[MANGA] Bleach Chapter 391 Discussion

[JustRob]

Well, that's more or less one of Aizen's strengths too, provoking the enemy. He did that this time again very well with Toushirou. The previous times too. Also in Pendulum when he provoked Shinji in order to force his Hollowfication to progress.

Aizen knows how to diss people and it makes them angry. It's just that some people learn from their mistakes (Shinji) and other people (Toushirou) don't.

Aizen hasn't shown anything yet, and they know it (expect for Toushirou). That's why they're holding back some of their moves until Aizen shows something.

[Marcus H.]

By the way, shouldn't this topic be stickied already by now?

[Bassoonicmayhem]

Originally Posted by Farscape

That is a really bad deduction, no offence. So you're saying just because he can't pull an aizen with what he has, that isn't his main attribute? So anyone who is weak (like he is) can pull an Aizen it just depends on what he does best.. don't know how else to reframe it atm. So we just need to wait and find out what he can do better and is of more value then controlling his overlarged excessive force production of a bankai.

No, you’ve completely misinterpreted the information I gave you. It’s the exact opposite. I’m saying he can’t pull an ‘Aizen.’ There a ton of characters that can’t overwhelm their opponents solely with their spiritual power. Uryu, Soi Fon, Toshiro, all of those characters have some strength to them but their spiritual power isn’t that high. The same can be said for Komamura. Just because they can’t pull ‘Aizens’ and ‘Kenpachis’ doesn’t mean they’re ultimately too weak to even notice. That’s just being arrogant. And also, bankai' take years to master, even though it seems that rule doesn't apply to some characters *cough* Ichigo *cough*, other characters are bound by that rule.

How can you not deduce that he is simply lacking power. He hasn't done anything different in any of his fights he goes Bankai to crush people with his huge bankai which is pure brute force? do you see any poisonous gas coming from it or someone being blinded when it touches you no.. or w/e lol

It just an enlarged movement of himself so there is nothing else to deduce from that thats it's a giant blocking/attacking machine that destroys things with alot of force. Even Aizen said it, when he Aizend him lol.

And I said before, Komamura’s power might not all be brute force, I specifically said that I was speculating, since Komamura has only been in fights where he is the underdog, no pun intended. I just think there is more to a character like him and we might not find out until the next arc or even ever. Until then, Komamura's bankai is just his movements enlarged while he is bonded to his bankai. When his bankai gets hurt, he gets hurt. So yeah, I agree with you on that aspect.

But it is because when Ichigo went full power it took him one blow to finish the job.. that showed the difference in power.. (this is not a comparison to someone getting Aizend thats a whole other lvl obviously)
However it is a good comparison to what Komamura did because he went full power and didn't finish the job in one blow even going full force i mean. Can we spell Weak? Doesn't matter tho..

Except Komamura just went full strength without getting his ass kicked. Who cares if he had to swing the sword twice? Ichigo made the same mistake the Ikkaku made and thus shows Ichigo’s pride and slight novice/naivety when it comes to fighting or at least back then (but he could have gone hollow and attack Aizen but chose not to, thinking he was powerful enough without it.)

No because Ulquirroa could've decided Ichigo's faith alot sooner by just shooting a black cero at him yet he started to parade and talk about how much stronger he is than Ichigo he wanted to show him how chanceless and pointless Ichigo's mission was.. that was just his charachter, his death aspect Nihilism.

Someone who fights serious doesn't talk alot or at least doesn't parade about what he can do.. he just does it and be done with it.

Well Ulquiorra himself, didn’t imagine that Ichigo would improve as he did, so yes, Ulquiorra did give him a sort of ‘saving grace’ but when Ichigo proved himself to be ‘bothersome trash’ Ulquiorra dealt with the problem. And Ulquiorra is basically the Prince of Exposition, Aizen being the King. Someone has to tell the story, reinforce the same stupid crap over and over again, and Ulquiorra got that job. He did it without much emotion (until further into the manga; their final battle together) and was able to be a force that influenced Ichigo enough to go bat shit crazy (though you can't forget all of those 'KUROSAKI-KUN's in the back ground either. ) And at that point of the battle (which you are referencing), Ulquiorra was truly questioning Ichigo's motives, it really wasn't useless banter, but honest to god questions.

That's so fun isn't it, it's all speculative.. and what the hell can Gin possibly know.. i mean i don't see Unohane, Shinji or Shinshui going all out.. is see them having fun laughing/chilling around only one going beserk is Hitsugaya.. even the angry girl Soi Fon has her laughs but only logic assumption i could make is that going all out could form some sort of danger because of Kyōka Suigetsu..

I don't even believe Aizen is that strong, i mean don't get me wrong he is strong but i don't believe he is 5-1 strong they are only doing that because of what he can do with his slayer.. 1on1 would be suicide. Shinji put a scratch on him 1on1 so they are just feeling eachother out atm.. the big boys at least..

