AnimeSuki Forums

Ithekro · 2009-07-17, 01:12

Question on the "????" section in relation to them being shown in the anime. They read like they are breaking the fourth wall (talking to the player rather than Battler). How will that work out do you think? Aside of course for laughing Scary Bern (and Lambda) that is, since that would be a rather terrifying thing to see as the last thing in the season.

chronotrig · 2009-07-17, 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Question on the "????" section in relation to them being shown in the anime. They read like they are breaking the fourth wall (talking to the player rather than Battler). How will that work out do you think? Aside of course for laughing Scary Bern that is, since that would be a rather terrifying thing to see as the last thing in the season.

The 'breaking of the fourth wall' really only happens for the first 30 seconds or so, and then it settles down.

I guess he wanted players to think it was a non-important chat like in Higurashi, but then pull a fast one on us and make it real. Actually, even though we don't know how they got there (neither do they, it seems), the only real breaking of the fourth wall is the mention of "Umineko no naku koro ni".
Most of the rest can be interpreted as fitting in with the story. Also, we assume that the tea parties are being told from a third person perspective, but it might actually be from someone's viewpoint...i.e. someone who the characters can talk to.

Since the first tea party is the start of the Meta world, I'm sure we'll get some concrete answers in the answer arcs. Until then, we can only guess.

Saerianne · 2009-07-17, 01:30

I'm completely staying out of the Anime viewers only thread, because I'll get to tempted to blurt something out.
I think Bern will just talk to 'us' (or whoever it was meant to be aimed at. Either way, it did look like she was talking to the viewers, though we don't know this for certain).
Haha, I still like how Beato overheard Bern's talk and then revealed it in ep 2.

Jan-Poo · 2009-07-17, 07:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Question on the "????" section in relation to them being shown in the anime. They read like they are breaking the fourth wall (talking to the player rather than Battler). How will that work out do you think? Aside of course for laughing Scary Bern (and Lambda) that is, since that would be a rather terrifying thing to see as the last thing in the season.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chronotrig

The 'breaking of the fourth wall' really only happens for the first 30 seconds or so, and then it settles down.

I guess he wanted players to think it was a non-important chat like in Higurashi, but then pull a fast one on us and make it real. Actually, even though we don't know how they got there (neither do they, it seems), the only real breaking of the fourth wall is the mention of "Umineko no naku koro ni".
Most of the rest can be interpreted as fitting in with the story. Also, we assume that the tea parties are being told from a third person perspective, but it might actually be from someone's viewpoint...i.e. someone who the characters can talk to.

Since the first tea party is the start of the Meta world, I'm sure we'll get some concrete answers in the answer arcs. Until then, we can only guess.

Actually I thought EP4 clarified this. They were talking to Battler. Why?
Because there's absolutely no scene where you see them talking to Battler before EP4, and yet again when they appear in EP4 Battler says he seem to remember them. The only time when he could have "met" them was during the secret tea parties, in other words they were talking to Battler.

Of course this doesn't mean the fourth wall wasn't broken. Ryukishi skillfully made it so to make them appear to talk to the Novel Readers, but storywise they were talking to Battler.

chounokoe · 2009-07-17, 08:06

I just wanted to ask, regarding the first time viewers thread, how far one should go with revealing something about the legend of Beatrice, that is passed on among the servants.
Until now it has been partlz left out of the picture...especially the story about Beatrice-sama descending from the painting at midnight and playing pranks in the mansion.
It's rather tempting to tell this to the first time viewers, as it is already common knowledge in the VN at this point, but COULD still be mentioned in the anime...I wanted to share this question with some people and ask for opinions before directly posting it in the first-timer thread and risking a ban...

Christen · 2009-07-17, 08:33

I think it's just better to leave it as it is for the anime viewers. That isn't really a crucial point at this stage in the anime. We can fill them in on very important parts as long as it doesn't cross the border of spoilers.

chronotrig · 2009-07-17, 10:01

I agree. Let's give the anime a chance at telling the full story.
If people want to know more, they can just decide to play the game. Everyone knows that the game is much more in depth by now.

Also, one thing I noticed about the Higurashi series. Even if you only watch the anime and see tons of things cut out, the story as a whole still works. If you then go on to play the game, it's like playing an entirely different story, where all the pieces of the anime come together beautifully.
I think it's worth giving the anime viewers that opportunity, instead of hand-feeding them random bits of info.

