Lacus Clyne... the Plot Hole Character

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

That's not how an alliance works. Even a secret alliance has to be known to a good number of people: others high up in the government (in case of succession), in the military general staff and for the planning staff. These are reasons of pure practicallity: if a government doesn't plan on how to use its resources and alliances best, it won't. At a minimum, Yuna, who pretty much ran the real foreign policy for Cagelli by all appearances, should have known about it. But he didn't.

I don't think she trusted Yuna. She needed the support of his family, but they didn't see eye to eye on all that much. Keeping secrets from him makes a lot of sense.

Note, it doesn't mean nobody in the government knew. Just that Yuna wasn't one of those who did.

And I think some in the military - like the guy who let them go, or her Seed bodygard - did know about it.

That's why you prepare before a war starts. So that when the unexpected happens, you are in a position to respond in the best way. Orb went through all the trouble of rebuilding its entire flee plus enough to have an expeditionary force, and moved entirely to the most powerful grunt suit in CE. They were preparing themselves for when ZAFT and the EA start to fight between eachother again.

Yes, but they didn't expect to take sides and head out so easily. Or early. Or without Cagali.

She dropped off the planet to the extent that Gil, with one of the best intelligence services on the planet, freely admitted to having no clue where she was. That's pretty darn deep.

His "best intelligence services on the planet" failed to infiltrate Lacus' org, while being themselves filled with her people.

Which is why I've been going through the trouble of giving other catch-ways Lacus could be caught. Because even if it isn't technically illegal to hoard your own private mobile suit that's banned as a WMD, it is dead wrong and goes against the spirit of the peace.

And not doing so goes against the spirit of not getting killed, as later events would show.

Lacus had no other claim to it rebuilt than her own power and influence. If she wanted peace, she could have gone out and used her status to keep the peace, not go out after a war has started and arbitrarily attack all sides.

Attacking all sides was Cagali's idea, not hers.

As for taking a more public role between the wars to, well, avert the second one... Maybe she could have done something. Could she have done more? Canaver used up all her political capital in the Junius 7 treaty. Would Lacus have fared any better? She was elevated to near godly status by her actions in the First War, but her mystery-shrouded absence and Dullindal's PR also helped. Maybe they did most of the work. What would have happened in she stayed?

And then, there is the other side: the EA, with whom she had no influence to speak of. How would they have dealt with a teenage girl leader?

[monster]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Complaining about refugees is a bit silly, IMO, considering how Orb was formed, but I fail to see how ZAFT is breaking the law because of it.

I'm not sure, hence why I qualified the statement with the word "if." Unless the rule is about ordering somone to do something (which is not the case here), the only one who can be at fault (if there's any) is the one who took an action that caused concern.

No. No no no no. This is is by far one of the most foolish misstatements I've heard yet, because it completely misses one key detail: if an unused NJC mobile suit is "no cause for concern," why is there an entire treaty provision against designing, constructing, and even moving them around?

Because the concern is that they will be used.

"No reason to worry as long as it isn't used" is a historically failed basis. Nuclear, biological, chemical weapons, large armies on the borders, a contract with a patient assassin, these are all things that, according to you, there's no need to worry for as long as it isn't used.

But what other reason is there to go through all the trouble of recovering, smuggling, and rebuilding a mobilue suit who can just as easily be converted into a nuclear bomb, if you don't intend to possibly use it one day?

Except you're arguing after the fact. She didn't use it before the second war and she had no real intention of using it in the first place. It doesn't matter what might've happened. What mattered is that it didn't because she didn't do what the treaty prohibited. In this case, the intentions, the means, and the ends all agreed.

Not going to fly. As a key mediator in the negotiations of the treaty, Lacus would know the intentions and objectives of both sides pretty darn quick. Certainly quick enough to know before the suit was moved to Orb and completely rebuilt.

That objective is to not use nuclear powered ms in the military, as stated in the treaty. And since Freedom was not even used by any military until after the second war, she did not violate the intentions of that treaty as a PLANT citizen.

And an illegal possession at that. Have you ever considered that at the same moment Lacus handed over top secret military equipment to a soldier of a genocidal military alliance, she and Kira can both be considered to have been participants in a black market arms deal, with an informal price being Kira fighting for Lacus later on? (I think that the exact words were "as you see fit," but judging from results...)