Gin, in my opinion, doesn’t need to do anything right now. The point that Kubo is trying to make is that Aizen is a force of nature and he doesn’t need help when fighting a bunch of captains (though it looks like he’s in a bit of a pickle right now [~ILLUSION~]) All the captains are more worried about Aizen than anyone else. And Soi Fon wasn’t laughing in the 'haha sense', but trying to show Aizen that he didn’t scare her. I don’t really see anyone just sitting around laughing (except maybe Captain Old Guy and Gin.) I see them waiting for the right time to attack because Aizen is a force of nature.

What? I said that the CAPTAINS and SHINJI were fighting against Aizen 5-to-1, meaning four captains + one vizard against one Aizen… Not that Aizen has the strength of four captains and a vizard or that the four captains and vizard he fought have the strength of one shinigami (or at least right now Aizen hasn't even gone shikai.) That makes no sense! It’s an ILLUSION! Aizen is sitting on a building right now, sipping tea, giggling to himself, saying “Just as planned!”

[Nesty]

Loved the ownage but I can't wait to see all of their "WTF" faces when Aizen's still alive and starts beating the snot out of em. Ichigo, I think it's ur turn now lol

[CuXe]

Even tho Aizen got stabbed I can't help but think that a major PWNGE will be delivered by Aizen in the next few chapters, and he HAS TO cause after all... this is Bleach.


I am starting to believe the manga might be a lil bit better than the anime series at this point....
</sarcasm>

[Mr. DJ]

Aizen's thought at the 17 second mark.

[Kafriel]

I don't even believe Aizen is that strong, i mean don't get me wrong he is strong but i don't believe he is 5-1 strong they are only doing that because of what he can do with his slayer.. 1on1 would be suicide.

This got me thinking, has bleach set a standard for this? I mean, there's the case of one insanely strong guy who can only die at the hands of an equally strong guy (see Goku) and the case where he can lose to a bunch of elite guys who are weaker than him (see Sephiroth). The only thing I can remember in bleach is Ichigo beating 3 VCs, but that was just for show.

[Mr. DJ]

I don't think they've set the standard for it outside of Hichigo being subdued by all the Vaizards before he could kill Hiyori.

I think the vast majority of fights have been 1v1s o_O

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Farscape

That can be interpreted multiple ways and it says as weak not weaker beside that, it's the same for the 'i wonder why' part.. why refer it to weakness, why not to of more use.. because obviously all the useless characters got squased like bugs, as for Hitsugaya he was of more use then Komamura, he teamed up with Shinshui and probably Soi Fon.

I think you'll find that if you replace "weak" and "strong" with "More useful" and "useless" in my argument, my point will still stand...

Zaraki and Komamura never actually fought? so what do you call someone attacking you with one of his special abilities and then getting slammed to the ground?

Not fighting?

He was in Shikai. Geez you know how messed up the power levels are in this manga. And you aswell that they only ever actually come down to the final blow and nothing else. So how you can extrapolate that to anything else is beyond me. Evaluate your extrapolation man. It's weak and speculative at best.

[Sauzer]

next chapter we find out that Gin was the actual mastermind all along

[Rheehemoth]

With this whole captain's strength talk, honestly I do believe that it goes both ways. No captain is 'weak' as such. Why would they be a captain if they were? But in some ways Haak is right since most of the more popular captains are stronger than others, ie Hitsugaya & Byakuya.

Then again, I think that the stronger captains became more popular because they were stronger.

But that's just my opinion...I'm too indecisive/neutral to sit on either side of the proverbial 'fence'....

[Kafriel]

If you think about it the turning point was SS: during that time, Ichigo could have been up against anyone, and all captains were of equal footing; just as menacing as anyone else, with the exception of Zaraki, who was hyped before his battle.

[Pyrokinetic]

yh yh Aizen is not dead, this is all part of his plan, i have gotten used to the idea that he is godlike and i am pretty sure none of the captains and espada's there can hurt him, even if they all go at once. gin would have interfered if he knew aizen might get hurt which is very unlikely. i am more concerned about the fight with Kensei and wonderweiss, HAVE THEY FORGOTTEN ABOUT IT? i want to see what his bankai can do . Aizen will be taken down by ichigo in the end and its too early in the story for him to be taken down now. still has kubo forgotten about frigging KENSEI!

[Kafriel]

Kubo's trolling party:
1) Switch to Yamzilla!
2) Switch to WW!
3) Start a totally irrelevant Ulquiorra reborn in SS arc!
4) Kill Aizen, the most poweful troll of them all...no flashbacks or explanations though.

[Rheehemoth]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Kubo's trolling party:
1) Switch to Yamzilla!
2) Switch to WW!

I really would like to know how those fights end.

[Kafriel]

But NOW, of all times? :O

[sonotme_9FedriqSama]

Alteast I get to see that Aizen is not invincible....he was speaking about Riaetsu being important in shinigami battle...Ichigo still doesn't know how to use his yet...which mean the battle is far from over...I liked this chapter...looking forward to next chapter

[Rheehemoth]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

But NOW, of all times? :O

Yeah, that's true I guess
Wouldn't suprise me if Kubo decided to switch to either of those fights right now.

