AnimeSuki Forums

Rising Dragon · 2009-06-10, 04:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheba

No it is not. That's what the antagonists in StrikerS did. How else would they do otherwise against the overwhelming firepower of the Aces?

He meant it'd look out of place if the protagonists, a.k.a. those Aces you mentioned, were doing the cloak-and-dagger stuff.

narubu · 2009-06-10, 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dri

We don't talk about that. Like, ever.

Really now though, Hayate, corrupt?

I'm truly sorry, I didn't mean to start something like this. Please forgive me.

Keroko · 2009-06-10, 13:38

Hahaha! Don't worry about it, Dri was joking.

narubu · 2009-06-10, 13:45

Oh really? Ahaha, well guess that just goes to show how much of a newbie I am to this place.

yezhanquan · 2009-06-10, 18:42

I think more to the point is that Nanoha and Fate vs. Hayate is already done in A'. We don't need to do it again. Nanoha befriends those she likes, and it stays that way.

Evil Rick · 2009-06-10, 21:45

The answer is simply, Nanoha needs a really good villan, because villans make the heroes.

Batman has the Joker
Spider-man has Venom
Lara Croft has Amanda
Superman has Lex Luthor
Wolverine has Sabertooth
Ryu has Akuma

Hayate is not villan for Nanoha.

yezhanquan · 2009-06-10, 21:46

I believe the term you're looking for is "nemesis".

Evil Rick · 2009-06-10, 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

I believe the term you're looking for is "nemesis".

It could be, but I think that the role of "Nemesis" belongs to Fate, the nemesis must not be necesary the villan.

Example: Sonic the Hedgeog.

The nemesis of Sonic is Shadow, but the villan is Dr. Eggman.

yezhanquan · 2009-06-10, 21:56

Shadow and Fate would be more accurately descripted as the antithesis of Sonic and Nanoha.

Nagumo · 2009-06-10, 23:26

You know, the idea of a corrupt Hayate never really crosses my mind.

I always kind of imagined she wanted to climb the ranks and into power because of what had happened to her as a child.

She was nine years old when the "Book of Darkness" thing happened. All of a sudden, she realized that a single powerful individual, residing impervious and comfortable, in another dimension had decided that she needed to be killed/sealed away for all of eternity without her knowing.

I think Hayate saw just how powerless she was at and decided then and there, she never wanted to helpless again. She would never let someone else decide her fate, therefore she decided she needed power.

So she goes and joins the TSAB, aiming straight to the top to protect herself. It always amazed me that she so easily brushed off Admiral Graham's attempted murder without any visible trauma.

I mean, I would react pretty badly if I found out that the one person who cared about my health, sent money and letters to me and probably thought rather highly of (perhaps her parent's good friend?), was pretty much doing it because he wanted me to die with a minimum amount of pain when the time comes.

In other words, she's power hungry because she doesn't want to be a victim ever again. The spillover effect, luckily, is that she wants to prevent what happened to her from happening to anyone else.

Dri · 2009-06-10, 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keroko

Hahaha! Don't worry about it, Dri was joking.

OR WAS I?

...

Yes, yes I was. <_<

yezhanquan · 2009-06-11, 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nagumo

You know, the idea of a corrupt Hayate never really crosses my mind.

I always kind of imagined she wanted to climb the ranks and into power because of what had happened to her as a child.

She was nine years old when the "Book of Darkness" thing happened. All of a sudden, she realized that a single powerful individual, residing impervious and comfortable, in another dimension had decided that she needed to be killed/sealed away for all of eternity without her knowing.

I think Hayate saw just how powerless she was at and decided then and there, she never wanted to helpless again. She would never let someone else decide her fate, therefore she decided she needed power.

So she goes and joins the TSAB, aiming straight to the top to protect herself. It always amazed me that she so easily brushed off Admiral Graham's attempted murder without any visible trauma.

I mean, I would react pretty badly if I found out that the one person who cared about my health, sent money and letters to me and probably thought rather highly of (perhaps her parent's good friend?), was pretty much doing it because he wanted me to die with a minimum amount of pain when the time comes.

In other words, she's power hungry because she doesn't want to be a victim ever again. The spillover effect, luckily, is that she wants to prevent what happened to her from happening to anyone else.

Look up Woobie Destroyer of Worlds at TV Tropes. Hayate has an entry there.

Evil Rick · 2009-06-11, 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

Shadow and Fate would be more accurately descripted as the antithesis of Sonic and Fate.

Well, nemesis is like anthithesis in a way, doesn't? Like the equal in power, the rival.

Well then, another example: Mortal Kombat.