Alaya · 2009-07-17, 11:37

I think what we can talk with them is what it's already shown in anime (something that is shown but is adapted badly). Or we can talk with unrelated stuff to the plot (or make it very very obscure that it's not look like to the plot).

I think Jan-poo and Christen did pretty well regarding not to give out important stuffs but still manage to talk with them, so the post from VN reader there could follow their style, in my opinion.

MeoTwister5 · 2009-07-17, 11:43

I've edited most of my posts in the anime threads once or twice either because I said something I shouldn't, or removed something that would probably be better of unsaid anyway.

The only times you could be blunt about certain things is when the series decides to forego some points that you feel is important.

Personally I'm just going to list out the things the series left out at the end of Ep1 for anyone interested in knowing things the anime decided not to show.

Jan-Poo · 2009-07-18, 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alaya

I think what we can talk with them is what it's already shown in anime (something that is shown but is adapted badly). Or we can talk with unrelated stuff to the plot (or make it very very obscure that it's not look like to the plot).

I think Jan-poo and Christen did pretty well regarding not to give out important stuffs but still manage to talk with them, so the post from VN reader there could follow their style, in my opinion.

Right, as I said in the episode3, I'm of the opinion this should be dealt case by case. The absolute rule is "if it isn't shown in the VN at this point, don't tell", obviously.

As for everything that is said and omitted in the anime I usually ask myself

1) is this something relevant to the plot?

If yes then I usually don't tell, because there's a high probability this would be told later. In case it isn't there's always time to tell.
If not and if revealing this would help removing some misgivings (such as Battler touching Shannon's breast) then I think it is safe to tell.

Another thing that it is safe to tell, are particulars of the crime scenes, once they are shown. But that is pretty much covered by Klashikari's TIPS.

Anyway right now I'm asking myself what to do about the rank thing. I thought it was going to be told in Episode1-2 but it wasn't and now it's kinda too late. Unless this is going to be explained somehow on ep2-X.

Even in the case we decide to explain the ranks, should we say Maria is 10th in the rank (as it should be) or 9th (as it was said erroneously in the manga)?

The Novel is quite clever with this. It starts by telling the ranks of the four siblings, then it doesn't say anything about the cousins, when Natsuhi's turn comes, Battler says she's on the tenth "seat".

rogerpepitone · 2009-07-18, 10:19

I don't think Shannon's fake; George hasn't noticed any substitution, and in ep. 3, she correctly remembers Battler's last words.

Ithekro · 2009-07-18, 12:28

I wonder. Could the seating/ranking description been left out because they could show us rather than tell us about it? In a VN you don't have all that many pictures angles. In the anime you have a clear view of the table with everyone seated. Does it need to be explained why they are seated that way? Couldn't the audiance figure that out by were everyone is sitting?

Jan-Poo · 2009-07-18, 12:49

Really? It would never cross my mind to be honest. Certainly if someone told me: "don't you think it's strange Natsuhi, Hideyoshi and Kyrie sit so distant from their respective husbands/wives?" Then I'd say oh that's right, but to come up with that "rank" thing you need way more than that.

Ithekro · 2009-07-18, 13:24

It may not be a matter of if the viewer can get it, but more that te company thinks the viewer can get it without needing a monologue out of Battler to do it. It may not work, but then the question would be, "is it that important?" Is it in term of the plot? Or is it just a detail that one could pickup as one goes along?

Jan-Poo · 2009-07-18, 15:26

I don't think it's relevant to the plot, and for that very reason it wouldn't hurt to explain this thing to whoever wants to know more of this story without having to read the whole novel.

The problem with this, is that right now it is impossible to explain the rank system without talking about Ange. And Ange IS important for the plot.

EDIT:

BTW, after seeing the preview of the next episode, it looks like everything will be covered untill Natsuhi drives the servants and Maria out of Kinzo's room. (I wonder if Beatrice's portrait will reappear then).

But then what will be left for episode5? I imagined the tea party + ??? would take half episode. But with what is going to remain after ep4, they are either going to drastically slow the pace or there isn't really enough.

Or maybe ep5 will contain that surprise Ryukishi promised?

