[MANGA] Espadas' Ranking

[Kallen4life]

I'm simply stating the fact that Kubo didn't tell us they WERE Vasto Lorde, since people tend to forget that fact.

Vasto Lorde level could either mean:
1.) Most of them were as strong as Vasto Lordes
2.) Most of them were Vasto Lorde "Level" (since you know...Vasto Lorde is an actual "Level" within the menos class.)

When you consider how Hallibel was once a weakling in comparison to an adjuchas level arrancar (who wasn't even a member of the Espada), it's safe to assume ALL of the Espada are well beyond VL level in terms of strength--this includes Aerionerio. Hell, even the Privaron Espada were likely Vasto Lorde "level" in terms of strength. So if Kubo meant most of them were VL "Level" in terms of strength, not only would it be an incorrect statement, but it'd be an irrelevant point. This means when Kubo states Vasto Lorde "Level" he's most likely referring to the menos class "Level" they managed to evolve to.

as far as my English is concerned by 'VL level' Kubo meant they actually were VL .. because what else then ? that's why I asked you to elaborate on your statement .. I wouldn't even think to doubt what he had meant by that if you hadn't commented on it

All he literally has to do is use Resurrección and look at his opponents head with one of his 50 eyes

quite true .. though it can by blocked by a Kido shield and as far as I understand it's still a projectile attack and can be simply dodged .. it's a very fast attack, but Byakuya also isn't the fastest in Bleach (as much as he hates it)


Zommari's skill is not so hot if the opponent knows about it - then it can be countered even if Zommari immediately goes for the head .. but knowledge is power, so that's always true

+ his released form seems slower then his non-released

+ take him out very fast, no goofing around, neither of his forms seems too keen on defence .. or take him out from a large distance

+ of course, not letting him release at all


but yeah, really hard to argue here .. one of the most glaring examples of IdiotBall in a Bleach fight

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

not sure I remember it correctly now, but I think the second time Byakuya got hit - in the hand, he has it held out in front of his face (and also shielding Rukia), i.e. it was aimed on his head as well as Rukia's, but he was fast enough to put his hand in it's path

Touche. But here's where plot protection comes in. Because when Zommari first used his ability, Kubo negated his IQ so that he'd target his left leg as oppose to doing the smart thing by immediately going for the only target that counts-- the head.

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

Zommari's skill is not so hot if the opponent knows about it - then it can be countered

Thing is, most of the Espada haven't demonstrated many skills they could use to counter Zommari's ability.

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

+ his released form seems slower then his non-released

Of course that's only speculative though. Because in the manga, he's not seen using Sonido in that form, but in the anime he does. So it's unknown as to whether he loses speed or not. Though I'd say it would be pretty silly of both him and Kubo if for the self proclaimed fastest of the Espada to loose speed in his released state.

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

+ take him out very fast, no goofing around, neither of his forms seems too keen on defence

As the fastest Espada (supposedly), trying to take him out very "fast" might prove a little difficult.

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

.. or take him out from a large distance

Maybe. But how many of the Espada have abilities that are both extremely long range and fast enough to guarantee hits against the fastest Espada?

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

+ of course, not letting him release at all

Good point again. But then going by that logic, even Barry shouldn't be worthy of the number one #1 spot. In things like this, I guess you gotta leave some room for the sake of the debate.

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

but yeah, really hard to argue here .. one of the most glaring examples of IdiotBall in a Bleach fight

*agrees*
Honestly, while I definitely think Zommari's underrated, I only placed him as high as I did for the sake of debating it. Because it's an easily debatable issue.

