2009-11-01, 21:40
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Link #321 | |
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Thread Hijacker
Join Date: May 2009
Location: In a hole, I just need to dig myself out
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 How can Awakened Priscilla be more powerful then Awakened Teresa? Because she has the power to surpass her that's why, and she realized her full potential when she fully awakened. *sigh, Hedge, everyone's been telling you all day in the 97 thread, as well as Teresa and Irene. I can't believe you're being stubborn about this. I feel like we're hitting a dead horse going back to this again and again. I have no idea what this "magical enhancement" you're talking about whatsoever. |
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2009-11-01, 21:43
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Link #322 |
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Banned
Join Date: Sep 2009
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"she realized her full potential when she fully awakened." -shiek
ah hem, SO DOES TERESA !!!! pfft! and it is FACTUAL that 10% yoki teresa BEAT (MORE POWERFUL) 70-79% yoki priscilla... so clearly priscilla does NOT have the power to surpass teresa. Though, maybe priscilla can surpass teresa's swordsmanship skill as claymores !!! |
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2009-11-01, 22:18
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Link #323 |
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Miria's #1 Disciple
Join Date: Apr 2007
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There are several factors which interfere with this:
1) Teresa herself stated that Priscilla's potential frightened her. 2) Priscilla's power (even at 70-80%) wasn't at her true potential. The Databooks state that Priscilla had a mental fail-safe to prevent her from using all her Yoki as an instinctive defense, because she has so much of it, which leads us too.... 3) Priscilla; even after awakening, still was not utilizing her full power until her fight with Isley. After she was injured she unleashed her true power and obliterated half his body before he could even react. The Priscilla that is owning the parasite-infested Beth (Abyssal level) in her HUMAN form, this speaks volumes of Priscilla's true potential. I think it is FAR from certain that Priscilla's potential was less then Teresa's. It is quite possible that Teresa at her peak would be weaker then Priscilla; although she would still be far stronger then anyone else.
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2009-11-01, 22:20
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Link #324 | |
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Thread Hijacker
Join Date: May 2009
Location: In a hole, I just need to dig myself out
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Teresa never fully awakened. Nobody has ever realized their full potential other then Priscilla because of her unique ability. Your numbers mean absolutely nothing because, like I already said, Priscilla didn't bring out her full latent surpassing potential until after she fully awakened. The only way Teresa could ever soundly beat Priscilla was in the situation we saw, where Priscilla didn't have the potential brought out through either experience or awakening. In every other, it's equal or in Priscilla's favor. |
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2009-11-01, 22:50
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Link #325 |
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Banned
Join Date: Sep 2009
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meh, we RE-argued this debate, and RE-made our points, lol.
i'm sick of this discussion, i think I-we killed it. sides, i wrote a LOT, showing all the support i could for it and i'm not even sure if others even read all that work i put into it anyways. and, not a single other person put in any amount of support for their wild statements, so i've been quite a fool in it all. My hand and my brain is dead tired.... if i see teresa or priscilla mentioned anywhere... i think i'll throw up. very sick of this debate and even their names now. lol. |
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2009-11-02, 15:03
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Link #326 | |
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Angriest Angel
Join Date: Nov 2007
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@only to help Hege out a bit...