Christen · 2009-07-18, 23:14

Episode 5's tea party might be longer than we expected? Or they'll probably take the ending of Episode 1 with the ending scroll. It would be nice if we get to hear Bring The Fate.

k//eternal · 2009-07-19, 00:47

I'm still thinking the first "ending" needs to take place in episode 5, in part because of the ep titles. With "first move" in episode 2 and "fool's mate" in episode 5, this is consistent with losing in 4 moves, and so the loss can't take place before that.

Incidentally, it's a kind of odd thought that the moves they're making in EP1 lead to a kind of "fool's mate", because it implies that they're basically proceeding in the worst possible fashion. Wonder if the final solution will be consistent with that notion.

Alaya · 2009-07-19, 04:54

It's interested me that many people want Umineko to be like Higurashi. After reading through some blogs, they are disappointing because no one go psycho and start killing everyone around them. Or it's not scary enough.

I guess they are going to be really disappointing after episode 5 or 6.

Jan-Poo · 2009-07-19, 07:03

A part of them certainly but I still hope the others will get to understand that this series is not Higurashi2, and appreciate it for what it is.

sento · 2009-07-19, 07:23

I still don't understand why some people believe that Higurashi is about "killer lolis"... The shadow of Higurashi S1 is long indeed...

2009-07-17, 01:12	Link #1241
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 47	Question on the "????" section in relation to them being shown in the anime. They read like they are breaking the fourth wall (talking to the player rather than Battler). How will that work out do you think? Aside of course for laughing Scary Bern (and Lambda) that is, since that would be a rather terrifying thing to see as the last thing in the season. __________________ Last edited by Ithekro; 2009-07-17 at 01:50.

2009-07-17, 08:06	Link #1245
chounokoe Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Düsseldorf, Germany Age: 40	I just wanted to ask, regarding the first time viewers thread, how far one should go with revealing something about the legend of Beatrice, that is passed on among the servants. Until now it has been partlz left out of the picture...especially the story about Beatrice-sama descending from the painting at midnight and playing pranks in the mansion. It's rather tempting to tell this to the first time viewers, as it is already common knowledge in the VN at this point, but COULD still be mentioned in the anime...I wanted to share this question with some people and ask for opinions before directly posting it in the first-timer thread and risking a ban... __________________ 愛が無ければ・・・視えない！！

2009-07-17, 10:01	Link #1247
chronotrig Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Buffer overflow	I agree. Let's give the anime a chance at telling the full story. If people want to know more, they can just decide to play the game. Everyone knows that the game is much more in depth by now. Also, one thing I noticed about the Higurashi series. Even if you only watch the anime and see tons of things cut out, the story as a whole still works. If you then go on to play the game, it's like playing an entirely different story, where all the pieces of the anime come together beautifully. I think it's worth giving the anime viewers that opportunity, instead of hand-feeding them random bits of info. __________________ "The only moral it is possible to draw from this story is that one should never throw the letter 'q' into a privet bush. But, unfortunately, there are times when it is unavoidable." --Hitchhikers www.witch-hunt.com Theory page

2009-07-17, 11:37	Link #1248
Alaya Counter Force Join Date: Nov 2007	I think what we can talk with them is what it's already shown in anime (something that is shown but is adapted badly). Or we can talk with unrelated stuff to the plot (or make it very very obscure that it's not look like to the plot). I think Jan-poo and Christen did pretty well regarding not to give out important stuffs but still manage to talk with them, so the post from VN reader there could follow their style, in my opinion. __________________ Fate/Zero: This was the tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and was driven to despair by them. Madoka: This was the tale of magical girls whose wishes are pure and by them are driven to despair.

2009-07-17, 11:43	Link #1249
MeoTwister5 Komrades of Kitamura Kou Join Date: Jul 2004 Age: 39	I've edited most of my posts in the anime threads once or twice either because I said something I shouldn't, or removed something that would probably be better of unsaid anyway. The only times you could be blunt about certain things is when the series decides to forego some points that you feel is important. Personally I'm just going to list out the things the series left out at the end of Ep1 for anyone interested in knowing things the anime decided not to show. __________________ Medical Student vs. Anime Last Exile - Fam the Silver Wing -

2009-07-17, 01:30	Link #1243
Saerianne cackle Join Date: Jan 2009 Age: 29	I'm completely staying out of the Anime viewers only thread, because I'll get to tempted to blurt something out. I think Bern will just talk to 'us' (or whoever it was meant to be aimed at. Either way, it did look like she was talking to the viewers, though we don't know this for certain). Haha, I still like how Beato overheard Bern's talk and then revealed it in ep 2.

