2010-09-22, 08:13 | Link #9081 | |||
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
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in any lasting deal the "west bank" would be come the new Palestinians state, and the Gaza strip would remain an isolated strip of land belonging to no one, and controlled by an Islamic radical group. it has land passes that lead to Egypt for the transfer of goods and people, but other then that, and it gets humanitarian aid pumped into it through israeli land passes. other then that, its no mans land since neither Israel nor Egypt make any claim to it. or are you under the impression that Hamas is ever going to give up its control over it and let the Palestinian authority take over ? Quote:
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its called Leverage its not Israel's job to make a Palestinian state, but mearly to determine its boarders (how much of the west bank would form the new state) with MAJOR settelment blocks eventually being annexed to Israel (you can't forcefully move half a million people who came there willingly). the Palestinians have two competing interests on the one hand, they have an interest in getting as much land as they can in the final deal. on the other, they have an interest to drag it out as long as possible to keep getting charity. the settlements are a nice way of saying "the more time you wait, the less land you'll get" otherwise, what reason do the palestinians have to form a state of their own ever ?
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2010-09-22, 08:19 | Link #9082 | |
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Age: 35
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Lol Israel bend over backwards???? Proof please, I guess those settlements are the Israeli way of bending over backwards. |
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2010-09-22, 08:22 | Link #9084 | ||
For me the bell tolls
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and btw, Israel does pump in tons of aid to Gaza. All of the electricity in Gaza comes from an Israeli power plant -ie Israeli tax dollars. How would you feel if you were paying to supply electricity, and medical care to the same people who shoot rockets at you? Quote:
*the reason I "quote/unquote" 'give back' is because it's all land that Isreal won through various wars. They just never officially annexed it like they did the Golan, so now everyone sees it only as "occupied territory"
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2010-09-22, 08:27 | Link #9085 | |
Um-Shmum
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its Hamas territory, and that means that there is no chance of it becoming part of a single state with the PLO controlled west bank. the palestinians are now effectively divided into two different entities who are hostile to one another. instead of two state solution, you now have a de-facto three state solution.
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2010-09-22, 08:30 | Link #9086 | |||
Aria Company
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Further, winning land in wars doesn't work any more. This is not the age of colonialism where land is yours by right of conquest. Also this is all completely off topic. The topic at hand is a book written by a former Israeli PM that claims Bush offered to grant "citizenship rights" to 100,000 Palestinian refugees.
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Last edited by Kamui4356; 2010-09-22 at 08:44. |
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2010-09-22, 08:37 | Link #9087 | |
For me the bell tolls
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2010-09-22, 09:04 | Link #9088 | |||
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
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thats part of the problem. the Gaza strip and the west bank don't actually boarder one another, and both are too far apart to be able to conduct any kind of effective war between them. instead, the method of warfare consists of basically trying to turn each areas population against one their own government and thus increase their own support base in the enemies territory in the hopes of eventually pulling off an effective coup (which is part of why its not possible to just let the PNA "have" the gaza strip). and the main method of gathering support is with showing force. and since the gaza strip and west bank are too far apart for either side to show their force by attacking EACH OTHER, they show their force by attacking us instead. Quote:
they are an armistice line drawn at the end of the 1948 war by the troop positions on the ground. its not an actual agreement. and the 1967 lines imply that the west bank belongs to Jordan, who in an ACTUAL peace treaty, wavered any claims to it. as far as legally binding treaties go, the west bank belongs to Israel on paper (since its previous owner relinquished any claim to it) but since we don't WANT most of it, we never annexed it ourselves. the formation of an independent palestinian entity (state or otherwise) is actually something thats in ISRAEL's interest, more then it is in the Palestinians interest (because by forming a state, they relinquish any claims to OUR territory) hell, it might be true to say that its in their better interest to keep this going for DECADES, because it makes us look bad, and because they keep getting more and more money for it. but since they are taking their own sweet time with the idea of forming a state, we're giving them a reason to want to rush things a bit more. the more time they wait, the less territory they get. Quote:
in the west bank, Israel has to deal with an internationally recognized PNA who is a member of the UN, and who's leadership get invited to the white house. in Gaza, Israel has to deal with Hamas, who nobody recognizes and who is shunned by even most of the arab states as nothing more then terrorist scum. it might be preferable for israel to just pull out of most of the west bank, and let Hamas take over and destroy the PNA. both the PNA and Hamas want Israel's destruction, but Hamas is the only one who says it up front. which means, that with Hamas, we don't talk about anything at all no negotiations not talk about refugees, jerusalem, settalments, final boarders, or any of the other stuff thats fundamentally unsolvable and yet we keep having to discuss in our negotiations with the NPA our relationship with Hamas is the same as that with any other hostile nation. they don't shoot, we don't shoot. nothing more.
