[Manga] Chapter 399 Discussion

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by That Other Ninja

Oh I see, so because his story could be as honest as a united states president's, my take on the "confirmed" spoiler you detailed must mean i'm assuming things too quickly when you saw fit to retort my apathetic comments about a potential plot revelation, even though as you say it could very well be anything for all you care. Gotcha.

Let's be clear, if your apathetic comment was merely an usual "the Uchiha sucks" comment not really related to what we know of the current chapter then my mistake, I wouldn't have bothered answering to your post had I realized sooner.
If your comment was however an analysis of the information given in the current chapter then I wasn't saying you were jumping the gun, I was saying you were wrong, plain and simple.

Well that's my post for this week. For fear I may bait the shark on my ass again i'll see you all next time.

See you next week.

[That Other Ninja]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Let's be clear, if your apathetic comment was merely an usual "the Uchiha sucks" comment not really related to what we know of the current chapter then my mistake, I wouldn't have bothered answering to your post had I realized sooner.
If your comment was however an analysis of the information given in the current chapter then I wasn't saying you were jumping the gun, I was saying you were wrong, plain and simple.

If what Madara says is true, then its a bit of both isn't it. They "suck" because they are corrupt. At least to me BUT IT COULD MEAN ANYTHING FOR ALL I CARE. *winks*

And I wouldn't use the word "sucks", I think "lame" might be more befitting considering they're so skilled but twisted.

Bye for now!

[Hunter]

A bit of both what? If what Madara said is true the Uchiha didn't decide to rebel because they were twisted power-monger but because they felt threatened by the way Konoha unjustly treated them as ennemy, the same way that Konoha felt threatened by the Uchiha because they were believed to be responsible for the attack of the Kyubi.

At least to me BUT IT COULD MEAN ANYTHING FOR ALL I CARE. *winks*

Except you obviously do care to see the Uchiha being lame, just as I care not seeing informations twisted.
It could be that when we finally learn the truth we will discover the Uchiha were ready to do something really awful and were corrupted to an inexcusable point, in fact I would enjoy seeing Sasuke's face if the clan he is so proud of happened to be just like Itachi and Orochimaru. But regardless that's not what was being said at all here and that was all my point was about.

[abazou]

Originally Posted by That Other Ninja

I was referring to the generation attempting the coup. So you're saying its confirmed that they didn't cause the last Kyuubi invasion? That they didn't want to take the heat anymore for something they weren't responsible for? I thought you said it was more of Madara giving his own particular views of the truth behind the events.

And I said "noble", not "nobles".

Dude you need therapy regarding your Uchiha hate

[mayhem]

Originally Posted by That Other Ninja

If what Madara says is true, then its a bit of both isn't it. They "suck" because they are corrupt. At least to me BUT IT COULD MEAN ANYTHING FOR ALL I CARE. *winks*

And I wouldn't use the word "sucks", I think "lame" might be more befitting considering they're so skilled but twisted.

Bye for now!

you say patato I say potato. Anything can be view as wrong immoral ( or corrupt in this case) when being viewed from an opposing side.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Animepandafreak

does someone have the spoiler thing up yet, like the lines or manga page. i want to read it myself.

Do you mean the raw text/images from the chapter? If so, those are hardly ever put up here, or at least nothing more than an image or two. You will have to go elsewhere in order to find a full raw-text/translations. If you want a summary, there are quite a few on the first page, I suggest you read Hunter's (post #11) since it is the most conscise, or 9TailsOfDestruction's post (#12) since he actually quotes part of a translation.

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by abazou

Dude you need therapy regarding your Uchiha hate

Really.. he seems more sane to me than one other person in this topic that feels sympathy for Madara and is happy he helped to obliterate a clan to the point of killing not just the men, but women and children of all ages.

You Uchiha fans are rather interesting in what you pick up on.

[mayhem]

Sometimes i feel by hyping up madara and the 1st all kishi is doing is trying to show how much of a bad ass minto must have been during his reign to be considered the best in konoha's history.

And if kishi is hinting through kakashi that naruto will surpass his father makes you really wonder how much of a power up might be heading his way.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

What is that you don't get? Madara is The Evil Guy, he was the root cause of all these things that happened. Now it seems he caused the extinction of both Senju and Uchiha clans. By summoning the kyuubi he probably caused the destruction of the Senju, since they were probably in the first line of defense, and the 4th hokage was somehow late (maybe him being late was also caused by Madara) so they died while trying to contain the demon. After the incident the village leaders like Danzou probably suspected the Uchiha, but since there was no evidence the 3rd hokage didn't want to do anything, however the tension between anbu and Uchiha did grow. Maybe some of the village elders did also want to restrain even more the Uchiha's influence by taking the police duty from them. So seeing how they were treated the Uchiha probably did think that they have no other choice than taking control of the village, since after the Senju were annihilated by that time they were the only remaining founder clan, so they were probably thinking that they "have the right" to control the village since they founded it in the first place.