2009-07-17, 08:33	Link #1246
Christen Endless Nine Artist Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: In a certain tropical island Age: 39	I think it's just better to leave it as it is for the anime viewers. That isn't really a crucial point at this stage in the anime. We can fill them in on very important parts as long as it doesn't cross the border of spoilers.

2009-07-18, 10:19	Link #1251
rogerpepitone Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008	I don't think Shannon's fake; George hasn't noticed any substitution, and in ep. 3, she correctly remembers Battler's last words.

2009-07-18, 12:28	Link #1252
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 47	I wonder. Could the seating/ranking description been left out because they could show us rather than tell us about it? In a VN you don't have all that many pictures angles. In the anime you have a clear view of the table with everyone seated. Does it need to be explained why they are seated that way? Couldn't the audiance figure that out by were everyone is sitting? __________________

2009-07-18, 12:49	Link #1253
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Really? It would never cross my mind to be honest. Certainly if someone told me: "don't you think it's strange Natsuhi, Hideyoshi and Kyrie sit so distant from their respective husbands/wives?" Then I'd say oh that's right, but to come up with that "rank" thing you need way more than that. __________________

2009-07-18, 13:24	Link #1254
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 47	It may not be a matter of if the viewer can get it, but more that te company thinks the viewer can get it without needing a monologue out of Battler to do it. It may not work, but then the question would be, "is it that important?" Is it in term of the plot? Or is it just a detail that one could pickup as one goes along? __________________

2009-07-18, 15:26	Link #1255
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	I don't think it's relevant to the plot, and for that very reason it wouldn't hurt to explain this thing to whoever wants to know more of this story without having to read the whole novel. The problem with this, is that right now it is impossible to explain the rank system without talking about Ange. And Ange IS important for the plot. EDIT: BTW, after seeing the preview of the next episode, it looks like everything will be covered untill Natsuhi drives the servants and Maria out of Kinzo's room. (I wonder if Beatrice's portrait will reappear then). But then what will be left for episode5? I imagined the tea party + ??? would take half episode. But with what is going to remain after ep4, they are either going to drastically slow the pace or there isn't really enough. Or maybe ep5 will contain that surprise Ryukishi promised? __________________ Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2009-07-18 at 21:32.

2009-07-18, 23:14	Link #1256
Christen Endless Nine Artist Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: In a certain tropical island Age: 39	Episode 5's tea party might be longer than we expected? Or they'll probably take the ending of Episode 1 with the ending scroll. It would be nice if we get to hear Bring The Fate.

2009-07-19, 00:47	Link #1257
k//eternal do you know ベアトリーチェ様? Join Date: Dec 2003 Age: 36	I'm still thinking the first "ending" needs to take place in episode 5, in part because of the ep titles. With "first move" in episode 2 and "fool's mate" in episode 5, this is consistent with losing in 4 moves, and so the loss can't take place before that. Incidentally, it's a kind of odd thought that the moves they're making in EP1 lead to a kind of "fool's mate", because it implies that they're basically proceeding in the worst possible fashion. Wonder if the final solution will be consistent with that notion.

2009-07-19, 04:54	Link #1258
Alaya Counter Force Join Date: Nov 2007	It's interested me that many people want Umineko to be like Higurashi. After reading through some blogs, they are disappointing because no one go psycho and start killing everyone around them. Or it's not scary enough. I guess they are going to be really disappointing after episode 5 or 6. __________________ Fate/Zero: This was the tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and was driven to despair by them. Madoka: This was the tale of magical girls whose wishes are pure and by them are driven to despair.

2009-07-19, 07:03	Link #1259
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	A part of them certainly but I still hope the others will get to understand that this series is not Higurashi2, and appreciate it for what it is. __________________

2009-07-19, 07:23	Link #1260
sento Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009	I still don't understand why some people believe that Higurashi is about "killer lolis"... The shadow of Higurashi S1 is long indeed...