From Meer's existence, we can safely assume either she was pardoned for her wartime crime or the post-war PLANT government did not hold her accountable for it.

"Private possession" doesn't mean "legal." The Freedom remains criminally stolen military equipment throughout it's life. Most nations have gun-control laws limiting the types of weapons you have (with special limitations on military technology), military import/export prohibitions (unless you have a license), and extradition treaties to return criminals to the jurisdiction in which they committed their crime. As a small, neutral, high-technology country who (allegedly) deals equally with all sides, as a country depicted near utopianly, portrayed as low-crime and highly structured, would almost certainly have all of these. By being in "private" possession of a NJC mobile suit, Lacus Clyne is not only remains a prosecutable criminal in PLANT, but also one in Orb as well.

Says who? It's apparent to me that neither government is blaming her for her actions in the past war.

Of course, Durandle is mentioned to have offered amnesty for the crimes of those who opposed Zala, which makes Lacus clear on the traitor angle from the ZAFT side (though I wouldn't doubt that most would be appaled that the Freedom is rebuilt as one person's personal tool). But there's no such indication of any amnesty from the Orb side, which leads to apparent nepotism by Cagelli.

The fact that Orb has ruling families tells us that nepotism is not illegal in Orb.

Ah well. Destiny was rather screwed up from the start.

Real life is also screwed up.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

@ monstert

What? NJC was accepted by the Treaty? It's been banned outright! What kind of logic is that? @.@;; Accepting NJCs =/= banning them. What's the point of banning them if they accept NJCs as you say?

Do you realize there's non-military use for nuclear power? Did you know that most of the nations on Earth had an energy crisis due to neutron jammers being buried on Earth? Why did they have to specifically say military use of NJC is prohibited if NJC itself is prohibited?

Cagalli went to Dullindal because she feels responsible enough to remind him of what is going on, and it is at the expense of her country's stand in the neutrality case, and its implications to the EA. The fact remains that Cagalli STILL allowed that to happen up to that certain point is still breaking the Treaty, you know. >.>;;

Not according to Dullindal's own explanation of the situation.

If Cagalli already told Dully beforehand that she had to stop letting them use the personnel and facilities, then Dully still continues to use it, without Orb's permission, she didn't have to go to Dully to ask him specifically THAT, she could've just cut it off immediately. Cagalli was saying that PLANTs wasn't saying anything that's why she went directly to Dully, so maybe she was already asking Dully to stop using the facilities and the personnel and PLANTs and still hasn't replied. But even so, she still let it happen, she didn't stop it at any rate, so she's guilty of breaking the Treaty because she wasn't decisive enough to cut off the PLANTs' use of their facilities and personnel straightaway. Dully also mentions in the clips I provided that PLANTs were the ones responsible for taking in some of the Orb war refugees, some of them anyway, technically (if some of them would denounce their citizenship, look at Shinn, he can't be part of ZAFT if he still counts himself part of Orb right @.@;; or if he is exercising some form of dual citizenship) are now citizens of PLANTs, or there are some Orb Coordinators who still help with PLANT reconstruction using Orb technology and facilities (this is probably what Cagalli was worried about). Those personnel and facilities couldn't actually do anything unless they were ordered by Orb specifically themselves to STOP what they were doing, but at the time Cagalli went to Dully, Orb still allowed for such things to happen.

That's nonsense, you don't stop giving aid by asking the other person to stop receiving it. And Shinn is a perfect example of how the current Orb government has nothing to do with PLANT's dealings.

[Neku]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Was referring to Lacus, citizen (and minor official) of PLANT.

How is Lacus a minor official of PLANT?
But Lacus still didn't deploy Freedom, and Orb isn't bound by the treaty so what's wrong actually, with having Freedom mobile around Orb?

As leader of the Clyne Faction with which the AA and Kira aligned, Lacus is responsible for the deployment of her troops, which included Kira. And considering how she (as opposed to, say, Cagelli, supreme leader of Orb) had the release keys to the Freedom, it's safe to say that Lacus was in part responsible for the recovery and rebuilding of the Freedom.

