AnimeSuki Forums

cbatty · 2009-03-06, 16:16

Wow - I can't say that this was unexpected. I was sad but there were no tears. I still hold on to hope. Hope for a happy ending for Tomoya.

Everything seemed to be converging towards the final scene....

Spoiler for Full Circle:

I can't be certain what the meaning of it all is. I am sure the gamers out there will know, though whether KyoAni take some creative license for themselves alter the final meaning means that we all cannot be completely sure.

I take solace in the title of next weeks episode "The Palm of a Small Hand" This suggests reaching out, of offering your hand, palm up to someone. And with the way the final scene closes, with Tomoya and Nagisa standing next to each other on the hill...

It will be a long wait until next week.

X207 · 2009-03-06, 17:41

they really should accept anpan as a curse. tomoya really cant get a break when it omes to nagisa. its so cruel and i hope that something happens to save ushio. how many eps are there left until the season is finished?

RandomFlameStrike · 2009-03-06, 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by PNGO

omg

Spoiler for episode:

I hope that's sarcasm lol, but if case you can't tell, the trip didn't really make Ushio collapse any faster.

Yeah this was a crushing episode. I hope KyoAni won't screw things up with the last ep. I have a few guess on what they might do but this isn't the place to talk about that.

But seriously, random supernatrual unexplainable fevers with no ties to real medical issues are FTL (The doctor couldn't diagonose it). If I didn't know better I'd be going WTF WTF WTF?!

Janey777 · 2009-03-06, 18:51

Spoiler for the holy field:

Yeah
Who needs hospitals anyway.

alu546 · 2009-03-06, 19:08

Seems like Kyou may play a big role in getting Tomoya over this, or atleast Id expect her to, Tomoya has always needed outside help in order to cope with his major problems, and since she still cares and promised help last episode, id expect to see her next week.

**Klashikari** · 2009-03-06, 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janey777

Yeah
Who needs hospitals anyway.

For the Xth time:
-no you cannot expect an early delivery. Actually early delivery can happen on a whim, regardless how healthy the mother is.
-tomoya explained why he didn't send ushio to the hospital.

It seems some people really give too much credits to hospitals nowadays: think about room, funds and time issues.
Hospitalization is *never* better than staying home if treatment isn't given. Such environment isn't anything positive to a patient, let alone a child.

MeoTwister5 · 2009-03-06, 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janey777

Spoiler for the holy field:

Yeah
Who needs hospitals anyway.

Okay you DO NOT hospitalize anyone just because a doctor can't diagnose a patient's current condition, even with or without a valid differential. Hospitalization falls under patients who's health either rapidly deteriorates or suddenly enters a life threatening situation. For whatever reason, Ushio's condition does not suggest anything immediately life threatening, niether does it point to any observable decline in patient condition. People HAVE died from almost seemingly simple symptoms that doesn't even suggest a need for hospitalization. Of course Ushio's case is a bit more out of this world but that's beyond the point.

As for Nagisa's pregnancy and subsequent labor occurring during a snowstorm and the dangers of moving a woman having contractions, I don't think I even need to discuss how dangerous it already is.

Ryuou · 2009-03-06, 19:10

Oh, I remembered the other thing that I was thinking about last night. That damn doctor that checked on Ushio. What was up with his attitude? "Oh no, it's the same as Nagisa. There's nothing we can do and there's no hope at all. Well, I'll just let myself out. See ya." (Not exact quote) I thought it was kind of cold. Especially coming from what seems to be a family doctor.

And another thing, why has there been no research into Nagisa's illness? What did doctors do after they found out she had an unknown illness? Just decide to forget about? I find it a little ridiculous that no amount of research (seemingly) was put into this illness, and that nothing was accomplished in the 15+ year span between Nagisa's and Ushio's 'diagnosis'.

**Klashikari** · 2009-03-06, 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryuou

Oh, I remembered the other thing that I was thinking about last night. That damn doctor that checked on Ushio. What was up with his attitude? "Oh no, it's the same as Nagisa. There's nothing we can do and there's no hope at all. Well, I'll just let myself out. See ya." (Not exact quote) I thought it was kind of cold. Especially coming from what seems to be a family doctor.

And another thing, why has there been no research into Nagisa's illness? What did doctors do after they found out she had an unknown illness? Just decide to forget about? I find it a little ridiculous that no amount of research (seemingly) was put into this illness, and that nothing was accomplished in the 15+ year span between Nagisa's and Ushio's 'diagnosis'.