[Kallen4life]

well, I still doubt the fastest claim .. he was equal to Byakuya, Byakuya was a little slower (or equal) then Bankai Ichigo (way back in SS arc) .. then there's MASKED Bankai Ichigo (in a later arc too, he should've gotten better just from experience) who was equal to released Grimmjow .. and Grimmjow is #6 .. and there're still Ulquiorra, Starrk, even Halibel


gj with this, Kubo /sarcasm




if it came to be where Kubo had to nerf Zommari's haxxor I'd bet a 'head-shot' could be countered by 1) very strong willpower 2) just overpowering and erasing it with overwhelming reiatsu (possibly needing Kenpachi's w/o eyepatch level) 3) it's generally weaker if it's a head-shot on a captain-level opponent .. Rukia is no captain

still broken, shouldn't have made it in the first place .. just let him be truly the fastest and give Byakuya a high-speed swordfight

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

well, I still doubt the fastest claim .. he was equal to Byakuya, Byakuya was a little slower (or equal) then Bankai Ichigo (way back in SS arc) .. then there's MASKED Bankai Ichigo (in a later arc too, he should've gotten better just from experience) who was equal to released Grimmjow .. and Grimmjow is #6 .. and there're still Ulquiorra, Starrk, even Halibel


gj with this, Kubo /sarcasm

Indeed. There's plenty of inconsistencies to be found if we're to start thinking to deeply on the issue.

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

if it came to be where Kubo had to nerf Zommari's haxxor I'd bet a 'head-shot' could be countered by 1) very strong willpower 2) just overpowering and erasing it with overwhelming reiatsu (possibly needing Kenpachi's w/o eyepatch level) 3) it's generally weaker if it's a head-shot on a captain-level opponent .. Rukia is no captain

still broken, shouldn't have made it in the first place .. just let him be truly the fastest and give Byakuya a high-speed swordfight

Won't argue with you here.

[secretzfan]

Originally Posted by sayde

IMO:
9- Aerionerio- Gillain solo'd by Rukia of all people - nuff said
8- Syzael - Though I don't think he's weak. He took on Renji and Ishida at the same time with relative ease. And if nothing else, I don't see him losing to someone like Komamura, thus making him captain level IMO.
7 - Grimmjow - has no cheap abilities. He's just got a lot of strength and a lot of speed. He also was probably a VL since he was confirmed to have the potential to become one and Kubo confirmed that *most* of the Espada are.
6 - Noi - Once again, has no noticeably cheap abilities to speak of. But strength and reiatsu are above Grimm's. Probably a VL.
5 - Harribel - Has more reiastu than Noi. But unfortnately, also has no noticeably cheap abilities.
4 - Stark - Has the 2nd highest confirmed reiatsu lvl and a pretty useful ability (homing cero's/Kamikaze ghost-wolf attack), though it's not incredibly cheap
3 - Ulquiorra - Insane strength and speed through lvl2 resurrección and possibly higher reiatsu lvl than Stark.
2 - Yammy - for having almost unlimited strength and reiatsu.
1 - Zommari - Lets face it. Without plot protection, this guy can plausibly beat anyone. All he literally has to do is use Resurrección and look at his opponents head with one of his 50 eyes. Once that's done, he can just manipulate the opponent into either killing themself or standing still while he does the job. Similar to how Tousen lost to Kenpachi, Zommari had opportunities for easy wins and passed them up to do something stupid. But realistically, this ability is just plain cheap. The only reason I can't rank this guy #1 is because his ability definitely has ways around it. And since it's Kido based, it means Barry's breath might even be able to negate it somehow.
0 - Barry - death breath pwns - period.



You realize your entire point rest on nothing but semantics and interpretation? Vasto Lorde level could either mean:
1.) Most of them were as strong as Vasto Lordes
2.) Most of them were Vasto Lorde "Level" (since you know...Vasto Lorde is an actual "Level" within the menos class.)

When you consider how Hallibel was once a weakling in comparison to an adjuchas level arrancar (who wasn't even a member of the Espada), it's safe to assume ALL of the Espada are well beyond VL level in terms of strength--this includes Aerionerio. Hell, even the Privaron Espada were likely Vasto Lorde "level" in terms of strength. So if Kubo meant most of them were VL "Level" in terms of strength, not only would it be an incorrect statement, but it'd be irrelevant too. This means when Kubo states Vasto Lorde "Level" he's most likely referring to the menos class "Level" they managed to evolve to. I'll even go a step further by stating that I think every single one of the final 10 Espada (with the exception of #9) were VL's.