If Madara succeeds somehow in converting Sasuke to his will then we have two opposing powers: Naruto with the legacy of the Senju (will of fire and the necklace as symbol) and Sasuke with the legacy of the Uchiha.

From the confirmed spoiler i'll try to answer the things you pointed out...

Madara is The Evil Guy, he was the root cause of all these things that happened. Now it seems he caused the extinction of both Senju and Uchiha clans.

Madara claimed that: His brother offered the eyes (so he didnt take it by force).
He also claimed that the attack of the Kyuubi was a natural disaster and by saying that he claims that he didnt have anything to do with it.
That only seems to me that Madara thinks or tries to tell us: "I'm innocent!"

Since the Senjuu Clan died or went extinct during the Kyuubi attack...which is already weird...the Sandaime took the role of (active) Hokage again. The reason why i think it's weird is: Were the Senjuu Clan able to control the power of the ninetails? And supress it's chakra? And judging from this page...

Spoiler:

So the Senjuu Clan assembled including the Hokage(s) to fight and seal the Kyuubi.

Spoiler for perhaps it means something...:

In this picture there are obviously 9 other shinobi...which could probably be the other senjuu clan members. With from page one (picture above) obviously the 4th Hokage with Gamabunta standing in the center to take care of the rest.

What is still a mystery is how did the anbu accept Itachi to be one of them and why was Itachi loyal to anbu. And more importantly why was Itachi in the akatsuki (he met Orochi there) ?

Didnt Madara mentioned that the massacre was a mission that Itachi carried out? Then probably to join Akatsuki was his cover. And all this was a top secret mission Super SZZZ class

Anyway it is still unrevealed what the frog ment (that was headed for Tsunade)...things about Pein...and more relevant at the moment...what did Itachi say to Naruto?

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Vindi89

Really.. he seems more sane to me than one other person in this topic that feels sympathy for Madara and is happy he helped to obliterate a clan to the point of killing not just the men, but women and children of all ages.

I must say I have to agree with that, I mean LotU weren't you hellbent on how bad Konoha was to slaughter the innocent Uchiha? And yet you think it's ok now if Madara took revenge on the descendant of those who choose Hashirama over him? That seems weird to me.

Speaking of which, what can possibly be Madara's goal?
After all these years the Uchiha clan was starting to doubt Konoha because of the way they were treated and starting to believe Madara had been right all along, it was the perfect time to get his clan back into his hands as a savior but instead he helped Konoha slaughtering them. What could he possibly gain from this?

Since the Senjuu Clan died or went extinct during the Kyuubi attack...which is already weird...the Sandaime took the role of (active) Hokage again. The reason why i think it's weird is: Were the Senjuu Clan able to control the power of the ninetails? And supress it's chakra? And judging from this page...

We don't know what became of the Senju yet and the power to control Bijuu was Hashimara's alone.
Your second pic comes from the pilot, not the actual story.

[9TailsOfDestruction]

Originally Posted by mayhem

And if kishi is hinting through kakashi that naruto will surpass his father makes you really wonder how much of a power up might be heading his way.

good point, i think the key/combination that Jiraiya had which is going to be given to Naruto is the "key" in a literal sense for that power up you're talking about mayhem.

[Mists]

So Kishi is trying to explain the truth behind Konoha now? The truth is Uchiha were planning to take over? This sort of destroys the 'good' picture of Sasuke's father and mother, were they really that evil and Itachi the hero of the day...also trying to save Sasuke so he could become stronger or take his eyes? Which is it...?

The spoilers made me say *Yawn* more times than someone can say Uchiha once and then I was done reading the spoilers.

[Suna no tate]

I think madara is lying. He doesn't explain how the kyubi which has been sealed inside naruto for the last 16 years knows how evil his eyes are and how his eyes are capable of manipulating it.

According to him, the kyubi incident was natural meaning that he had nothing to do with it. However it ended with the kyubi being sealed inside naruto. So according to madara's story, there was no real opportunity for the kyubi to feel his eyes seeing as he claims he didn't force it to attack konoha and after the attack the kyubi has been unavailable to everyone. Yet the kyubi knows his eyes all too well... seems like he's twisting the story a bit.

[Hunter]

He only claims he didn't summon the Kyubi against Konoha 16 years ago, not that he never did it.
Look at the spoiler pic I put in the opening post, it's a double page representing Madara and the Kyubi fighting Shodai.


From the look of it it's obviously the most likely part of his story to be a lie, the distrust of the Uchiha by Konoha being possibly Madara's goal from the beginning. But hey who knows? Maybe the future twist of the story is actually that Madara isn't lying here and there another puppet master scheming behind the curtain.

[Last of the Uchihas]

Originally Posted by Hunter

I must say I have to agree with that, I mean LotU weren't you hellbent on how bad Konoha was to slaughter the innocent Uchiha? And yet you think it's ok now if Madara took revenge on the descendant of those who choose Hashirama over him? That seems weird to me.

that was the fanboy in me ranting:P

Originally Posted by Hunter

Don't forget that this is all Madara's point of view, the same point of view that makes him see the Uchiha as subordinates because they were willing to be part of the village can just as well make him see Nidaime trusting the Uchiha with the security of village as a cunning plot even if it wasn't at the time.