You can't make research on an unidentified illness like this, especially if only 1-2 individuals are afflicted by this (research fees are astronomic).
It is simply unrealistic, and it takes also an atrocious amount of time to even "identify" a pathogen. So especting a cure for a completely mythical illness is utterly impossible (THAT would be a real deus ex machina in the given situation of this series).

The series implied clearly that Nagisa's existence was solely relying on the town "health". Nagisa was supposed to be dead years before the actual plot, so her existence was a mere "borrowed time", which Ushio logically got as result.
The "unidentified" illness is not a plothole here: it is unidentified as it is something out of the science league, that's all.

SageGaiGar · 2009-03-06, 19:21

Ask yourself, would you rather spend all your time in a institutional setting (hospital) or rest at home? They had no clue what was wrong with her, so no real way to treat it. Staying at home was the best solution at the moment. And could he have possibly afforded the cost of keeping her in the hospital? It would mean working all the time and spending less time with her.

The trip was a metaphor, Better to have gone on the trip when she asked. Any attempt to cram 'logic' into here is kind of doomed to failure.

Janey777 · 2009-03-06, 19:33

And again, Illusionary world scenes are just so damn brilliant. The idea itself is fantastic. The design of an every scene and every frame looks like a masterpiece to me, as if each sequence is very important. I really like how this idea of "big, white and empty world" was carried out - I was thinking about something similar before Clannad, and was surprised. Music works in a right way, too. It's stunningly beautiful. I even get dizzy while watching these scenes ~
This illusionnary world always seemed to be white in color... cold and emotionless. Probably represents death. And now that it's cold and covered in snow, it's essense is... blooming.

alu546 · 2009-03-06, 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klashikari

You can't make research on an unidentified illness like this, especially if only 1-2 individuals are afflicted by this (research fees are astronomic).
It is simply unrealistic, and it takes also an atrocious amount of time to even "identify" a pathogen. So especting a cure for a completely mythical illness is utterly impossible (THAT would be a real deus ex machina in the given situation of this series).

The series implied clearly that Nagisa's existence was solely relying on the town "health". Nagisa was supposed to be dead years before the actual plot, so her existence was a mere "borrowed time", which Ushio logically got as result.
The "unidentified" illness is not a plothole here: it is unidentified as it is something out of the science league, that's all.

I hve one issue with that, but its more of a personal belief.

That is that the towns health and Nagisa's health were a coincidence. Akio and Tomoya were trying to rationalize why their misfortune was occuring. Two things clearly happened, the town changed, and Nagisas health changed. That was all, or I could link every chronically ill persons health to be related to something vague like a town changing.

But that is a preferred belief juost because I dislike supernatural plot devices that seem out of place in these shows (Didnt like the Fuko orr Misae Arc for those reasons, even though it had emotional impact), nothing more really.

Ryuou · 2009-03-06, 19:39

Quote:

Ask yourself, would you rather spend all your time in a institutional setting (hospital) or rest at home? They had no clue what was wrong with her, so no real way to treat it. Staying at home was the best solution at the moment. And could he have possibly afforded the cost of keeping her in the hospital? It would mean working all the time and spending less time with her.

I wasn't talking about Ushio or Nagisa staying at a hospital. They just need a blood sample and then some checks here and there.

Quote:

You can't make research on an unidentified illness like this, especially if only 1-2 individuals are afflicted by this (research fees are astronomic).
It is simply unrealistic, and it takes also an atrocious amount of time to even "identify" a pathogen. So especting a cure for a completely mythical illness is utterly impossible (THAT would be a real deus ex machina in the given situation of this series).

The "unidentified" illness is not a plothole here: it is unidentified as it is something out of the science league, that's all.

No the illness is not a plot hole, I didn’t say that, it's a plot device, and an overly used and weak one at that. But I'm not complaining about that as it didn't really detract from the story for me (KyoAni and Key are good like that). And I'm not expecting a cure to pop out of nowhere. That would be weak. But viewing the illness realistically, (which doesn't work because it is a magical illness, I know) it's not too much to expect a little effort on the medical side. Who's to say that the illness has only 2 people suffering from it? (which it probably did) That's kind of the reason to start researching and searching for the cure to rare diseases/illnesses. It would've just made it feel less like some magical/fake illness. But again, this isn't a big complaint, just a minor thing I noticed. It didn't detract from the story hardly at all.

drpassafiume · 2009-03-06, 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenthehen

Just in case people haven't seen the episode yet:

Spoiler:

Abso-frikkin-lutely.