Scorpion's nemesis is Sub-Zero, but the villan is Quan Chii.

itanshi1 · 2009-06-11, 00:50

I think the problem is the difference between a major villain to conquer or a villain that is always there despite anything you try to do to change that. Immortal or not, for the sake of the plot this villain has no end game.

The joker for instance stands as a villain whom is always there. Light without shadow is shadow without light. Antithesis implies coexistence. it implies if one falls, the other is useless. This is not some punk like Jail, this is Nanoha versus Deadpool which I find hilarious I might add.

yezhanquan · 2009-06-11, 00:52

Let's face it: After season 1, can anyone imagine Nanoha without Fate, or vice versa? There you go.

Arkeus · 2009-06-11, 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

Let's face it: After season 1, can anyone imagine Nanoha without Fate, or vice versa? There you go.

Given that they do pass most of their time without each other?

Yes we can.

yezhanquan · 2009-06-11, 01:01

Well, they have each other on their minds, all the time. That says a lot more than being physcially together all the time.

Avatar_notADV · 2009-06-11, 01:02

Gotta keep in mind the Knights, who are a very-stabilizing influence on Hayate. Sure, she got betrayed by the distant benefactor, but by then she'd formed a close relationship with four people for whom she was, is, and will remain the most important person in the whole world.

But it goes farther than that. The Knights don't just give Hayate friendship, but also something to live up to. They're impossibly loyal, noble, heroic, and self-sacrificing, and so Hayate has to exhibit those virtues herself to be worthy of them. She can't take them for granted, because to do that would be like saying to them that they were just tools, not people, just like their previous masters had treated them. In other words, taking their loyalty for granted, instead of earning it every day, would be the worst possible thing she could do to them; it'd make her, in her own mind, evil. Of course, it doesn't hurt that they all like each other a lot, so ordinary consideration helps there too.

But because of that, Hayate couldn't really go rogue in the first place. Not because there's no cause that would merit it, but because the Knights would more or less be forced to come along, and then everyone would assume that they were evil the whole time and just playing nice for a while, and Hayate can't DO that to them. She can't even ask them if she can, because they can't say no to her.

And you guys are mistaking nemeses for rivals. A nemesis is a recurring villain, the guy you don't beat even if you manage to foil his plot; he'll be back another day for another shot at you. The rival is concerned with out-doing you, and even if the rival is opposed to you, there's a lot of ways a rival can't win. If two people are rivals for the title of best swordsman in the world, one of them can't stab the other one in the back one night... that wouldn't constitute "victory". The nemesis has other goals, and will cut you dead to get them done.

Fate and Nanoha were rivals for a part of S1, but not really. Fate's not trying to surpass Nanoha, she's trying to do what her mom says, and Nanoha's just an inconveniently cute and earnest obstacle. You can make a case that Nanoha and Vita, and also Fate and Signum, are rivals, but by Strikers it's definitely been resolved and they're just good friends.

Evil Rick · 2009-06-11, 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by itanshi1

this is Nanoha versus Deadpool which I find hilarious I might add.

Hah! That would be good.

Rising Dragon · 2009-06-11, 01:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

Shadow and Fate would be more accurately descripted as the antithesis of Sonic and Fate.

So, um, how is Fate the antithesis of herself?

2009-06-10, 13:45	Link #2244
narubu =^_^= Join Date: Mar 2009	Oh really? Ahaha, well guess that just goes to show how much of a newbie I am to this place. __________________ .

2009-06-10, 18:42	Link #2245
yezhanquan Observer/Bookman wannabe Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Singapore Age: 38	I think more to the point is that Nanoha and Fate vs. Hayate is already done in A'. We don't need to do it again. Nanoha befriends those she likes, and it stays that way. __________________

2009-06-10, 21:45	Link #2246
Evil Rick Black Dragon Graphic Designer Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: In the Netherrealm, thinking who to betray next...	The answer is simply, Nanoha needs a really good villan, because villans make the heroes. Batman has the Joker Spider-man has Venom Lara Croft has Amanda Superman has Lex Luthor Wolverine has Sabertooth Ryu has Akuma Hayate is not villan for Nanoha. __________________

2009-06-10, 21:46	Link #2247
yezhanquan Observer/Bookman wannabe Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Singapore Age: 38	I believe the term you're looking for is "nemesis". __________________

2009-06-10, 21:56	Link #2249
yezhanquan Observer/Bookman wannabe Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Singapore Age: 38	Shadow and Fate would be more accurately descripted as the antithesis of Sonic and Nanoha. __________________ Last edited by yezhanquan; 2009-06-11 at 02:25.