Actually a lot of what your saying is doesn't matter to me at least
I can say very well that if the lot of them were VL that they were even. Even Tia was strong although I see her as being the weakest VL and ULQ and Barragan being the strongest

[sayde]

I'll be honest with you secretzfan. I don't really know how to respond to a lot of your replies (for various reasons). So I typically tend not to in the first place. It's why this post is lacking in content and it's also why I won't debate the issue much further with you.

[secretzfan]

Originally Posted by sayde

I'll be honest with you secretzfan. I don't really know how to respond to a lot of your replies (for various reasons). So I typically tend not to in the first place. It's why this post is lacking in content and it's also why I don't feel debating with you on the issue much further.

I know I know just being funny here I am way to crazed at the moment.
______
Okay sorry regarding Tia though what makes you believe she is weak yes she lost to Hitugaya and all but in reatsu she was stronger that is probaly how the menos are raked too. Maybe VL really jsut have more reastu than captains it would explain this better

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by sayde

When you consider how Hallibel was once a weakling in comparison to an adjuchas level arrancar (who wasn't even a member of the Espada)

That was anime-only. In the manga, there's really nothing suggesting that gillian or adjuchas could ever match the strength of a VL, arrancar or not (except possibly Aaronerio since he's stated to have infinite potential). For hollows, VL is both separate stage of evolution as well as different tier of strength.

it's safe to assume ALL of the Espada are well beyond VL level in terms of strength--this includes Aerionerio. Hell, even the Privaron Espada were likely Vasto Lorde "level" in terms of strength. So if Kubo meant most of them were VL "Level" in terms of strength, not only would it be an incorrect statement, but it'd be irrelevant too. This means when Kubo states Vasto Lorde "Level" he's most likely referring to the menos class "Level" they managed to evolve to. I'll even go a step further by stating that I think every single one of the final 10 Espada (with the exception of #9) were VL's.

The Privaron are nowhere near that. Noitora mentioned in a flashback to Nel that a Vastro Lorde wouldn't possibly lose to him in a fight. Noitora was already in the Espada in that time (as no.8) and was an arrancar, but still felt he was no match for a Vastro Lorde. If even a full-fledged member of the Espada couldn't beat one there's no way one of the flunkies could.

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

That was anime-only. In the manga, there's really nothing suggesting that gillian or adjuchas could ever match the strength of a VL, arrancar or not (except possibly Aaronerio since he's stated to have infinite potential).

I disagree. In hindsight, I believe the manga does provide a subtle clue to suggest the notion that adjuchas lvl Arrancar at least could handle VL's. More on this below.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Noitora was already in the Espada in that time (as no.8) and was an arrancar, but still felt he was no match for a Vastro Lorde

Please point to the statement you're referring to. Because the closest translated comment I can find from Nnoitora suggesting anything remotely close to that was in chapter 312 when he stated:

If I can take 'em out just like that, ain't no way in hell they're vasto lorde.

And by the time it was animated, the next translation of an official source by a certain famous fan-subbing group also gave us a similar translation:

There's no way someone could be a Vasto Lorde if I could kill them that easily.

Clearly his comment didn't mean he would surely lose to a Vasto Lorde. It doesn't even mean he would necessarily have a difficult time with one. All it means is that a VL would've been more difficult to fight in comparison to the battles he was just in--which isn't saying very much at all. Because for all we know, the colony he destroyed could've and probably was composed mostly of plain ordinary non-menos class hollow since he implied to have killed 100 - 200 of them.

And besides, just think about it for a second. Why order your strongest and most precious henchmen on suicide missions to find hollows that would supposedly be so powerful that they could easily kill said henchmen if they were found? Logically speaking, if Aizen ordered his Espada to find new VL recruits, he must've had enough faith in the Espada's strength to be able to resist and subdue a VL themselves should the need arise. Otherwise, there'd be no point in sending them out on missions they stand little chance of returning from. He'd lose significant members of his army with nothing to show for it. Going by this logic, it's why I'm able to say with a clear conscience that even the privaron espada are above VL level in strength. Because before Aizen happened to finalize the members of the Espada, he obviously had to use former members (from the privaron class) to recruit some of the ones he had in the end.