Spoiler for Episode 21:

Not that i know anything, I haven't played the game or anything, but if we all clear our minds, and FOCUS

on the way it SHOULD turn out, then we can BEND reality to our wishes. Everyone together now, put all of your mental enery into this, if anyone is actually psychic and can bend spoons and stuff then lend a hand to the ones who can only bend paperclips. Don't worry about the time-space continuumumum, it's just a big word scientists use for "I don't know,"

and if the fabric of reality does tear... well...

we won't be around to see it anyway, so don't opworry about it!

Just focus on the way it should be, the way it WILL be, make the universe bow to my... I mean, OUR, wishes... I'm counting on all of you!

If not I could always fly to japan and use less seemly means...

**Klashikari** · 2009-03-06, 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryuou

But viewing the illness realistically, (which doesn't work because it is a magical illness, I know) it's not too much to expect a little effort on the medical side. Who's to say that the illness has only 2 people suffering from it? (which it probably did) That's kind of the reason to start researching and searching for the cure to rare diseases/illnesses. It would've just made it feel less like some magical/fake illness. But again, this isn't a big complaint, just a minor thing I noticed. It didn't detract from the story hardly at all.

We can only assume that "they do their job". Well, it is unlikely that we can clarify if they are just loitering around or working like nuts over this (not enough data syndrom, i guess).

That said, given the fact how Nagisa's illness is bluntly idiopathic, that is really starting from scratch. Ideally, you cannot expect real research unless it is really lifethreatening on the long run.
Nagisa's health was known very poor, but it didn't prevent her to live normally, unless extreme situation came out. Therefore, you can't exactly expect research on the move for a dodgy and vicious illness that has no real etiology or symptoms aside of a strong and chronic fever, compared to usual and much "deadlier" ones (reality speaking or not).
Once Ushio was alive, none expected her to be afflicted by the same pathology, therefore, there was no room for time for research either. And once it hit her, it is too late (again, realistically speaking).

In fact, it is always difficult to admit "we can't do anything", and it is often as flat as this.

Tempester · 2009-03-06, 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by drpassafiume

Not that i know anything, I haven't played the game or anything, but if we all clear our minds, and FOCUS

on the way it SHOULD turn out, then we can BEND reality to our wishes. Everyone together now, put all of your mental enery into this, if anyone is actually psychic and can bend spoons and stuff then lend a hand to the ones who can only bend paperclips. Don't worry about the time-space continuumumum, it's just a big word scientists use for "I don't know,"

and if the fabric of reality does tear... well...

we won't be around to see it anyway, so don't opworry about it!

Just focus on the way it should be, the way it WILL be, make the universe bow to my... I mean, OUR, wishes... I'm counting on all of you!

If not I could always fly to japan and use less seemly means...

You obviously have a very strong will that might even clash with Jun Maeda's evil sadistic will and create an epic psychological battle.

That is, of course, if the two of you share a common language to battle with in.

alu546 · 2009-03-06, 20:11

It is a genetic thing, thats why nagisa passed it on to Ushio,

But the thing is, Ive never heard of a cure for genetic problems that cause chronic illness. I am surprised that they never drew blood on Ushio to check olut that stuff, but eh. I dont know what healthcare in Japan is like.

But speaking from what experience I have, genetic conditions feel really hopeless, and you get to the point where your almost like "to hell with the doctors, they cant do anything anyway".

As many other people have said, you get better rest at home than at a hospital anyway, and from the looks of it, thats the only thing that could be given.

And when youve been in Ushio's situation awhile, you realize wen the end is coming, and she chose to go out doing everything in her power to continue her life normally, no matter how short the time frame.

Nosauz · 2009-03-06, 20:18

except recently with stem cells, and to a point gene therapy, genetic disorders have become less and less life threatening. Though in all reality, we probably are slowly killing the gene pool, by having people survive artificially then through their own physical prowess. There is no selective pressures any more. Back to genetic disorders, also on top of that there is now lots of prenatal screening to help with finding out if the fetus is genetically healthy.

Ushio and Nagisa's healthy is linked in magic/fantasy and not some realistic disease say leukemia. The whole notion of trying to look at their illness in the terms of science is just too hard, because theres just no precedent of their disease and the fact that most likely the disease is caused by some mystical effect and not one based on the reality we believe in.

