Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by GDB

That's what I figured as well, considering he doesn't have Avalon in him anymore.

Is that actually known? I thought that he did have Avalon, actually.

Plus Archer's story said he once had a lover who was taken from his world, didn't it? Or at least, something along those lines.

He had a lover, yes (the identity is unknown, but it's probably not Rin or Sakura). I don't think she died, though, I think he just drifted away from her because he was fighting so much.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Is that actually known? I thought that he did have Avalon, actually.

When he's fighting Shirou, and notices Shirou's abnormal rate of recovery he remarks something like "You still have the sheath!?"

To me, that implies that Archer no longer does, since he's genuinely shocked that Shirou still does.

He had a lover, yes (the identity is unknown, but it's probably not Rin or Sakura). I don't think she died, though, I think he just drifted away from her because he was fighting so much.

Well, it does use intentionally ambiguous wording like "left his world", which would mean either death, leaving him due to his fighting, or if it is Saber, returning to her own time.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by GDB

When he's fighting Shirou, and notices Shirou's abnormal rate of recovery he remarks something like "You still have the sheath!?"

Well, UBW is the route where my knowledge is weakest, because I rushed through it somewhat and, unlike HF, I never went back and replayed most of it (although, I really do need to replay the whole of FSN at some point). So, I'll have to take your word on that, because I can't remember now.

To me, that implies that Archer no longer does, since he's genuinely shocked that Shirou still does.

The thing is, even if Archer had removed it in his time, there's no reason for him to have suspected that Shirou would have, since Archer's war went totally differently from how Shirou's war went in UBW (I think that that's one thing we can say with absolute certainty). He would know that Shirou had it at the start of the war, and thus he has no reason not to expect him to have it then, since the event that caused Archer to remove it has probably not happened.

Well, it does use intentionally ambiguous wording like "left his world", which would mean either death, leaving him due to his fighting, or if it is Saber, returning to her own time.

Well, I think it's unlikely to be Saber, since then he basically would be Fate Shirou, plus I believe that the love interest came later. But, yeah, it could be that they were killed, or it could be that they left him because he ignored them.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Well, I think it's unlikely to be Saber, since then he basically would be Fate Shirou, plus I believe that the love interest came later. But, yeah, it could be that they were killed, or it could be that they left him because he ignored them.

Well, on this one I'm slightly influenced by the final Tiger Dojo, where Ilya and Fuji-nee talk about how the Fate Shirou has a strong chance of becoming Archer.

[Cherry_Lover]

The thing is "a chance to become Archer" /= "has the same backstory as Archer", since UBW Shirou is also said to have such a chance, IIRC (and, by the "final Tiger Dojo", do you mean the thing with Ilya and Taiga in the hot spring?).

If Archer had the same backstory as Fate Shirou, then he would essentially be Archer, in some timeline. IMO, Archer probably came from a timeline where Rin summoned a different servant (because it's not a stable time loop, since there's more than one possibility).

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

(and, by the "final Tiger Dojo", do you mean the thing with Ilya and Taiga in the hot spring?)

That's the one.

If Archer had the same backstory as Fate Shirou, then he would essentially be Archer, in some timeline. IMO, Archer probably came from a timeline where Rin summoned a different servant (because it's not a stable time loop, since there's more than one possibility).

But they explained that time has no bearing on a servant's ability to be summoned, since they're removed from the stream of time. Using this theory, the only possible reality where Rin wouldn't summon Archer was one where she didn't have her Father's pendant. But that would also mean that she couldn't save Shirou's life with it, meaning he wouldn't become the Archer we know since that pendant was important enough to him to be a catalyst of his summoning.

So the only chance for that is if Rin was there but never became a master, and saved his life with the pendant at some other point in time. However, why would she not join the battle yet Shirou would?

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by GDB

But they explained that time has no bearing on a servant's ability to be summoned, since they're removed from the stream of time. Using this theory, the only possible reality where Rin wouldn't summon Archer was one where she didn't have her Father's pendant. But that would also mean that she couldn't save Shirou's life with it, meaning he wouldn't become the Archer we know since that pendant was important enough to him to be a catalyst of his summoning.

The problem with your argument is that it's paradoxical. How did Archer come into existence in the first place? There are only two options. Either it's a stable time loop, or Archer came from a universe where Rin summoned someone else. It can't be the first, since the loop isn't stable, so it must be the second.

The problem is that Archer's actions affect Shirou, and thus change the timeline. Suppose that Archer were summoned by Rin into his own timeline. Then, his actions would change his own past (and, as I said, it's not a stable time loop, because there are multiple histories), which is a contradiction.