When was Kira acting under Clyne Faction? I only recalled him giving orders, I never remembered him taking orders in Destiny.

Just because you have the keys to something means you were the one who build/made that something? What if I pass my car keys to my friend for safekeeping? Is s/he responsible for building or buying my car?

Does a borrowed axe with a replacement handle somehow become someone else's axe? Does a stolen car with a new set of tires suddenly belong to someone else? Whether Orb repaired it or not doesn't change how it is stolen property of ZAFT.

A part of it, yes. If you didn't pay.
Freedom was half-wrecked after the first war. Freedom was repaired by Orb. ZAFT never asked for it back. I think it's safe to think that from Destiny onwards, Freedom belongs to Kira.

And you know this... how? They could have been told (lied) that it had been destroyed.

and you know that, how? They could have told Kira that he can keep Freedom.

Kira had no idea what he was even going to see before Lacus introduced him to it. It was Lacus who made the arrangements to get into the building, it was Lacus who made sure that both the Freedom and herself could escape. Lacus stole it, gave it to Kira. But the Freedom does not legally belong to Kira any more than second-hand stolen property stops belonging to the robbed owner.

He had everything sorted out before he piloted Freedom away. I agree; Lacus made the arrangements. But Freedom could only have been stolen if Kira would pilot it, and he did. He pilot it. He stole it.

Freedom is stolen property in SEED, I don't deny that. But from Destiny onwards, that case has been put off. No one questioned who Freedom belongs to anymore because it is clear that it belongs to and signifies Kira.

Stolen property doesn't belong to you, unless you live in some bizarro anarchist country I've never heard of.

Of course, it's not yours legally.
But if no one is questioning your rights over it(especially ZAFT) even if they know you stole it, then you can say it's yours. It's like a silent "Okay, you can have it".

From the ZAFT side. Should an Orb politician not taken to nepotism come along and decide to make trouble for Lacus, it would be her who is on the wrong side of the law. Gil can no more pardon a criminal of Orb than the PotUS can pardon a French petty theif.

Why would Orb meddle with ZAFT's affairs?
If ZAFT pardoned Lacus, then it is safe to say that Orb cannot have a say about it because I have yet to hear from Orb that one isn't allowed private possession of a mobile suit.

Eidolon Sniper:
4Tran, Anh_Minh and I, even monstert, if I'm not wrong, have repeatedly stated why Lacus isn't subject to the treaty. I don't need to provide my own reason. This isn't a matter of opinion. Lacus didn't sign the Junius Treaty, therefore she is not subject to it. Unless you can apply how she violated the treaty, this case is off.

However concerned Cagalli is about the treaty, Orb did not violate the treaty. ZAFT was using Orb's resources. Cagalli went to demand for ZAFT to return and cease usage of their resources.

Orb is exactly as neutral as they could be.

Kira and Murrue are not as stupid as to go back to a country that has betrayed them. Their ties with EA were cut off by EA themselves.

I do not understand your thinking.
Why is it that they must be hiding in Orb? Can't they stay in Orb? WTF? If I ever immigrate to another country, does that mean I'm HIDING? Not to mention Kira was originally a citizen of Orb. Lacus loves Kira. I think it's clear she'll follow him wherever he is. Do you really think Murrue wants to go back to a nation that has tried to sacrifice them as bait? Andrew, in any case, is officially dead and he chose to follow Lacus.

Do you honestly think that even if Lacus was staying in PLANT, she would go by Durandal's beliefs and help him just like Meer did? She would have been assassinated anyway, wherever she was. Heck, even Durandal understood that Lacus would not help him. Thus, Meer's existence and Lacus's assassination. Otherwise, he would've went all the way to Orb to request for her aid.

[PzIVf3]

The way of Kira and Lacus doing is only making a stalemate both side to make more fuel on fire.

[Sir Dearka]

When fire already burns it sometimes takes so much water to extinguish it. Only Lacus and Kira have that many water to do it. In real life, it is not that easy. But again, it is just a robot fairy tale.

[kk2extreme]

i dont know if she is really a faulty character or not, but i know one thing, lacus clones started to pop up after her appearance, meer and euphie anyone

[Dean_the_Young]

But of course. Meer was an excuse for fanservice, and to prove how silly the CE plebes are in that they'll follow any big-busted popstar who says pretty phases.