RandomFlameStrike · 2009-03-06, 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by drpassafiume

Abso-frikkin-lutely.

Spoiler for Episode 21:

Not that i know anything, I haven't played the game or anything, but if we all clear our minds, and FOCUS

on the way it SHOULD turn out, then we can BEND reality to our wishes. Everyone together now, put all of your mental enery into this, if anyone is actually psychic and can bend spoons and stuff then lend a hand to the ones who can only bend paperclips. Don't worry about the time-space continuumumum, it's just a big word scientists use for "I don't know,"

and if the fabric of reality does tear... well...

we won't be around to see it anyway, so don't opworry about it!

Just focus on the way it should be, the way it WILL be, make the universe bow to my... I mean, OUR, wishes... I'm counting on all of you!

If not I could always fly to japan and use less seemly means...

YES, WE CAN!!! Come on everyone, focus your mental powers and force a happy ending to come about!! Damit Tomoya use some magic or something and heal Ushio!! T.T Since the stupid plot device illness is clearly magical in nature, it must be countered with more magic/miracles! Hey if it happend in Kanon, it can happen again!!
Hm it's a little annoying that Key keeps on using wierd illnessess that are conviently out side of the relm of science (Magic 1000 year old curse, unknown illness without a name, chronic heavy fevers with no reason for them). However, the excecution is pretty damn good and it keeps me crying ><.
Also to anyone thinking a hospital would have helped Ushio: No you are just deluding yourself or looking for a reason to go out of your way and bash the story x.x. It's like saying Misuzu would have been saved if she was in a hospital instead of spending time with her mom.

Ryuou · 2009-03-06, 20:27

Quote:

We can only assume that "they do their job". Well, it is unlikely that we can clarify if they are just loitering around or working like nuts over this (not enough data syndrom, i guess).

Yeah we don't really know if anything has been done about it: we're never told. But we can assume nothing has as there was no mention of anything from the doctor that checked out Ushio.

Quote:

That said, given the fact how Nagisa's illness is bluntly idiopathic, that is really starting from scratch. Ideally, you cannot expect real research unless it is really lifethreatening on the long run.
Nagisa's health was known very poor, but it didn't prevent her to live normally, unless extreme situation came out. Therefore, you can't exactly expect research on the move for a dodgy and vicious illness that has no real etiology or symptoms aside of a strong and chronic fever, compared to usual and much "deadlier" ones (reality speaking or not).
Once Ushio was alive, none expected her to be afflicted by the same pathology, therefore, there was no room for time for research either. And once it hit her, it is too late (again, realistically speaking).

Which is kind of what I expected to happen. I'm not expecting a cure; I'm expecting the process of researching it to have started. Don't most rare diseases start off similarly? They have to start somewhere. And it was life threatening. Nagisa was supposed to die at age 5, but miraculously survived. Her illness seems to be very similar to AIDS (in effect, not necessarily the process). AIDS similarly results in people potentially dying from simple colds and fevers, and yet it's been researched for a long time. Granted, the difference in people affected. But that's why I'm not saying that I expect a full-fledged research project to be underway, but the gears should start to move with some calls to other hospitals to check for other patients with similar symptoms. They all probably start out like this. But alas, we're dealing with the weak body/illness plot device, so there's only so much we can really expect.

Quote:

Magic 1000 year old curse

I actually didn't have any problem really with this one as it was kind of tied into destiny which doesn't feel as contrived.

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2009-03-06, 16:16	Link #61
cbatty Such is liff Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Brisbane, Australia Age: 52	Wow - I can't say that this was unexpected. I was sad but there were no tears. I still hold on to hope. Hope for a happy ending for Tomoya. Everything seemed to be converging towards the final scene.... Spoiler for Full Circle: There has to be a larger meaning here, with Tomoya and Ushio taking a trip, and in almost exactly the same way the girl and the robot taking a trip. Both seemed destined to fail and of course, both did, with both Ushio and the girl collapsing, and Tomoya and the robot standing by helpless. Then we returned to the very start of the story. What path will Tomoya take? I can't be certain what the meaning of it all is. I am sure the gamers out there will know, though whether KyoAni take some creative license for themselves alter the final meaning means that we all cannot be completely sure. I take solace in the title of next weeks episode "The Palm of a Small Hand" This suggests reaching out, of offering your hand, palm up to someone. And with the way the final scene closes, with Tomoya and Nagisa standing next to each other on the hill... It will be a long wait until next week.