I think it is quite clear after that chapter that priscilla motivated and fully enegized could beat far more than 3 - 4 abyssal ones in a fight together. I would go even that far that AOs are nothing more to her as those ABs send by isley for riful. She said herself that they are only babies. I think theresa was superior to priscilla too, perhaps not in that ratio but she was. She said first "I may beat her now..." but at the end of the fight she was confident to beat her every time and she said that too. The reason for her first comment is IMO simply that she couldn't measure priscilla's yoki because she was suppressed. When she said the second comment, she could clearly measure it and the result was that she wasn't afraid or in doubt anymore. Gooral did a good job in showing that theresa was way faster than priscilla when they were both stealthed. And i for myself tried to show that this was not because she had more experienced or was better trained or in a better physical shape, because 1. she wasn't the type to train and 2. there were no opponents she could get strength because of battle experience. 3. if we look at priscilla`s character i am sure that she trained in her time at academy more than theresa trained her entier life. Priscilla was a fanatic and hated yoma so she probably trained a lot. When they were both suppressed and there was no "mental block" theresa still owned her and that was only because she moved faster not because of battle experience despite priscilla had the advantage of her suppression, which was something theresa wasn't used to fight, so even a slight experience bonus would have gone to waste because of the fact that theresa had to fight her "blind" without her sensing abilities. Again, making basic, already mastered, movements faster has nothing to do with battle experience. Bolt is not more experienced and therefore faster than other elite runners. You can see running as a kind of making basic movements. Bold makes the same basic movements but only faster. Quote:
The org was mistaken about theresa's power too and irene said herself that she underestimated her. But theresa not only fooled the org and irene but you guys too, i think 
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2009-11-03, 02:54
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Link #328 | |
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Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The town where Copernicus was born.
Age: 38
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Quote:
I have no idea how did they come up to that conclusion but it was ridiculous. Rubel showed it a while later when he answered Clare's question. He said: "we'd weigh the organization's strength against Priscilla's power and let the chief decide". At that time, when he said that, they didn't even complete Alicia, yet he told Clare they would "weigh the org's strength". If he knew Priscilla's strength they wouldn't even bother to consider defeating her. They would need at least two abyssals for that and they didn't even have one. Which leads us to - they knew shit. On the other hand we have plenty of evidences that show Teresa was stronger and faster than Priscilla (which I had been trying to prove ever since I've joined animesuki and was the first one to come up with most arguments that indicate Teresa's superiority over Priscilla. I'm being modest, I know ;]). There is also the thing of Teresa's immeasurable power. She couldn't suppress her aura completely (which could be interpreted as: she had so much youki she couldn't completely erase her presence unlike Priscilla) but at the same time it was only an outer layer of her power and sensing it would give absolutely nothing. Irene was completely shocked when she sensed Teresa at 10% release. We have absolutely no idea how strong she would be if she awakened but judging by how easily she had defeated Priscilla at over 70% it would be humongous and her awakening catastrophic. The stupidest thing Priscilla's apologists are doing is disregarding the fact that Teresa was only at 10%-29% youki release. On what base do you think she wouldn't be given great increase in power after she awakened? Because using "just enough youki for her eye colour to change" (which would suggest it was more like 10% than 29%) she defeated Priscilla with ease and what if she used 50% of her youki? That's a huuuge gap, from 10%-50% (especially if we assume that the power increases exponentially) and Priscilla could only have one increase, from 80%-100% and that would be the end. No room for improvement. Besides, stating that from 80%-100% there is a huge gap is jumping to conclusions. We've never seen anyone besides Priscilla who fought at this threshold. Thus saying that after awakening one's powers greatly increase compared to before they awakened is baseless. If someone could use 80% of youki all the time it would help him greatly and made him really strong without the need to awaken. As we could see in 95th chapter it was so. Deneve's youki was constantly increasing almost to the limit even during normal times which allowed her to defeat many AB without awakening. I really doubt she could have done it 7 years earlier. It looks like I was right and it doesn't matter when you awaken, you would be at maximum strength regardless of what you did. But partial awakening allows you to access to this immense strength without awakening. And to bite it from the other side, have we ever seen any awakened being that used "all youki" (and I mean ALL here)? If she did that she would go back to her human form and THAT SHE DID after "defeating" Isley. P.S. It looks like even though I've lost my interest in Claymore recently (because of awesomness of Kemono no Souja Erin and Gintama and because of quality drop story-wise) I'm still Teresa's lover :]. |
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2009-11-03, 18:27
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Link #329 |
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the toeto nomster~!!
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: here there and everywhere!