As far as I'm concerned, the VL's strength was greatly exaggerated by an author who admits to fail at planning ahead and who even admits has to go back to read his own work (a.k.a Kubo Tite) through a proxy known as Hitsugaya. He made comments regarding VL's based on nothing but hearsay having never so much as encountered one himself prior to stating what he did. He basically blew VL's out of proportion just as badly as Rukia made the gillians seem when they first appeared. It's also the only single official statement we have in the manga that directly states how strong they supposedly are. Unfortunately when you're dealing with Kubo, you have to kind of accept the fact that things are subject to change.

So from the way I see it, Hallibels' flashback (be it canon or not) actually fixes more plot holes than it makes. Hitsugaya's statement (written by a flaky author 4 years ago) can very easily be written off as misinformation on his behalf. Because there's been practically nothing in the manga to justify his statements. On the contrary actually. On the other hand, Hallibel's flashback contradicts nothing but the evidence I just referred to. This is why I go by it. Because if Hallibel as a VL serves as a measuring stick for the average strength of all VL level menos, then suddenly all of those underwhelming performances on the Espada's behalf and all of those contradictions regarding how powerful they should've been, all begin to make sense. Because if VL's were actually only vice-captain level, then by becoming arrancar, it would make a lot more sense to see them fight on par with Captain level opponents to varying degrees as oppose to flat out slaughtering them (like the legends imply they should have been capable of).

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by sayde

Clearly his comment didn't mean he would surely lose to a Vasto Lorde. It doesn't even mean he would necessarily have a difficult time with one. All it means is that a VL would've been more difficult to fight in comparison to the battles he was just in--which isn't saying very much at all. Because for all we know, the colony he destroyed could've and probably was composed mostly of plain ordinary non-menos class hollow since he implied to have killed 100 - 200 of them.

In that same chapter Noitora was shown beaten up by group of hollow who weren't VL, (and we can deduce that because Nel saved Noi by killing them). So no, it doesn't take VL level hollow to challenge or defeat Noitora. He's below their level. At least he was at the time.

And besides, just think about it for a second. Why order your strongest and most precious henchmen on suicide missions to find hollows that would supposedly be so powerful that they could easily kill said henchmen if they were found?

Well, nothing was said about fighting them. As Nel mentions, they're only supposed to seek them out. We saw Aizen himself probably does the recruiting personally (as was the case with Barragan and Stark). Also, Aizen doesn't give a damn about his henchman at all. So if they were killed, well...sucks to be them.

Going by this logic, it's why I'm able to say with a clear conscience that even the privaron espada are above VL level in strength. Because before Aizen happened to finalize the members of the Espada, he obviously had to use former members (from the privaron class) to recruit some of the ones he had in the end.

Think about what you are saying. Privaron had enemies Chad was able to beat without too much trouble.

As far as I'm concerned, the VL's strength was greatly exaggerated by an author who admits to fail at planning ahead and who even admits has to go back to read his own work (a.k.a Kubo Tite) through a proxy known as Hitsugaya. He made comments regarding VL's based on nothing but hearsay having never so much as encountered one himself prior to stating what he did.

Even so, readers blew the description way out of proportion. Hitsugaya said the Vastro Lorde were stronger than most SS captains and that 10 Vastro Lorde would be enough to defeat SS. For some reason, people thought this meant they were unbeatable. Aizen never had 10 VL at his disposal since we know the Espada consisted of at least few adjuchas and one gillian, so Hitsu's words weren't proved wrong by that. And Histugaya obviously wasn't taking into account the vizards' aid (given that he didn't know they existed) when he presented the scenario about SS being beaten.

Finally, many of the Espada did display strength and/or speed surpassing that of individual captains and it took team effort to beat most of the stronger ones. Hell, Barragan completely outclassed Soifon in speed and strength. From what we saw he could've easily beaten her without even releasing. Ulq utterly embarrassed vizard Ichigo after he released (and Ichigo was literally helpless after the second release). After Stark released he fought two senior captains simultaneously, then did the same for two vizard captains.Halibel shown to be physically superior to Hitsu, even though his powers evened up the match somewhat. Even Yammi, though beaten off-screen and made to look foolish, it took combined effort of Byakuya and Kenpachi to defeat him.