2009-03-06, 18:51	Link #64
Janey777 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2007	Spoiler for the holy field: Little Nagisa was saved after being brought to a holy field. When a hospital was being built there, as she was about to give a birth. It was a sign! But no, nobody expected a sick girl with risky pregnancy to have an early delivery. Hospital is built! And Ushio keeps coming there. After she gets ill and can't recover for another mounth and nothing can be done - still no hospitalisation. Yeah Who needs hospitals anyway.

2009-03-06, 17:41	Link #62
X207 Gamyūsa Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Montreal	they really should accept anpan as a curse. tomoya really cant get a break when it omes to nagisa. its so cruel and i hope that something happens to save ushio. how many eps are there left until the season is finished?

2009-03-06, 19:08	Link #65
alu546 y prime Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: The South Age: 36	Seems like Kyou may play a big role in getting Tomoya over this, or atleast Id expect her to, Tomoya has always needed outside help in order to cope with his major problems, and since she still cares and promised help last episode, id expect to see her next week.

2009-03-06, 19:10	Link #68
Ryuou 進む道は武士道のみ Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago) Age: 36	Oh, I remembered the other thing that I was thinking about last night. That damn doctor that checked on Ushio. What was up with his attitude? "Oh no, it's the same as Nagisa. There's nothing we can do and there's no hope at all. Well, I'll just let myself out. See ya." (Not exact quote) I thought it was kind of cold. Especially coming from what seems to be a family doctor. And another thing, why has there been no research into Nagisa's illness? What did doctors do after they found out she had an unknown illness? Just decide to forget about? I find it a little ridiculous that no amount of research (seemingly) was put into this illness, and that nothing was accomplished in the 15+ year span between Nagisa's and Ushio's 'diagnosis'.

2009-03-06, 19:21	Link #70
SageGaiGar You are Next Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: NE USA	Ask yourself, would you rather spend all your time in a institutional setting (hospital) or rest at home? They had no clue what was wrong with her, so no real way to treat it. Staying at home was the best solution at the moment. And could he have possibly afforded the cost of keeping her in the hospital? It would mean working all the time and spending less time with her. The trip was a metaphor, Better to have gone on the trip when she asked. Any attempt to cram 'logic' into here is kind of doomed to failure.

2009-03-06, 19:33	Link #71
Janey777 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2007	And again, Illusionary world scenes are just so damn brilliant. The idea itself is fantastic. The design of an every scene and every frame looks like a masterpiece to me, as if each sequence is very important. I really like how this idea of "big, white and empty world" was carried out - I was thinking about something similar before Clannad, and was surprised. Music works in a right way, too. It's stunningly beautiful. I even get dizzy while watching these scenes ~ This illusionnary world always seemed to be white in color... cold and emotionless. Probably represents death. And now that it's cold and covered in snow, it's essense is... blooming.

2009-03-06, 20:11	Link #77
alu546 y prime Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: The South Age: 36	It is a genetic thing, thats why nagisa passed it on to Ushio, But the thing is, Ive never heard of a cure for genetic problems that cause chronic illness. I am surprised that they never drew blood on Ushio to check olut that stuff, but eh. I dont know what healthcare in Japan is like. But speaking from what experience I have, genetic conditions feel really hopeless, and you get to the point where your almost like "to hell with the doctors, they cant do anything anyway". As many other people have said, you get better rest at home than at a hospital anyway, and from the looks of it, thats the only thing that could be given. And when youve been in Ushio's situation awhile, you realize wen the end is coming, and she chose to go out doing everything in her power to continue her life normally, no matter how short the time frame.

2009-03-06, 20:18	Link #78
Nosauz Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Age: 35	except recently with stem cells, and to a point gene therapy, genetic disorders have become less and less life threatening. Though in all reality, we probably are slowly killing the gene pool, by having people survive artificially then through their own physical prowess. There is no selective pressures any more. Back to genetic disorders, also on top of that there is now lots of prenatal screening to help with finding out if the fetus is genetically healthy. Ushio and Nagisa's healthy is linked in magic/fantasy and not some realistic disease say leukemia. The whole notion of trying to look at their illness in the terms of science is just too hard, because theres just no precedent of their disease and the fact that most likely the disease is caused by some mystical effect and not one based on the reality we believe in.