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my take on this 'teresa vs. priscilla' is... if prissy had more claymore years experience under her belt like teresa, she would've gone toe to toe with her. she was very young and inexperience as a claymore but her potential as quite astounding.
if they fought then, veteran claymore prissy might've only used 10 or 20 percent of her yoki to fight teresa. |
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2009-11-04, 07:03
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Link #330 |
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Angriest Angel
Join Date: Nov 2007
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The experience argument is IMO something we really can not consider.
Had Theresa experience in fighting stealthy opponents? Theresa did not train much, that is very certain if we look how she behaved all the time, she had really NO adversaries she could gain experience from because like priscilla said, even the strongest were nothing to theresa and her like mere babies. Look what she did to rosemarie. No, yagi IMO clearly showed in the fight against priscilla that theresa countered brute force with more brute force, brute speed with more brute speed. Look at goorals posts in "statistics and powerlevels". Again, theresa did not fight more skillful than priscilla with a better technique. It was a one on one fight and theresa couldn't use any tactics against priscilla. She made the same basic swordsmovements as priscilla, the only difference is that she made them faster. Priscilla said that herself. you can not make already mastered and trained basic movements faster because of experience. Only hard and longlasting training can achieve something like that. So if you think that priscilla would have gotten stronger because she wasn't a women yet and not physically fully developed this is a valid point but IMO experience is a really cheap argument. And i don't think that priscilla was a problem child like theresa. Priscilla was probably an apt pupil obsessed with training and her hate for yoma. So she probably trained more during academy than theresa in her entire life and with her stealth she had the advantage of experience on her side in this fight in which all normal laws suddenly doesn't seem to count and theresa lost her yoki sensing and had to fight blind. So theresa was confronted with an entirely new situation as well. The only thing which saves your day here is that theresa said something as: In time she will become incredibly strong ... but everything else what happened in the entire manga speaks another language.
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2009-11-04, 07:52
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Link #331 |
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Banned
Join Date: Sep 2009
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irvine,
this is what was going on with the "experience" : Teresa is a veteran or seasoned warrior. Her combat is flawless-perfect. Priscilla is much more new to combat, she's still a rookie, compared to the others who've been fighting longer and getting-having more experience. Teresa=professional warrior=more experience in combat Priscilla=amature warrior=less experience in combat Teresa was both more powerful and more experienced then Priscilla, this is why Teresa won so easily when they fought each other as claymores. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Priscilla had to release her yoki to stand chance, however this was the very thing that wasn't suppose to happen (and why the Organization selected Priscilla in the first place), because Teresa does even better against those who use-release yoki due to Teresa's ability to read the internal flows of yoki from the brain to the body (allowing her to know the opponent's move or attack before the opponent is able to move or attack). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Irene says that at the individual skills Teresa isn't as good as Irene, Sophia, and Noel, but this is where I think Irene is again dead wrong. Teresa easily matches Irene's quick sword technique's sword movement speed. Even commenting to irene, "Well, your quick sword has improved, but it's still not enough". Teresa matches and bests the others at their own skills as well. Maybe this is just because of Teresa's power or she is using her ability to read the internal yoki flows. Who knows... Though, Irene has been wrong numerous times. So Teresa could very well be superior to them in the individual skills as well as in the "total package" of combat ability. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Teresa does "train", as she is constantly killing yoma. Though in terms of being challenged and pushed, obviously NO, as she has no one who even comes close to her power. We have no idea if Teresa trains on her own or not (if-when she ever gets a chance to be alone, since she doesn't want the Organization to know of her actual power). ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We do know, that Rosemary finally provided Teresa with an opportunity to "let loose" (use 10% of her yoki, lol), as the Organization did not know that former rank 1 Rosemary had awakened into an abyssal one, and was not watching their (Teresa vs Rosemary) battle. Teresa didn't let it go to waste and "had fun" with Rosemary, commenting that, "She-Teresa is rusty, since she-Teresa almost never gets a chance to release her yoki". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ It is completely unknown if Teresa has sword techniques and/or abilities (besides the already known ones) or not. Obviously, we never see her using a sword technique or ability (besides the already known ones). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- pure speculation on my part, though i do include a suggestive source from the manga as support : Personally, I feel Teresa is a Half Awaken, due to the way she talks to Priscilla about the yoki levels, it sounds as though Teresa has awakened and de-awakened (becoming a Half Awaken), whereas a "rookie" like Priscilla would just awaken (just as she actually did, being unable to de-awaken and not becoming a Half Awaken, lol). Also, being a Half Awaken would help explain Teresa's supreme power. Look at how power Half Awaken Miria (rank 6) and Clare ("rank 47") are. Now imagine a rank 1 Half Awaken (Teresa). See, how it explains Teresa's power, so well ! hehe. |
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2009-11-04, 13:27
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Link #332 | |
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the toeto nomster~!!
