half-truths. She goes through and picks parts of the story which she interpets to support IchigoXRukia and then utterly ignores the parts of the story that show views contrary to what she thinks. In other words, her views are somewhat one-sided, very well presented, but one-sided nonetheless as she didn't approach this argument with an impartial view.

Well, she is a self-admitted IchigoxRuia fangirl. Is she expected to make the case of those arguing against her? The only thing she needs to do for a good debate, is that she should select examples that are relevant to her argument and convincing.........and she does that.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Really, there hasn't been one been point she's brought up that couldn't be countered or explained another way. Not saying that she's necessarily wrong, but her view can't proven because Kubo hasn't provided any concrete evidence of a romance between Rukia and Ichigo yet.

I think the point Sinta makes here is very valid. The question is not ' has "RukiaxIchigo" been proven beyond a reasonable doubt?' If we're going to make a legal analogy, it would be preponderance of evidence (civil law)........and on that basis, RukiaxIchigo does seem more likely than RukiaxOrihime. One can provide alternative explanations to each and every instance where Kubo shows IchiRuki closeness. The problem is the sheer number of such instances........in of itself, no one event is proof but as a totality it's quite convincing.

If people want to show otherwise, then instead of only arguing against RukiaxIchigo, we need to see arguments favouring OrihimexIchigo. There is the confession scene, I grant. But that only shows Orihime's feelings towards Ichigo (which by the way, I am a great believer and admirer of). Where are the explanations and demonstrations of Ichigo's feelings for Orihime with several examples throughout the manga? OD still wins on that evidence count, I'm afraid.

I realize though since you are of the opinion that there will be no pairing to end Bleach, you won't argue the IchigoxOrihime link too much. That gives OD an inherent advantage..........it's much harder to argue for a "negative" (there won't be a pairing) than it is to make the case that there will be a RukiaXIchigo. It's like trying to prove aliens don't exist anywhere in the universe..........it might very well be true, but how do you show it?

Regarding the Matsumoto words.........that is a supporting piece of evidence. But I would still like to see evidence from Ichigo's pov.......not us trying to decipher what Kubo has in mind when he presents stuff. Because really, what does Matsumoto know about Ichigo's feelings? She was just trying to comfort Orihime because she's a caring person.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

This is a debate interpreting an author's writing (on an unfinished story nonetheless), not a case to be solved. There can be no "ruling" since these are only opinions. Only time well definitely tell.

It is always subjective to try and read author's mind as to why he does certain stuff.......but even if there's no ruling, we can have fun arguing it .

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Yeah, I realize it is the shounen standard that the initial heroine usually ends up romantically involved with the lead character and that the girl with the crush usually just ends up being a third wheel. I would agree if Kubo was adhering to the usual progression where the heroine/love interest's role increases while the third wheel's role decrease, but instead he has done the opposite with Orihime, at least for this arc. Really, the fact that he's done something so outside the norm is only reason I have any interest in arguing this at all.

Yeah, Orihime is going to play a major part in the story up ahead because of her powers. Probably more so than Rukia, unless Kubo comes up with a plot twist. But really, I think it's difficult to try and pick pairings according to the "typical" shounen structure of male lead with female lead. For one thing, that assumes Kubo doesn't have the creativity to throw in twists or do things differently. Just because Rukia was the lead initially doesn't mean she has the divine right to be with Ichigo. Although.......I still think she will be because of the scenes they've shown of her closeness and understanding with Ichigo.