Euphie was a not-so-subtle jab at how ridiculous a character like Lacus actually is when in a position of power.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Neku

How is Lacus a minor official of PLANT?

Remember when Lacus was first recovered by the ArchAngel? Remember her job? That counts as a government official.

A part of it, yes. If you didn't pay.
Freedom was half-wrecked after the first war. Freedom was repaired by Orb. ZAFT never asked for it back. I think it's safe to think that from Destiny onwards, Freedom belongs to Kira.

Well, let's just say I'm glad you aren't, and most likely never will be, in a position to make, judge, or enforce laws of any sort.

and you know that, how? They could have told Kira that he can keep Freedom.

Because few sane countries let teenagers hold onto top-secret military technology?

He had everything sorted out before he piloted Freedom away. I agree; Lacus made the arrangements. But Freedom could only have been stolen if Kira would pilot it, and he did. He pilot it. He stole it.

Anyone could have piloted the suit away. Lacus could have piloted it. She might not have been able to fight of any ways, but all the effort and intent in the theft of the Freedom was on her part, not Kira's.

Freedom is stolen property in SEED, I don't deny that. But from Destiny onwards, that case has been put off. No one questioned who Freedom belongs to anymore because it is clear that it belongs to and signifies Kira.

No one questions who the Freedom belongs to because no one knows what the feck the ArchAngel is up to, or even trying to do, only that they've attacked all sides. No one knows who the pilot is, so they can't ask for it back now can they?

Of course, it's not yours legally.
But if no one is questioning your rights over it(especially ZAFT) even if they know you stole it, then you can say it's yours. It's like a silent "Okay, you can have it".

Look. ZAFT can't ask for it back because they have no friggen clue who or where to ask. No one even knew the Freedom existed until the Lacus assassination attempt, and then the Freedom and ArchAngel make it pretty clear that they aren't on the side of any recognized faction. Hiding stolen property and then running around with no organizational markings doesn't make for any sort of claim of recognized ownership.

Why would Orb meddle with ZAFT's affairs?

Independent country, balancing various viewpoints, has a very political issue that could be used to their advantage? Is it really hard to see? Countries 'meddle' in eachothers affairs all the time, especially when it can be used to their gain. If a hypothetical Orb administration wanted to make clear to the EA that they were not, in fact, cozying up with ZAFT, a public process against a ZAFT heroine would be a great symbollic start.

If ZAFT pardoned Lacus, then it is safe to say that Orb cannot have a say about it because I have yet to hear from Orb that one isn't allowed private possession of a mobile suit.

And you have yet to hear where anyone in Orb is allowed private possession of a mobile suit. This is the point where logic, reason, and common sense, as well as comparisons to other first world countries, come into play.

Name a small, neutral country in which anyone is allowed to own, arm, and maintain their own heavy artillery or heavy armor weapon.

4Tran, Anh_Minh and I, even monstert, if I'm not wrong, have repeatedly stated why Lacus isn't subject to the treaty. I don't need to provide my own reason. This isn't a matter of opinion. Lacus didn't sign the Junius Treaty, therefore she is not subject to it. Unless you can apply how she violated the treaty, this case is off.

That's asnine.

Treaties, laws, and regulations apply to you regardless of whether you sign them or not. In fact, I highly doubt you've signed any significant number of laws that you comply with every day of your life. Do you pay your electricity bill? Pay your taxes? Does your car comply with safety and emmission standards set by the government, standards which are increasingly set with an international consensus? If you've left your country, have you obeyed the laws of the country you went to? Did you register for a visa, as per international agreement?

Lacus is not a country. No amount of fame, deification, or otherwise importance makes her equal in status or legality to a nation.

The only halfway reasonable argument so far has been that a treaty won't apply if the person is out of the country. Which is actually not quite true, because nations are expected to enforce their sovereignty, and by extension their treaties, to all their citizens regardless of where they are, especially when the citizen is a former government official.

Orb is exactly as neutral as they could be.