Really, the "underwhelming" performance of the Espada not due to their lack of power. Kubo killed them off too quickly. Rather than slowly turn the tide of a battle, Espada would be killed off with simple deus ex machina. They would suddenly go from kicking the opponents ass one moment to losing horribly the next.

[secretzfan]

Even so, readers blew the description way out of proportion. Hitsugaya said the Vastro Lorde were stronger than most SS captains and that 10 Vastro Lorde would be enough to defeat SS. For some reason, people thought this meant they were unbeatable. Aizen never had 10 VL at his disposal since we know the Espada consisted of a few adjuchas and at least one gillian, so Hitsu's words weren't proved wrong by that.
Second. Histugaya obviously wasn't taking into account the vizards' aid (given that he didn't know they existed) when he presented the scenario about SS being beaten.

Finally, many of the Espada did display strength and/or speed surpassing that of of the individual captains and it took team effort to beat most of the stronger ones. Hell, Barragan completely outclassed Soifon in speed and strength. From what we saw he could've easily beaten her without even releasing. Ulq utterly embarrassed vizard Ichigo after he released. After Stark released he fought two senior captains simultaneously, then fought two vizard captains.Halibel shown to be physically superior to Hitsu, even though his powers evened up the match somewhat. Even Yammi, though beaten off-screen and made to look foolish, it took combined effort of Byakuya and Kenpachi to defeat him.

Really, the "underwhelming" performance of the Espada not due to their lack of power. Kubo killed them off too quickly. Rather than slowly turn the tide of a battle, Espada would have them killed off with simple deus ex machina. They would suddenly go from kicking the opponents ass one moment to losing horribly the next.

It is no doubt to me Kubo simply wanted too kill them all off. He set everything in place so he could do so. Kubo never kills heroes and this proves he didn't want too. Even without 10 Vl they should been powerful fighting one since they surpassed a captain but that is only one on one and only Tia had that chance and I believe she is the weakest VL. But I wonder if the battles were based on reatsu and Tia released and Hitsu released his who would win

Going by this logic, it's why I'm able to say with a clear conscience that even the privaron espada are above VL level in strength. Because before Aizen happened to finalize the members of the Espada, he obviously had to use former members (from the privaron class) to recruit some of the ones he had in the end.

Dude Syzael was stronger then does guys and we only saw up to 105. None of them compared to ulq or the current espada. They were beat by weaklings and the Mexican dude was beaten the moment Ichigo showed his hollow

[Kallen4life]

I think VL being stronger then a captain could mean ~average Captain .. someone like Sajin probably (no offence to the guy, I love his dogface) .. or maybe previous (10-th) Kenpachi, who apparently was pretty pathetic


guys like Unohana, Byakuya, Shunsui, Ukitake, Yoruichi, Urahara are definately well above average G-13 captain .. Shinji too .. I guess Kenpachi, Gin, Soi Fong, Mayuri as well (Mayuri gets points for being crazy prepared .. Urahara acknowledges him - and Urahara is likely the most intelligent character in the series) .. Tousen can't say .. Hitsugaya's kinda young, needs to realise potential and train with Bankai more

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by secretzfan

It is no doubt to me Kubo simply wanted too kill them all off. He set everything in place so he could do so. Kubo never kills heroes and this proves he didn't want too. Even without 10 Vl they should been powerful fighting one since they surpassed a captain but that is only one on one and only Tia had that chance and I believe she is the weakest VL. But I wonder if the battles were based on reatsu and Tia released and Hitsu released his who would win

Well yeah, Kubo won't let his heroes die, that's a fact. And in the end that's probably the main reason the Espada came off looking so underpowered. We still don't really know for sure which Espada were VL or not. Halibel was the only confirmed one and that was in anime.

But none of the Espada above Ulq were defeated in a straight 1-on-1. Closest was Halibel, who was trapped by Hitsugaya but then was perfectly fine when she got free. Yes, they all died while the good guys somehow only suffer minor injuries, but I never really got the feeling that any of them was overwhelmed by the power of single captain. They were either lazy, cocky, betrayed or teamed upped against. And they were against a force much more powerful than Hitsugaya originally thought because of the vizards.