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Last edited by bladeofdarkness; 2010-09-22 at 09:31. |
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2010-09-22, 09:07 | Link #9089 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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Its also worth noting that it isn't just "Palestine" and it isn't just "Israel" -- there are factions with conflicting interests on both sides including particular factions who love the status quo and never-ending violence -- on both sides.
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2010-09-22, 09:51 | Link #9090 | ||||||
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2010-09-22, 10:07 | Link #9091 | |||||
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
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an attitude that makes NOT supporting them less appealing. plus, the PLO is viewed as old, corrupt, incompetent, and to a large amount of Palestinians, they are viewed as nothing more then a western backed puppet regime formed and kept alive by Israel and the US (to be fair, that last part is mostly true) funny how that works Quote:
we want them to say "we relinquish all rights to any territories beyond those agreed upon" first. just as the peace treaty with Egypt and Jordan did before they got their territories back. we pulled out of south Lebanon and Gaza without an agreement, and both cases resulted in making things WORSE. this is the middle east damn it, consessions are a sign of WEAKNESS, and to be viewed as weak is to invite an attack. Quote:
territorial exchanges are already a done deal, recognized by the US, EU, UN and even the Palestinian authority itself. the palestinians don't want 500,000 jews living on their land. Quote:
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better to have an enemy that is recognized as such by EVERYONE, then an enemy who is disguised as a friend. if you can't "solve" the conflict, its better to be able to "manage" it under terms that are more favorable to us.
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2010-09-22, 11:16 | Link #9092 | |||||
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Now once again this is completely off topic to the actual article I commented on.
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2010-09-22, 11:25 | Link #9093 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
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i will stop commenting mostly because its off topic, but i will say this
Israel has peace with Egypt (for 30 years) and Jordan (for over a decade), both of who's citizens hate Israel's guts. at the end of the day, peace is between Israel and any of its neighbors is entirely political and made with governments rather then peoples. and any peace treaty with the Palestinians would be the exact same way. a cold peace, with little actual relations, who's main advantage is a reduction of violence and allowing for a reduced defense expenditure for both parties. thats pretty much it. anyone seeking an end to the conflict, must adjust their expectations properly. you will never get a time when the Jews and Arabs will be like Germany and France are today.
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2010-09-22, 11:28 | Link #9094 | |
For me the bell tolls
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oh, and since Israel has 'occupied' that area, living quality for the Bedouins has gone way up. When you win land in a war like the 6 day war, sure it works. Israel won Sini, Golan, Gaza, and the West bank during that war. Sinai was given back to Egypt as part of a peace agreement, and Israel annexed the Golan. In the West bank, they started to build settlements on hill tops for strategic reasons. Call it a colony if you want. The prime minister has even put a freeze on building in anticipation the two state agreement...but the reason the talks for a two state solution aren't working is because Abbas want's Jerusalem as the capital, and Israel won't give it up. IMO that's totally reasonable. /rant/ If you want Israel to pull out of the West bank, tell that to the thousands of people who live there who would have to be kicked out of their homes, and who act as a buffer zone for the rest of Israel. Tell that to the 4 people who were shot last week by terrorists along the road to Hebron. Tell that to the the people who have rocks and Molotov cocktails thrown at their cars. When I went to hebron, I had to go in an armord bus and I could only stay in very small parts of the city which were guarded by Israeli soldiers because it wasn't safe for an American in the rest of it. My family visited a kibbutz near there, and that same day, a few hours after they left it was attacked. None of that sounds very conducive to peace talks.
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2010-09-22, 12:49 | Link #9095 | ||||||||||
Aria Company
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Seriously, what would you be doing in the Palestinians' position?
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2010-09-22, 13:03 | Link #9096 | |
Adventure ∀logger
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The Palestinians are shooting from civilian places ie, schools. They don't care to kill civilians, but they and everyone else makes a big fuss if Israel attacks back. Israel cares about the civilians. That is why they can't attack back. It's not right to use civilians as shields and then excuses. Even you should know that. (I think this debate should be moved to it's own thread since it's getting a bit big.)
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2010-09-22, 13:10 | Link #9097 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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negotiate a future for your children. take what you can get, and move on. and most importantly, don't fire missiles at the people who's sympathy you need in any future negotiations. they were already offered 90% of all the territory that they want in 2000. they aren't likely to get a better offer then that.
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2010-09-22, 13:15 | Link #9098 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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The overall big picture called the Defense bill would have passed yesterday if Harry Reid allowed more time to debate the bill and allow Republicans the opportunity to offer amendments. |
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2010-09-22, 13:15 | Link #9099 | |
Aria Company
Join Date: Nov 2003
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No you wouldn't and you know it.
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current affairs, discussion, international |
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