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: here there and everywhere!
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Quote:
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2009-11-04, 15:45
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Link #333 | ||
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Angriest Angel
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Quote:
You can only gain experience when you get an appropriate stimulus. If the stimulus is too strong it kills you, if it is to weak you gain nothing from it. That is a law of nature and i base my argumentation on this. Another thing i can not prove and assume is that theresa didn't train because she simply wasn't that type of character and was probably with 10 years already the strongest by far. Think about it this way: 1. Against what fought teresa? Right, against rosemary and yoma. That was shown in the manga. We can be quite sure that there were no opponents who were stronger than rosemary, who was squashed like a fly by theresa. Hell we did not even know if theresa played around with her the whole time. An indication for that is when she twisted her arm off without releasing any yoki at all. So she perhaps could have beaten rosemary without yoki release. She could gain no experience from that. Even ophelia refused to fight yoma. 2. Theresa had her preemptive aura protection! Clare who had only one/tenth of irene's strength, could nearly beat an above average AB at paburo mountains with an imperfect preemptive aura protection without releasing yoki. So this technique is highly effective against AB's. When teresa used this technique probably even single digit abs would have not been able to even scratch her and would have been decapitated with a single strike from her sword. =>No experience gained except a perfection of the useless against priscilla p.e.p. 3. Against stronger single digit number 2 - 5,IF she even fought those, She would have been comrades as well. 4. Theresa wasn't the type of soldier who trained like naruto or rocky balboa in the woods. At least i can not imagine it. She said herself, that she was already the strongest by far. There was no need for her to train like the ghosts did in those seven years. 4.1. She was a prodigy who was perhaps even able to detect a warrior who was perhaps suppressed like the ghosts - rafaella. It is IMO one of the hidden hints yagi gave that theresa was the strongest by far and excelling on all counts. IMO she probably not even had to train her p.e.p. if she could detect rafaella as a child. 5. In this fight against priscilla, even if it sounds strange, the older and more battle experienced warrior was at the disadvantage experience wise because she had to fight a suppressed priscilla, which was probably even as a claymore stronger than rosemary as an awakened and first emitted no yoki and second emitted to much yoki. So theresa's technique was out of the game. Priscilla instead should have no difficulties fighting the yoki emitting theresa and could fight her as always without any shortcoming. I think alone the fact that she couldn't effectively use her technique compensates more than enough for all the experience she could have gained from being lazy and fighting small fry in those years. Really, someone who let herself rape by a bandit isn't the power hungry type who trains on and on. Before she met clare she was cold blooded and there weren't many things she really cared for at all. 6. Priscilla was a fanatic, theresa a problem child. IMO priscilla trained hard has hell during academy time but theresa probably jumped like a smart horse only as high as she had too Quote:
. But we can say that she probably killed only 20 per weak. The right stimulus is clearly missing here. If she trained alone in the woods? The only way for her to become stronger - BUT really someone who doesn't care if a bandit rapes her or not and seems to have no ambitiones at all and believes that she was already the strongest by far does not seem to me like the type who trains alone to become even stronger. 1. There was no need for her to train, evn as a child her sensing was probably as good as blind galatea's. 2. It would contradict her character. We can not say that she didn't train. Perhaps she trained every time she was alone. But i find it hard to believe.