True, but then again, Madara wouldn't lie about a thing like that.

We do know two or three thing he is lying about.

the two that comes into mind are;

1. not Summoning Kyuubi
2. not killing his brother

Let's be realist here, Madara isn't sellling himself to Sasuke as an avenger whose little brother sacrificed his eyes/life for his sake without an agenda in mind.

i agree, he clearly has some other plan, but you must realize how hard it was for him to build a reputation and gain power, just so that your clanmen would betray you and throw all that way for just a little peace, when in fact, the Uchiha clan was described as a warrior clan.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Last of the Uchihas

True, but then again, Madara wouldn't lie about a thing like that
.

Why not? If he already views his clan with disdain, why couldn't he develop natural conspiracy theories surrounding why the Uchiha clan decided to follow Shodai...wait, sorry, Hashirama (it is going to take me awhile to stop saying Shodai ) and Nidai. He could see the Uchiha clan getting the job of police force as being Senjuu dogs, but that doesn't actually mean that they were in an actual subservient position, this could just be Madara's arrogance speaking in regards to how he thinks the Uchiha clan should be viewed.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Last of the Uchihas

True, but then again, Madara wouldn't lie about a thing like that.

We do know two or three thing he is lying about.

the two that comes into mind are;

1. not Summoning Kyuubi
2. not killing his brother

I don't think Madara lies extensively because you don't make several chapters of flashback to say everything was a lie later but a few details here and there in the other hand...
It's also quite possible like I said that Madara is convinced he is right whereas Shodai and Nidaime were really peace lovers.
Remember that Madara thinks power was everything, that's probably why he admirated Hashirama so much. For such a mindset it was impossible to believe someone, especially someone so powerful, would dream an area where power wouldn't be everything anymore so it had to be a trap.

In his mind it also could have been unacceptable to see the sacrifice of his clan and particulary the sacrifice of his brother (which might or might not have been volontary but as far as Madara is concerned it could be beside the point) go to "waste".

[Last of the Uchihas]

Originally Posted by Hunter

I don't think Madara lies extensively because you don't make several chapters of flashback to say everything was a lie later but a few details here and there in the other hand...
It's also quite possible like I said that Madara is convinced he is right whereas Shodai and Nidaime were really peace lovers.

i don't know about peace loving, as Harashima was feared just like Madara throughout the shinobi world and i guess it had nothing to do about peace loving.

Remember that Madara thinks power was everything, that's probably why he admirated Hashirama so much. For such a mindset it was impossible to believe someone, especially someone so powerful, would dream an area where power wouldn't be everything anymore so it had to be a trap.

then again, the senju didn't lose power during the transaction, the Uchiha did, as an Uchiha wasn't chosen Hokage, but their rival.

In his mind it also could have been unacceptable to see the sacrifice of his clan and particulary the sacrifice of his brother (which might or might not have been volontary but as far as Madara is concerned it could be beside the point) go to "waste".

this is why i support Madara. They had equal right and by him accepting the truth, he lost the power, while the Senju gained powers.

Originally Posted by james3wk

Why not? If he already views his clan with disdain, why couldn't he develop natural conspiracy theories surrounding why the Uchiha clan decided to follow Shodai...wait, sorry, Hashirama (it is going to take me awhile to stop saying Shodai ) and Nidai.

its just Shodai, but his brother is Nidaime.

He could see the Uchiha clan getting the job of police force as being Senjuu dogs, but that doesn't actually mean that they were in an actual subservient position, this could just be Madara's arrogance speaking in regards to how he thinks the Uchiha clan should be viewed.

but it was confirmed by a few other Uchihas, which is why they planned to revolt.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Last of the Uchihas

i don't know about peace loving, as Harashima was feared just like Madara throughout the shinobi world and i guess it had nothing to do about peace loving.

Sarutobi being known as the God of Shinobi didn't come from his nice personality either, dreaming about better tomorows doesn't mean they weren't ruthless warriors when it was needed.

then again, the senju didn't lose power during the transaction, the Uchiha did, as an Uchiha wasn't chosen Hokage, but their rival.
this is why i support Madara. They had equal right and by him accepting the truth, he lost the power, while the Senju gained powers.

That's the point I was making though, as far as Madara is concerned making peace with the Senju and working with them was a disgrace to begin with but it wasn't necessarily true. Apparently most if not all Uchiha disagreed with him, they were proud to have co-founded Konoha and to be the protector of the peace of the village, at least until they were ostracized because of the attack of the Kyubi.
And if Madara is responsible for this attack he didn't just correctly predict the events, he crafted them.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Last of the Uchihas

but it was confirmed by a few other Uchihas, which is why they planned to revolt.

Wasn't that after the Kyuubi that they planned the revolt? Supposedly, until we get an actual flashback of an overheard conversation, and not just Madara saying something, it is still questionable that the Uchiha were actually planning a revolt.