[secretzfan]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Well yeah, Kubo won't let his heroes die, that's a fact. And in the end that's probably the main reason the Espada came off looking so underpowered. We still don't really know for sure which Espada were VL or not. Halibel was the only confirmed one and that was in anime.

But none of the Espada above Ulq were defeated in a straight 1-on-1. Closest was Halibel, who was trapped by Hitsugaya but then was perfectly fine when she got free. Yes, they all died while the good guys somehow only suffer minor injuries, but I never really got the feeling that any of them was overwhelmed by the power of single captain. They were either lazy, cocky, betrayed or teamed upped against. And they were against a force much more powerful than Hitsugaya originally thought because of the vizards.

Yea of course Ulq still came of strong in a 1 to 1 battle after all Ichigo had to transform to beat him and Ichigo is at captain's levels

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

In that same chapter Noitora was shown beaten up by group of hollow who weren't VL, (and we can deduce that because Nel saved Noi by killing them). So no, it doesn't take VL level hollow to challenge or defeat Noitora. He's below their level. At least he was at the time.

Actually, he was shown beaten up. That's it. We don't get to see who beat him up, we don't get to see when it happened, and we don't even get to see how it went down. So the only thing we can deduce is that he ended up in that condition by fighting even more hollow. For all we know, his reckless and suicidal conduct may have simply resulted in him taking on much more than he can handle (and more than a VL could handle for that matter). We don't even know when that fight takes place. It could've happened shortly after he already wasted energy on eliminating the previous colony. And it could've happened after he attempted to take on 1 hollow, or 1000. So sorry, but that point proves nothing at all.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Well, nothing was said about fighting them. As Nel mentions, they're only supposed to seek them out.

I don't see how you can seek out a potential recruit without the risk of engaging them in combat.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

We saw Aizen himself probably does the recruiting personally (as was the case with Barragan and Stark).

Barry and Stark also just happen to be the 2 strongest members and the ones that were likely the easiest to locate. So it's reasonable for him to locate and recruit them personally. Barry was situated in the middle of HM where hollows widely regarded him as the king. And Starks reiatsu was so powerful that he destroyed tons hollows just by being near them likely leaving a trail of dead corpses straight to him. He probably stood out like a sore thumb.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Also, Aizen doesn't give a damn about his henchman at all. So if they were killed, well...sucks to be them.

It's not matter of caring (or giving a damn). It's matter of effectively distributing and using your resources. Like I implied before, it's not a very productive use of your time and resources to send your best henchmen out on missions where they risk getting slaughtered when much of your goal rest upon building as strong of an army as possible. This means you want to keep the strongest guys you've got alive long enough to fight in the war. You don't send them out to do stupid stuff that the lower class henchmen could just as easily perform...unless the lower-tier henchmen are too weak to take care of the task. (And as we know, Aizen had an abundance of weaklings he could've used to scout for recruits) So, once again, if he chose the Espada to seek out new members, it's because he had to ensure there strength was enough to survive the journey, risk encountering a VL, and make it back alive.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Think about what you are saying.

I have. You just don't seem to be getting what I'm saying.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Privaron had enemies Chad was able to beat without too much trouble.

So? What's your point? If you're trying to imply that there's something unbelievable about Chad being stronger than a VL, than I'd have to disagree. I see nothing in the manga to contradict such an idea beyond Hitsugaya's statement. In fact, this is yet one more example that makes complete sense if Hallibel's flashback is allowed to be canon.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Even so, readers blew the description way out of proportion. Hitsugaya said the Vastro Lorde were stronger than most SS captains and that 10 Vastro Lorde would be enough to defeat SS. For some reason, people thought this meant they were unbeatable.

That might've been due to the number of different translations we got. Interestingly enough, not one of them state that a VL's strength to be above "most" captains. One source translated it to say:

The strength of a single Vasto Lorde is above that of any Captain.

which we know is complete BS. Because it directly implies them ALL to be more powerful than even Yamamoto. This particular scanlation all but confirms their strength to have been retconed if you chose to go by this. This translation also states that Aizen would need "over" 10 VL's to defeat SS which contradicts the scanlation by another group.