So the only chance for that is if Rin was there but never became a master, and saved his life with the pendant at some other point in time. However, why would she not join the battle yet Shirou would?

Or, for whatever reason, the pendant didn't cause Archer to be summoned. Or she wasn't holding onto it when she did the summoning. Or any one of about 20 other reasons.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

The problem with your argument is that it's paradoxical. How did Archer come into existence in the first place? There are only two options. Either it's a stable time loop, or Archer came from a universe where Rin summoned someone else. It can't be the first, since the loop isn't stable, so it must be the second.

The problem is that Archer's actions affect Shirou, and thus change the timeline. Suppose that Archer were summoned by Rin into his own timeline. Then, his actions would change his own past (and, as I said, it's not a stable time loop, because there are multiple histories), which is a contradiction.

That's the beauty of Archer's amnesia. He doesn't actually affect anything. No one knows that Archer = Shirou in the Fate route. For all we know, Archer being summoned by Rin is part of a predestined timeline that takes place no matter what.

Or, for whatever reason, the pendant didn't cause Archer to be summoned. Or she wasn't holding onto it when she did the summoning. Or any one of about 20 other reasons.

If she had the pendant on her, Archer would be summoned. This is evident by the fact that the mana deficient Shirou summoned Saber just by having her sheath. And her not holding the pendant makes no sense, given her character.

Honestly, we could make up any scenario to fit, but doing so while following the confines of the story that's already been presented is the only way to actually make sense of it.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by GDB

That's the beauty of Archer's amnesia. He doesn't actually affect anything. No one knows that Archer = Shirou in the Fate route. For all we know, Archer being summoned by Rin is part of a predestined timeline that takes place no matter what.

Actually, Archer does know, from very early on. Otherwise, he wouldn't have known to give the pendant back to Rin. Apparently, according to the Side/Material book (or, so someone on Beast's Lair told me) he actually remembered when Rin introduced herself to him, because he recognised her name.

So, that argument cannot be true, because Archer would know the situation, and thus would act to alter the timeline.

If she had the pendant on her, Archer would be summoned. This is evident by the fact that the mana deficient Shirou summoned Saber just by having her sheath.

We don't know that. It does perhaps seem likely, but we can't be certain. The thing is, the only way to make time travel consistent in a multiverse like the Nasuverse is to make every instance of it (which includes Archer) split off into a new universe. So, Archer should be from a timeline where he wasn't summoned. Or, at very least, there should exist at least one CG Emiya who is. Otherwise, you have an information creation paradox. Archer has to have come from somewhere.

And her not holding the pendant makes no sense, given her character.

Why not?

Honestly, we could make up any scenario to fit, but doing so while following the confines of the story that's already been presented is the only way to actually make sense of it.

Except that it doesn't fit, especially with the assertion that Fate Shirou isn't Archer. Plus, it makes no sense to assume that Archer's timeline was a Stable Time Loop, when FSN quite explicitly isn't one.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Actually, Archer does know, from very early on. Otherwise, he wouldn't have known to give the pendant back to Rin. Apparently, according to the Side/Material book (or, so someone on Beast's Lair told me) he actually remembered when Rin introduced herself to him, because he recognised her name.

So, that argument cannot be true, because Archer would know the situation, and thus would act to alter the timeline.

That doesn't make sense though, because otherwise he would've instantly attacked Shirou to attempt to fulfill his goal like he did in UBW. He knows that he has some form of relation to Rin, hence giving the pendant to her, but he doesn't know his past.

We don't know that. It does perhaps seem likely, but we can't be certain. The thing is, the only way to make time travel consistent in a multiverse like the Nasuverse is to make every instance of it (which includes Archer) split off into a new universe. So, Archer should be from a timeline where he wasn't summoned. Or, at very least, there should exist at least one CG Emiya who is. Otherwise, you have an information creation paradox. Archer has to have come from somewhere.

It's a common theme in time-travel stories to make it so the future happened before the past, so that the future confirms the past and makes it so the future happened.

Why not?

Because she does everything possible to increase her chances of success.

Except that it doesn't fit, especially with the assertion that Fate Shirou isn't Archer. Plus, it makes no sense to assume that Archer's timeline was a Stable Time Loop, when FSN quite explicitly isn't one.

You're going to have to specify what you mean by "stable time loop", since you keep using it and I have no idea what you mean.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by GDB

That doesn't make sense though, because otherwise he would've instantly attacked Shirou to attempt to fulfill his goal like he did in UBW.