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Last edited by irvinethearcher; 2009-11-05 at 06:57. |
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2009-11-04, 16:19
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Link #334 |
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Awe of She
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Orlando
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Wow, still talking about this so many months later...lol
One thing about releasing one's 'true' potential - Imagine a dam. If someone wanted to release the 'full power' of the dam, one would open up all the water gates and let the water rush through. Pretty soon, all that water might overload the power systems of the dam if left open for too long. But to really release the full power of the dam, you need to break the dam... Now if one could apply the dam connection to Priscilla's mental block...
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2009-11-04, 16:48
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Link #335 |
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Angriest Angel
Join Date: Nov 2007
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the mental block was of not important in that fight at the beginning because theresa owned her in mere speed when they both fought without yoki release. Remember, priscilla said that she slowed down but then she corrected herself and said that theresa simply moved faster.
This can not achieved by mere experience because in this fight they made only basic movements which were already mastered by both after they left the academy. And theresa owned her even without her p.e.p. in an entirely new situation in which nothing she had experienced in her claymore live could have of any use to her. She NEVER EVER fought a stealthy opponent with so much power as priscilla. So experience wise she was IMO clearly at the disadvantage. Irene said too, that she would have an especially hard time fighting priscillla stealthed.
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2009-11-05, 03:28
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Link #336 |
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soar high
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Washington State
Age: 41
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Oi oi, it became more confusing now. Let's just leave the experiences and mental capabilities or other stealth ability and talents for a sec. I am sure every warrior went through rough training all their childhood. Anyway: On how to test their strength or youki, I'll leave it up to the org to measure.
What I don't get is, if Priscilla has the ability to surpass Teresa someday. Wouldn't the org just slated her to be the next number 1? Instead she was given number 2. And Irene was pushed to number 3. Experienced or not, the warriors are numbered based on Strength is it not? Now, Teresa deserted the org. Priscilla should just claim the title number 1. I'm sure Teresa doesn't mind. But the org still kept her at number 2. Oh, don't say she was not informed yet. And yeah, Miata was also somewhat like Priscilla, mentally unstable. Yet the org recognizes her as number 1 potential. Now then, moving on to Rosemary. She was number 1.. until Teresa arrived. She was demoted to number 2. Based on Experiences, Rosemary should be older and stronger and more experienced than Teresa during their fight right? Was that chapter belittling Rosemary? I thought it shows what a monster Teresa is. I still think Teresa's the strongest, even if Priscilla realizes her full potential. Ah.. by the way, When Irene said that she saw Priscilla in action she knows that Priscilla has the potential to surpass Teresa someday. Wasn't that info void. She said it herself, she underestimated Teresa, again. |
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2009-11-05, 10:51
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Link #337 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Cracow
Age: 46
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I decided to sum up arguments of those, who believe Priscilla was stronger and counterarguments of those, who believe that Theresa was the most powerful Claymore ever.
Priscilla: Organization believed that Priscilla may surpass Theresa one day. Theresa: Org didn't knew Theresa true strength, she was always hiding her youki and abilities. P: Theresa and Irene said that Priscilla will be stronger. T: Both of them said that before P and T released their yokis. After release both Theresa and Irene was quite sure that Theresa is much stronger. P: Priscilla lose her fight with Theresa because of lack of experience. T: Indeed Theresa overall experience was greater, but her experience with fights against strong opponents was close to zero - before her last fight only Rosemary (an AO level creature) forced her to release yoki. Also Theresa was fighting without her strongest ability - yoki sensing (at first Priscilla yoki was suppressed, then overflowing). P: Priscilla crushed in her human form awakened Beth. T: Theresa crushed Rosemary when she still was still a "human". P: In time Priscilla might grow stronger and surpass Theresa. T: Theresa also had that possibility. Theoretically even Yuma could grew stronger and surpass every other warrior. P: Priscilla wasn't fighting with her full power cause of "mental block". T: Databooks represents what Org believe to be true, not what really is true. Also if that mental block really existed, Priscilla should break it when she was going over her limit. IMHO best chance for Priscilla supporters is mentioned mental block. I've no idea what it was. All other arguments shows that Theresa was stronger, or that both of them was way above any other creature on Island.