Bullcrap. Orb went two series of hypocracy and double dealings while trying to have it both ways. First they secretly ally with a racist military alliance. In the second series, Cagelli agrees to ANOTHER, open, alliance with the same racist military alliance, and then grows the cajones to wonder why another country would attack after the Orb government provides refuge to a mass murderer. And this is after she goes around telling everyone else to stop building more mobile suits, while Orb is finishing one of the most effective military buildups in CE.

[daimonth]

Lacus Clyne is awesome precisely because she is a dictator and tyrant. I mean really who else hides a treaty breaking weapon of mass destruction under an orphanage? What a slap in the face it must be for EA and Zaft when the person who contributed greatly in bringing the peace treaty about went and completely ignored it?

Later on when she returned to space, instead of seeking peaceful solutions she holed her self up in a factory and built more hax mobile suits. Really her method of bringing peace is: Stop fighting, else I 'll get Kira to blow the crap out of all of you. This of course works wonderfully with Kiras no kill policy. Just imagine that you are one of those mobile suit pilots, with arms leg and head chopped off, set adrift in space by the monster that is Strike Freedom. Then Lacus's voice sounded from the radio: "Please stop fighting I just want to resolve things peacefully." Who wouldn't go for that?

In short:
Lacus the dictator- Pure Win
Lacus the saint- What Gundam Seed were you watching?

[monster]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Lacus is not a country. No amount of fame, deification, or otherwise importance makes her equal in status or legality to a nation.

Exactly, so why are you holding her responsible for the treaty as if she were a country? If the treaty puts restrictions on PLANT's military, than those restrictions are on PLANT's military, not on Lacus. The two are not synonymous. One is a country who signed a treaty regarding its military while the other is an individual who contributed nothing to that country's military force. Hence, her actions were not in violation of said treaty.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by daimonth

Lacus Clyne is awesome precisely because she is a dictator and tyrant. I mean really who else hides a treaty breaking weapon of mass destruction under an orphanage? What a slap in the face it must be for EA and Zaft when the person who contributed greatly in bringing the peace treaty about went and completely ignored it?

Later on when she returned to space, instead of seeking peaceful solutions she holed her self up in a factory and built more hax mobile suits. Really her method of bringing peace is: Stop fighting, else I 'll get Kira to blow the crap out of all of you. This of course works wonderfully with Kiras no kill policy. Just imagine that you are one of those mobile suit pilots, with arms leg and head chopped off, set adrift in space by the monster that is Strike Freedom. Then Lacus's voice sounded from the radio: "Please stop fighting I just want to resolve things peacefully." Who wouldn't go for that?

In short:
Lacus the dictator- Pure Win
Lacus the saint- What Gundam Seed were you watching?

Looking at that from such point of view each and every leader seems to be atyrant. Without exceptions A twisted way to look at fairy tales about knights and princesses, IMO.

[Neku]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Remember when Lacus was first recovered by the ArchAngel? Remember her job? That counts as a government official.

Doesn't apply to the timeline.
You state she deployed Freedom in Destiny, therefore she violated the treaty as a government official. Lacus was labeled traitor way back in Seed. I don't see how she's still a government official of ZAFT in Destiny.

Also, I don't think singing for ZAFT actually makes you a government official.

Well, let's just say I'm glad you aren't, and most likely never will be, in a position to make, judge, or enforce laws of any sort.

That's all?
Whatever makes you happy then.

Because few sane countries let teenagers hold onto top-secret military technology?

Seems like it.
You have a problem?

Anyone could have piloted the suit away. Lacus could have piloted it. She might not have been able to fight of any ways, but all the effort and intent in the theft of the Freedom was on her part, not Kira's.

Yes, anyone could have. But why did she specifically brought Kira? Because she thinks Kira needs it. The rest lies with Kira's decision. If he decided not to have it, there will be no theft.

No one questions who the Freedom belongs to because no one knows what the feck the ArchAngel is up to, or even trying to do, only that they've attacked all sides. No one knows who the pilot is, so they can't ask for it back now can they?

If they want it back, they'll ask for it. Yes, no one questions because they didn't know at first what they were up to. But what about all the time from then till phase 34? Don't tell me they forgot.

Also, are you implying that if someone robs you, you'd ask "Who are you?" instead of chasing him down, getting your stolen property back and handing him over to the authorities?