No, because the first time he came across Shirou, he got pwned by Saber. I used to think that he only worked it out when he saw Shirou for the first time, but apparently, he worked it out earlier, according to the Side Material books.

Spoiler:

The reason Archer doesn't go after Shirou every time is because he has more than one goal (except for a day or two in UBW). Yes, he wants to kill Shirou (and that is his primary aim) but he also wants to let Rin win the war, both because he cares deeply about her, and because she's the only person he can trust with the Grail (other than Shirou, of course). That's why, in UBW, when she makes a contract with Saber, he says "she wasn't supposed to do that yet". He fully intended for Rin to contract with Saber, but he intended for Shirou to be dead by that point.

In Fate (and, indeed, in HF) there was no way for him to kill Shirou without endangering Rin, because he was wounded, and because she would protect Shirou. in UBW, however, because he's not wounded, he has more of a chance to plot, and also Shirou pisses him off by going after Caster when he had no chance to kill her (hence why he tries to kill Shirou at that point). Eventually, he gets so pissed off with Rin constantly foiling his plans that he says "fuck it", and decides that killing Shirou is more important than not letting Rin be raped to death by Shinji....

He knows that he has some form of relation to Rin, hence giving the pendant to her, but he doesn't know his past.

How the hell can that work?

He's just been told that she's left the pendant by Shirou's side, and he then tells her that he went and picked it up for her, and gives her his pendant. If he only knew that he had some relation to Rin, then how would he know that it was the same pendant that she had just left in the school with Shirou?

It's a common theme in time-travel stories to make it so the future happened before the past, so that the future confirms the past and makes it so the future happened.

The problem is that that isn't the case here, because Archer can change the past, hence UBW. Archer's actions can stop Shirou from becoming him, so it's not a stable loop.

Plus, the loop has to somehow be bootstrapped first.

Suppose Archer never existed. Then Rin, with the pendant, would summon someone else (since there's no Archer to summon). But, that Shirou would become Archer, so Rin would then summon Shirou instead.

If you only had one single universal continuity (with no parallel universes), then the 'original' timeline (with Rin summoning someone else) would be erased, and then you would get a stable time loop where Rin summoned Archer and Shirou ended up becoming him. But, the Nasuverse is a multiverse, so when someone time travels, that doesn't happen. Instead, a new universe is formed, in which Rin summons Archer from the original universe.

Actually, it's slightly more complicated than this, because it's actually possible that Archer did indeed come from a timeline where Rin summoned Shirou. But, it would be a slightly different Archer, since his experiences in his life would be different (and, Archer only has memories from one life, even the Counter Guardian Emiya may be a combination of many different Shirous). That Archer, in turn, would come from a timeline with another different Archer. Eventually, if you go far enough back, you would get to an Archer who came from a timeline where Rin summoned someone else.

Because she does everything possible to increase her chances of success.

But how does holding the pendant achieve that?

You're going to have to specify what you mean by "stable time loop", since you keep using it and I have no idea what you mean.

A stable time loop is one where the actions of the time traveller (in attempting to change the past) actually cause the event they were trying to prevent. In other words, what you described in the last paragraph.

[sona-nyl]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

than not letting Shirou be raped to death by Shinji....

It looks like you were half asleep when typing this.

[Cherry_Lover]

Oops....

I obviously wasn't concentrating when I wrote that....

Edited it now, though.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

No, because the first time he came across Shirou, he got pwned by Saber. I used to think that he only worked it out when he saw Shirou for the first time, but apparently, he worked it out earlier, according to the Side Material books.

Spoiler:

The reason Archer doesn't go after Shirou every time is because he has more than one goal (except for a day or two in UBW). Yes, he wants to kill Shirou (and that is his primary aim) but he also wants to let Rin win the war, both because he cares deeply about her, and because she's the only person he can trust with the Grail (other than Shirou, of course). That's why, in UBW, when she makes a contract with Saber, he says "she wasn't supposed to do that yet". He fully intended for Rin to contract with Saber, but he intended for Shirou to be dead by that point.

In Fate (and, indeed, in HF) there was no way for him to kill Shirou without endangering Rin, because he was wounded, and because she would protect Shirou. in UBW, however, because he's not wounded, he has more of a chance to plot, and also Shirou pisses him off by going after Caster when he had no chance to kill her (hence why he tries to kill Shirou at that point). Eventually, he gets so pissed off with Rin constantly foiling his plans that he says "fuck it", and decides that killing Shirou is more important than not letting Rin be raped to death by Shinji....