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2009-11-05, 13:44
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Link #338 | |
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Angriest Angel
Join Date: Nov 2007
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About the "mental block":
here is the databook translated: http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/5...se01014ue5.jpg The link is a bit slow so i will type the important part here: Quote:
In the fight against isley she released her block when she began to talk about her papa, saying things that papa was so kind... She did that too in her fight against theresa so i personally think that she went all out after that. At the moment she awakened she released all her yoki that is cetain. Pro priscilla people can still argue that she suddenly short before awakening released the block and began to suppress after the awakening again. @arturro - great post IMO there is one thing missing. Priscilla was not a full grown woman yet, so perhaps this could have some influence on her yoki pool, base strength and base speed as well. But we know that women can be very good at sports like swimming, tennis or athletics even when they are very young(15-16)
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Last edited by irvinethearcher; 2009-11-05 at 15:59. |
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2009-11-05, 16:06
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Link #339 | |
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Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The town where Copernicus was born.
Age: 38
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Quote:
In addition, Teresa was impressive from the start. Just like Miata she could wonder around forest where awakened beings and youma roamed, with ease. She immediately "stole" #1 position, so tell me, when did she have time to awaken? And most importantly, Abyssal One (or awakened #2 at least, although knowing MiB who didn't assign #1 position to anyone, she was rather fitting for her position) commented on her aura as being "crazy" and called her a monster. Let me remind you that by partial awakening one doesn't seem stronger, his youki pool doesn't change. Rigaldo/Riguald wasn't impressed by the strength of Miria or other partially awakened claymores and could squash them with ease. The same goes for Helen and Deneve when they released youki in front of Isley (Deneve was after at least 3rd half-awakening so she should be even stronger than in Pieta) nonetheless Isley was still more concerned about AE than them. He didn't even notice them. Teresa however had humongous amounts of youki and it had nothing to do with half-awakening. @irvinethearcher The link you've provided and the conclusion you came up to seem strangely similar to the ones I've written ;P. |
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2009-11-05, 17:43
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Link #340 |
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Banned
Join Date: Sep 2009
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gooral,
" Teresa: "Give up. As things are right now, you cannot defeat me no matter how many times you try. You better not go past that level. If a rookie like you releases too much Yoma power, you won't be able to change back. When we half human, half yoma release 10% of our yoma powers, our eyes change colors. At 30%, our face distort. At 50%, our bodies distort. And when you go over 80%, you won't be able to turn back. You're already past 70%". " -anime episode 8, (pretty much the same dialogue as the manga). *This hints at that Teresa has gone over 80% yoki, awakened, and reverted back with ease (able to at will), where many "rookies" have done so and been unable to revert back. This is obviously way before Miria, Helen, Deneve, Clare, and Undine have discovered (by having done so) that you can go over the limit (80% yoki), begin to awaken, and revert back. *Teresa is keeping lots of secrets to herself.... like knowing about being able to go over the limit, awaken and revert back, at will, and having done so and her true power. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ whether teresa is a Half Awaken or not, isn't clear either way. as you already know (and i have shown with this post), I personally feel Teresa is a Half Awaken. though, it is just as possible if Teresa isn't a Half Awaken, and so your view is just as valid. we have two different views on it. |
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"Focus entirely on me, you ordinary soldier."