Look. ZAFT can't ask for it back because they have no friggen clue who or where to ask. No one even knew the Freedom existed until the Lacus assassination attempt, and then the Freedom and ArchAngel make it pretty clear that they aren't on the side of any recognized faction. Hiding stolen property and then running around with no organizational markings doesn't make for any sort of claim of recognized ownership.

ZAFT knew Freedom existed. Heck, even the team sent for Lacus's assassination does. They just didn't know where it was. Sure, Minerva was surprised to see Freedom and Archangel when they interrupted. But from that point till phase 34, never was there an issue of order from Durandal to reclaim Freedom. They had all the time to demand the return of their property. Why not? Probably because they don't give a damn on who it belongs to anymore?

Independent country, balancing various viewpoints, has a very political issue that could be used to their advantage? Is it really hard to see? Countries 'meddle' in eachothers affairs all the time, especially when it can be used to their gain. If a hypothetical Orb administration wanted to make clear to the EA that they were not, in fact, cozying up with ZAFT, a public process against a ZAFT heroine would be a great symbollic start.

But Orb didn't.

And you have yet to hear where anyone in Orb is allowed private possession of a mobile suit. This is the point where logic, reason, and common sense, as well as comparisons to other first world countries, come into play.

I have also yet to hear the Orb military issuing that Kira is guilty of owning a mobile suit.

Name a small, neutral country in which anyone is allowed to own, arm, and maintain their own heavy artillery or heavy armor weapon.

I can't. Bite me.

Lacus is not a country. No amount of fame, deification, or otherwise importance makes her equal in status or legality to a nation.

She's not. No one ever said or implied she was, either.

Treaties, laws, and regulations apply to you regardless of whether you sign them or not.

Laws and regulations apply regardless.
Treaties, no. Lacus, of the party - Clyne Faction, did not sign it. Therefore, she isn't obliged to go by the treaty.

Bullcrap. Orb went two series of hypocracy and double dealings while trying to have it both ways. First they secretly ally with a racist military alliance. In the second series, Cagelli agrees to ANOTHER, open, alliance with the same racist military alliance, and then grows the cajones to wonder why another country would attack after the Orb government provides refuge to a mass murderer. And this is after she goes around telling everyone else to stop building more mobile suits, while Orb is finishing one of the most effective military buildups in CE.

Doesn't apply. I was saying that they're neutral about their acceptance of the mix of Coordinators and Naturals in their country because Sniper regarded about Orb's sheltering of Lacus.

[Eidolon Sniper]

@ Neku

Probably not a government official, but Lacus can't actually do anything aboard the Archangel if she wasn't signed onto it, like what Kira and his friends did in SEED.

Lacus didn't want Kira to fight. See her reluctance when she hands him the keys from Pink chan. And this does go against the "Lacus is prepared since SEED" factor 4Tran was arguing about. Plotholes.

Freedom was destroyed in SEED, at least I'm assuming that ZAFT knows this (top tier ZAFT). Archangel suddenly disappeared at the end of SEED. It would be ridiculous if they do ask for the Freedom back, cause it will cause a lot more writer mangling on Morosawa's part. They were surprised to see Freedom suddenly appear out of nowhere like that, and slicing up their entire fleets. The "assassins" didn't know Freedom was in the orphanage to hunt Lacus, tehy were all surprised when it showed up. And for the umpteenth time the manga doesn't paint Dully as the mastermind in the assassination attempt.

No, she is bound to it, see Cagalli's reaction in the links I provided. Sigh. If Lacus has the moral obligation of fighting Dully the right way, then she'd do that, except Morosawa has her way with Lacus again.

@ monstert

Oh ho, and so her battalion does not qualify as an something of a military force? She has 2 WMDs and minor WMDs at her disposal and are able to fend off huge armadas of MS and other ships thrown in.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Oh ho, and so her battalion does not qualify as an something of a military force?

I'm arguing that her "military force" is not PLANT's military force.

[Eidolon Sniper]

Everything about the Treaty regarding a military is involved, it does not only limit itself to either side. Oh snap, if it were, then it MUST mean that guerilla groups that has Lacus kind of battalion as equally innocent of not breaking the Treaty as well?

[monster]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Everything about the Treaty regarding a military is involved, it does not only limit itself to either side.