2009-06-10, 13:38	Link #2243
Keroko Adeptus Animus Author Join Date: Jan 2007 Age: 36	Hahaha! Don't worry about it, Dri was joking.

2009-06-10, 23:26	Link #2250
Nagumo Random Translator Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New Brunswick	You know, the idea of a corrupt Hayate never really crosses my mind. I always kind of imagined she wanted to climb the ranks and into power because of what had happened to her as a child. She was nine years old when the "Book of Darkness" thing happened. All of a sudden, she realized that a single powerful individual, residing impervious and comfortable, in another dimension had decided that she needed to be killed/sealed away for all of eternity without her knowing. I think Hayate saw just how powerless she was at and decided then and there, she never wanted to helpless again. She would never let someone else decide her fate, therefore she decided she needed power. So she goes and joins the TSAB, aiming straight to the top to protect herself. It always amazed me that she so easily brushed off Admiral Graham's attempted murder without any visible trauma. I mean, I would react pretty badly if I found out that the one person who cared about my health, sent money and letters to me and probably thought rather highly of (perhaps her parent's good friend?), was pretty much doing it because he wanted me to die with a minimum amount of pain when the time comes. In other words, she's power hungry because she doesn't want to be a victim ever again. The spillover effect, luckily, is that she wants to prevent what happened to her from happening to anyone else. __________________ I do not like Kansai-ben, but I do like Hayate-chan! Also, Canadian here, not actually Japanese.

2009-06-11, 00:50	Link #2254
itanshi1 Writer, Jester, MtG nerd Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Nanoha Used Car Dealership. RERISE!	I think the problem is the difference between a major villain to conquer or a villain that is always there despite anything you try to do to change that. Immortal or not, for the sake of the plot this villain has no end game. The joker for instance stands as a villain whom is always there. Light without shadow is shadow without light. Antithesis implies coexistence. it implies if one falls, the other is useless. This is not some punk like Jail, this is Nanoha versus Deadpool which I find hilarious I might add. __________________ For those that belittle their favorite characters, complain about pairings, complain about oversexed images. Stop, thank you. Fear Anxiety Doubt is but a fad. The life of a fad depends entirely on the willingness to support it. Difficulty is a choice. Determination is a path. Your next great idea after your destination is the true goal.

2009-06-11, 00:52	Link #2255
yezhanquan Observer/Bookman wannabe Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Singapore Age: 38	Let's face it: After season 1, can anyone imagine Nanoha without Fate, or vice versa? There you go. __________________

2009-06-11, 01:01	Link #2257
yezhanquan Observer/Bookman wannabe Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Singapore Age: 38	Well, they have each other on their minds, all the time. That says a lot more than being physcially together all the time. __________________

2009-06-11, 01:02	Link #2258
Avatar_notADV Once and Current Subber Join Date: Dec 2005	Gotta keep in mind the Knights, who are a very-stabilizing influence on Hayate. Sure, she got betrayed by the distant benefactor, but by then she'd formed a close relationship with four people for whom she was, is, and will remain the most important person in the whole world. But it goes farther than that. The Knights don't just give Hayate friendship, but also something to live up to. They're impossibly loyal, noble, heroic, and self-sacrificing, and so Hayate has to exhibit those virtues herself to be worthy of them. She can't take them for granted, because to do that would be like saying to them that they were just tools, not people, just like their previous masters had treated them. In other words, taking their loyalty for granted, instead of earning it every day, would be the worst possible thing she could do to them; it'd make her, in her own mind, evil. Of course, it doesn't hurt that they all like each other a lot, so ordinary consideration helps there too. But because of that, Hayate couldn't really go rogue in the first place. Not because there's no cause that would merit it, but because the Knights would more or less be forced to come along, and then everyone would assume that they were evil the whole time and just playing nice for a while, and Hayate can't DO that to them. She can't even ask them if she can, because they can't say no to her. And you guys are mistaking nemeses for rivals. A nemesis is a recurring villain, the guy you don't beat even if you manage to foil his plot; he'll be back another day for another shot at you. The rival is concerned with out-doing you, and even if the rival is opposed to you, there's a lot of ways a rival can't win. If two people are rivals for the title of best swordsman in the world, one of them can't stab the other one in the back one night... that wouldn't constitute "victory". The nemesis has other goals, and will cut you dead to get them done. Fate and Nanoha were rivals for a part of S1, but not really. Fate's not trying to surpass Nanoha, she's trying to do what her mom says, and Nanoha's just an inconveniently cute and earnest obstacle. You can make a case that Nanoha and Vita, and also Fate and Signum, are rivals, but by Strikers it's definitely been resolved and they're just good friends.