You seem to be thinking that the first time Archer tried to kill Shirou in UBW was after Caster was defeated. In case you forgot, he tried to kill him early in the story too, when they first encountered Caster.

How the hell can that work?

He's just been told that she's left the pendant by Shirou's side, and he then tells her that he went and picked it up for her, and gives her his pendant. If he only knew that he had some relation to Rin, then how would he know that it was the same pendant that she had just left in the school with Shirou?

So he can instantly trace a sword's properties just by looking at it, but he can't discern a piece of jewelry apart from any other given piece of jewelry?

The problem is that that isn't the case here, because Archer can change the past, hence UBW. Archer's actions can stop Shirou from becoming him, so it's not a stable loop.

Only if he remembers who he is. Otherwise, it can create a "stable loop" in fate.

But how does holding the pendant achieve that?

Because the amount of mana used is supposed to be proportional to the power of the servant you summon. This is bypassed if you use something connected to a specific servant, though.

[kakakka]

Originally Posted by GDB

You seem to be thinking that the first time Archer tried to kill Shirou in UBW was after Caster was defeated. In case you forgot, he tried to kill him early in the story too, when they first encountered Caster.

I don't think he's saying that. It's more like your second sentence.

[Keroko]

Idle curiosity, but isn't Archer having Rin's pendant a sign of a stable time loop in the first place? Archer only has that pendant because Rin used it to heal Shirou after he got wounded watching him and Lancer fight.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by GDB

You seem to be thinking that the first time Archer tried to kill Shirou in UBW was after Caster was defeated. In case you forgot, he tried to kill him early in the story too, when they first encountered Caster.

No, I wasn't. The "pissed him off by going after Caster" bit was referring to that scene (Shirou gets kidnapped, Archer saves him, Shirou goes after Caster, Archer gets pissed off and attacks him). But, that doesn't happen outside of UBW, because Shirou never gets kidnapped by Caster there.

So he can instantly trace a sword's properties just by looking at it, but he can't discern a piece of jewelry apart from any other given piece of jewelry?

Yes, he can, if he actually saw it. But, firstly, I'm not sure he did (he never witnessed her saving Shirou) and, secondly, even if he did see it, and thus realised that he possessed the pendant, wouldn't he then ask why? Shirou and Rin work it out in UBW and HF from the fact that there are two copies of the pendant, and Archer is pretty damn good at working things out and planning things. If Rin left the pendant with Shirou, and Archer now possesses that pendant, then he must be a future Shirou (or, else, Shirou gave it to him, I suppose).

Only if he remembers who he is. Otherwise, it can create a "stable loop" in fate.

But he does. Apart from the whole 'pendant' thing, he also gives Shirou a load of cryptic advice and the like that doesn't make sense if he didn't know his identity (he understands Shirou's tracing magic). Plus, he remembers in HF, and he remembers in UBW (from pretty early on), so why wouldn't he remember in Fate?

Also, it's canon, according to the Side Material book (apparently), that he knew from early on.

Because the amount of mana used is supposed to be proportional to the power of the servant you summon. This is bypassed if you use something connected to a specific servant, though.

Well, firstly, she never uses the mana in the pendant for the summoning, and she doesn't intend to, and secondly I don't see any evidence that the power of the servant summoned is dependant on the amount of mana used (although, admittedly, Rin might think it is). Kariya, who had virtually no prana whatsoever, managed to summon Lancelot. If a master carries out a summoning without a catalyst, then they get a servant who fits with their personality (Rider with Sakura, for example), regardless of power.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Idle curiosity, but isn't Archer having Rin's pendant a sign of a stable time loop in the first place? Archer only has that pendant because Rin used it to heal Shirou after he got wounded watching him and Lancer fight.

Not really, because he could easily have been watching a fight between Lancer and a different Archer that Rin summoned.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Not really, because he could easily have been watching a fight between Lancer and a different Archer that Rin summoned.

Which would then be impossible, because that would imply Archer did not have the pendant when Rin summoned this 'different' Archer.

Huzzah for paradoxes!

[Cherry_Lover]

What? Why?

Like I said, there are ways around it. Just because Rin had the pendant, that doesn't mean she has to summon CG Emiya. And, like I said, otherwise, it's paradoxical, since it can't be a stable time loop (since Fate Shirou is not Archer, at least not certainly).

[Keroko]

So it's more using the endless multi-verse principle?