[Farscape]

Originally Posted by Haak

I think you'll find that if you replace "weak" and "strong" with "More useful" and "useless" in my argument, my point will still stand...



He was in Shikai. Geez you know how messed up the power levels are in this manga. And you aswell that they only ever actually come down to the final blow and nothing else. So how you can extrapolate that to anything else is beyond me. Evaluate your extrapolation man. It's weak and speculative at best.

Nope not really because it obviously depends on the given situation. For example now, they aren't in need of a Giant slow blocking machine(it's completley useless) but if they were it would've been of more use then Hitsugaya's icecapade.. get it? doesn't neccassarily mean weakness just more efficient.

You need to stop reading between the lines because it's very simple.. even though the fight didn't continue at full power.. it's still an event with highlights that were pretty much decisive.. They are both of a type to use excessive force to overcome their opponent and when your shikai has 0 effect on your oponent and when you get slammed to the ground like its nothing.. i think that pretty much says it all..

In almost any even out battle or someone being a little stronger attacks can do damage but when the gab is so big.. attacks do nothing eg: Tousen vs Zaraki, Renji vs Byakyua, Ichigo vs Grimmjow (don't even mention the scar that was nothing) They clearly state the obvious in the end, no (equal or w/e) final blow needed.

You can go bankai then.. and get ur paws chopped off like in future evens(Yammy) not a valid argument to use perhaps but it clearly says it all. It woudn't have changed a thing.

Nonetheless is doesn't even matter.I said they fought and they did, he got spanked, i didn't say Komamaru lost the fight (or that it was an all out battle) even though obvious assumptions can be made in what would've happend.

Originally Posted by Bassoonicmayhem

No, you’ve completely misinterpreted the information I gave you. It’s the exact opposite. I’m saying he can’t pull an ‘Aizen.’ There a ton of characters that can’t overwhelm their opponents solely with their spiritual power. Uryu, Soi Fon, Toshiro, all of those characters have some strength to them but their spiritual power isn’t that high. The same can be said for Komamura. Just because they can’t pull ‘Aizens’ and ‘Kenpachis’ doesn’t mean they’re ultimately too weak to even notice. That’s just being arrogant. And also, bankai' take years to master, even though it seems that rule doesn't apply to some characters *cough* Ichigo *cough*, other characters are bound by that rule.

You are right so that means my earlier statements are granted, i mean i think and i said they are all weak, right? :P

Let me explain something.. When you start a fight? what will you do to try and defeat your opponent knowing alot about them. Because from notibale events we can clearly assume that Komamru isn't only weak but stupid aswell. His role was just to sacrifice himself for the cause lol.

I mean Soi Fon might not be the strongest but she's diffinitley not stupid hence why she used an ability that suited the situation. what did Komamuru do? He just went head on against an opponent he knows is way stronger in everything he can, i mean more power/bigger reatsu and then to make it even more easy for him he goes and try to attack him with an overlarged slow bankai that doesnt even measure up to the force his opponent has? i mean is that smart?

It just clearly shows that he doesn't have anything to offer to the table.. Thats just what makes him even worse he doesn't have anything else to offer no speed, no kidou, not shunko, no special abilities only thing that can be concluded is what..

Even though i believe Soi Fon is weak aswell(it's a personal opinion so who else cares altough Komamura being weak is a fact :P), she is a tough fighter with alot of cool stuff. she at least has something to offer.

Uryu? comon he's usually just in the way and Toushirou well can't argue with that but he's young i guess.

Originally Posted by Bassoonicmayhem

Gin, in my opinion, doesn’t need to do anything right now. The point that Kubo is trying to make is that Aizen is a force of nature and he doesn’t need help when fighting a bunch of captains (though it looks like he’s in a bit of a pickle right now [~ILLUSION~]) All the captains are more worried about Aizen than anyone else. And Soi Fon wasn’t laughing in the 'haha sense', but trying to show Aizen that he didn’t scare her. I don’t really see anyone just sitting around laughing (except maybe Captain Old Guy and Gin.) I see them waiting for the right time to attack because Aizen is a force of nature.

What? I said that the CAPTAINS and SHINJI were fighting against Aizen 5-to-1, meaning four captains + one vizard against one Aizen… Not that Aizen has the strength of four captains and a vizard or that the four captains and vizard he fought have the strength of one shinigami (or at least right now Aizen hasn't even gone shikai.) That makes no sense! It’s an ILLUSION! Aizen is sitting on a building right now, sipping tea, giggling to himself, saying “Just as planned!”

Well you might not have meant that.. but spectator Gin probably is, if not clearly trying to imply that.

[Langus]

I'm 100% prepared to be thoroughly annoyed/disappointed with the next chapter. A cliffhanger just doesn't work when your audience already expects the outcome to suck.