What are you trying to say here? The two sides are everything the treaty is about. That's why it's their treaty.

Oh snap, if it were, then it MUST mean that guerilla groups that has Lacus kind of battalion as equally innocent of not breaking the Treaty as well?

If they are not working under EA or PLANTs, then sure.

[Neku]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Probably not a government official, but Lacus can't actually do anything aboard the Archangel if she wasn't signed onto it, like what Kira and his friends did in SEED.

Signed onto what? Enlighten me.

Lacus didn't want Kira to fight. See her reluctance when she hands him the keys from Pink chan. And this does go against the "Lacus is prepared since SEED" factor 4Tran was arguing about. Plotholes.

For your first two statements, yes. For the latter, I couldn't care less.

Freedom was destroyed in SEED, at least I'm assuming that ZAFT knows this (top tier ZAFT). Archangel suddenly disappeared at the end of SEED. It would be ridiculous if they do ask for the Freedom back, cause it will cause a lot more writer mangling on Morosawa's part. They were surprised to see Freedom suddenly appear out of nowhere like that, and slicing up their entire fleets. The "assassins" didn't know Freedom was in the orphanage to hunt Lacus, tehy were all surprised when it showed up. And for the umpteenth time the manga doesn't paint Dully as the mastermind in the assassination attempt.

So? In the end, they still never demanded for the return of Freedom. What writer mangling? I believe if ZAFT does request for the return of Freedom, it'd be more interesting. We could actually watch Kira fight as he did in SEED because he's handicapped. The reason why Morosawa never bothered for ZAFT to get it back was because she already assumed that the impression was, the pilot, the owner of Freedom is Kira Yamato. Screw legal or illegal.

Just because the manga doesn't, doesn't mean the anime didn't.

No, she is bound to it, see Cagalli's reaction in the links I provided. Sigh. If Lacus has the moral obligation of fighting Dully the right way, then she'd do that, except Morosawa has her way with Lacus again.

Oh, are we going through this again?
How does Cagalli's reaction link to whether Lacus is obliged to the treaty? Just because she was scared Orb might have broken it? Since you trust Durandal so much, you should believe him when he says they are doing nothing of the sort - using Orb's resources for military purposes thus breaking the treaty. He clearly stated they are not. Therefore what treaty is Orb breaking that makes Lacus breaks it too?

Also, you can't say Orb is already breaking the treaty. According to the Junius Seven Treaty, Orb is banned from giving both sides any sort of military aid. ZAFT was recruiting the Coordinators in Orb who are holds the knowledge of Orb technology. Cagalli didn't want that to continue, therefore she requests for a ceasage. What part of that is breaking the treaty? If any side was breaking it, it was ZAFT, and of course, EA, for yet instigating another war. Yet Durandal assures her that that is not what's happening, didn't he? So, would you proclaim him a liar?

What would be the right way?
"I declare war to thee!"?
But last I checked, Lacus was trying to stop the war. Yes, through Freedom. You have a problem? If you're suggesting that the right way Lacus should've took is "No! Please cease war at once! We agreed for peace!", then that'd be pretty stupid, wouldn't it? Yeah, they agreed. But they already went back on their own words too. What's the use of the treaty if people has already violated it?

I don't give a damn if Lacus doesn't have the moral obligations you need her to have. Seriously, it's enough trying to find faults within a character you dislike, or you once liked, but now dislike. Just move on. Yet of course, if you plan to, I can entertain you still. Btw, I don't plan on this paragraph being a starting line of a side debate. Just take it, or leave it.

[Eidolon Sniper]

@ monstert

If it was just THEIR Treaty, then it would state so. Even if it WAS their Treaty, people like us can't just randomly break the Treaty if we like to, right? I mean, even if we're not their signatories or whatever. Respecting something like that could help a lot when it came to crying one side is doing foul deeds, and the person in particular isn't a hypocrite for doing so. Saying that one isn't a signatory to a Treaty does not mean that they can go around breaking rules that were outlined in that Treaty, especially more so if the person was to stand for everything that the EA and PLANTs would want to achieve in the long run. And even so, they also broke the Treaty in their own way (EA and PLANTs), which leads me to think that a Treaty didn't really happen, and it all was just a bad joke. >.>;;

They still broke the Treaty.

@ Neku

Kira and his friends on SEED were made to be soldiers aboard the Archangel because they were given honorary dismissals or whatever before the Archangel crashlanded in the desert. Natarle was having a fit because they weren't military people and civilians should not be onboard the ship. But they (Kira and friends) enlisted into the EA anyways. Any more questions?

So anybody could just get trained "Coordinators" and get themselves high tech ZAFT military equipment if they just know where to ask, mercenaries do that all the time. ZAFT only knew that the Freedom probably was destroyed, and the "assassin" reactions point to that. They didn't expect Freedom to appear suddenly out of nowhere. The Astray manga helped to tie in the loose ends why Kira survived the explosion in Strike's cockpit and was sent to Lacus, so it means a lot for the manga to confirm that Dully WAS indeed behind the assassination attempt.

Cagalli was already worried because they are already breaking the Treaty and she specifically went to Dully to request that it stop. Orb was banned from giving help to either side, and even if it were some sort of goodwill project, it could mean Orb was helping PLANTs to the EA. And Cagalli/Orb was guilty of breaking the Treaty because they could've just flatly stopped it outright before a situation like that (what happened in Destiny ep 1) could happen. Lacus should also follow Cagalli's example, at least Cagalli was trying her best not to do anything that could break the Treaty outright. Also, Orb was banned from giving any kind of their technology to be used on either side as well, they could only use the technology that Orb has developed BEFORE the Treaty happened. Any Orb technology that they developed AFTER the Treaty and could be used by either PLANTs or EA is a big no-no. ZAFT wasn't at fault for doing so, because Orb allowed it to happen, they could've easily refused doing so.

Which leads me to think that the Treaty was only a joke only to serve heated debates like these.

It makes her a plothole character. She can do all of those things and not be penalized for it? It's kinda hypocritical for her to be stopping a war using Freedom and the Archangel to suddenly butt into wars that they have no right being IN. What they did was cause a lot of confusion on both sides. They didn't even bother explaining themselves. So what if they think they're doing the right thing? How could you explain those things to the guys killed in the Lohengrin blast, getting a sonic boom in that base where Lacus made her escape to space, and even Heine's parents, or even in the Destroy incident where they showed up again to cause even more confusion? Even if Lacus stops this war, people would still be discontent, but she will use her resources to stamp out all signs of a rebellion, even forcefully for that matter.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

@ monstert

If it was just THEIR Treaty, then it would state so. Even if it WAS their Treaty, people like us can't just randomly break the Treaty if we like to, right? I mean, even if we're not their signatories or whatever. Respecting something like that could help a lot when it came to crying one side is doing foul deeds, and the person in particular isn't a hypocrite for doing so.

When we are not signatories we have this advantage that we DON'T have to respect it. Lacus did not fail on any of the terms in my eyes. She never broke the treaty by law as she never signed it. And by not following the "nuke-jam-canceller rule" she made the right choice, looking at that from my perception of morality. She had the right NOT to follow it and she did it. For the good of the people and their sovereignty.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

If it was just THEIR Treaty, then it would state so.

No, if it was not just their treaty, then it would state so.

Even if it WAS their Treaty, people like us can't just randomly break the Treaty if we like to, right? I mean, even if we're not their signatories or whatever.

That depends on the treaty in question. With Lacus, I see no reason to believe she broke the Junius Treaty.

Respecting something like that could help a lot when it came to crying one side is doing foul deeds, and the person in particular isn't a hypocrite for doing so.

I thought you said that did not really happen? So why worry about it?

Saying that one isn't a signatory to a Treaty does not mean that they can go around breaking rules that were outlined in that Treaty,

Rules that said neither EA nor PLANT can use NJC in their respective military? Well Lacus certainly did not break that rule.

especially more so if the person was to stand for everything that the EA and PLANTs would want to achieve in the long run.

What they should've wanted (as evidenced by the treaty) is peace among them. Lacus did nothing to break that peace, the EA and PLANT radicals broke the peace themselves.

And even so, they also broke the Treaty in their own way (EA and PLANTs), which leads me to think that a Treaty didn't really happen, and it all was just a bad joke. >.>;;

They still broke the Treaty.

Well, that's not Lacus's fault then.