This other group in question gives us a completely different translation that mentions nothing of a VL's strength beyond confirming that 10 VL's = The end of SS. This translation also presented another glaring inconsistency by stating that Aizen would need only 10 to win (as oppose to more) and that they estimated he already obtained them (which turned out to be wrong according to you).

So regardless of whatever scanlation you want to pick from, they both state things that have turned out to be factually incorrect. I don't care how you want to look at it. Because either Hitsugaya was incorrect about the strength of a VL or Hitsugaya mentions nothing specific about their strength and was instead incorrect about the number Aizen recruited and/or the number required to win. Both seem to prove however, that Hitsugayas words are hardly the gospel (and neither are Kubo's for that matter). It's also a little vague in the sense that Hitsugaya's statements may have been meant to imply he was referring to VL's under the assumption that they already became arrancar. And if that's the case, then his statements are even more useless with regards to determining the strength of a non-arrancar VL.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Aizen never had 10 VL at his disposal since we know the Espada consisted of at least few adjuchas and one gillian

Actually, there's NO evidence whatsoever to prove without a doubt that some of them were adjuchas. Officially, we know #9 is a gillian, and the top 3 are VL's. But that's it. The rest of them could have all been VL's as there's nothing to contradict that. Even Grimm can't even be confirmed to be an adjuchas because we don't know exactly when he was recruited. All we know is that his fraccion confirmed he had the potential to become a VL. And he may have very well turned into one by the time he was found.

<edit>And then there's Wonderweiss. Now admittedly, he wasn't part of the Espada. But so what? He wasn't even give a number for that matter. So we can't base his strength by his official ranking (or lack of one) because that would imply him to be weaker than the Privaron Espada. WW was also shown with an appearance of a humanoid form immediately before becoming an arrancar which suggests he was a VL. He was also made for the sole purpose of challenging the captain commander himself. Now if that doesn't imply him to be a VL, then I don't know what does. So if all of the Espada except for #9 were indeed VL's (which once again is completely possible) and WW was also a VL, then actually Aizen succeeded in collecting 10 VL's thereby adding to the inaccuracy of Hitsugaya's comments.</edit>

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

so Hitsu's words weren't proved wrong by that. And Histugaya obviously wasn't taking into account the vizards' aid (given that he didn't know they existed) when he presented the scenario about SS being beaten.

Finally, many of the Espada did display strength and/or speed surpassing that of individual captains and it took team effort to beat most of the stronger ones. Hell, Barragan completely outclassed Soifon in speed and strength. From what we saw he could've easily beaten her without even releasing.

Do you really want to go here? Without respira, Barry's speed and strength wasn't all that great. In case you forget, even without releasing, Barry was slowing down Soifon's movements when she got close. This would understandably negate the speed of her attacks and the force behind her attacks as well. So in all actuality, Soifon was probably faster than him. Hell, even Omeada is capable of staying away from him. Ironically enough, though he may have been capable of defeating Soifon without releasing, hachi proved he was capable of solo'ing his released state. So respira aside, I don't think he was definitely superior to captain level. He just had an ability that that disregarded strength levels. So in the end, the right ability was needed to defeat him. Because power levels alone meant nothing.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Ulq utterly embarrassed vizard Ichigo after he released (and Ichigo was literally helpless after the second release).

Ulq's superior strength and Ichigo's lack of strength presents so many contradictions in-and-of-itself that I'm a little overwhelmed by the shear number of thoughts that come to my mind when you bring it up. I don't even want to comment on this by the sole fact that Bankai Hitsugaya was able to keep up with a released Hallibel while Ichigo couldn't even hold his own against Ulqs 1st release while in Bankai and with the mask on. Now if I keep going along this train of thought, I'm introduced to even more plot holes that I'd rather not get into. This post is long enough as it is.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

After Stark released he fought two senior captains simultaneously, then did the same for two vizard captains.

Yet none of the captains he fought went all out. Seriously, we can't say Stark was definitely superior to captain level when not a single captain he fought used Bankai while Stark was going all out. On top of that, when he finally was defeated, it was no longer a 2-on-1 battle. It was a fair 1-on-1 battle between Stark and a Shunsui that finally got serious, but not serious enough to go Bankai. So Starks performance was very underwhelming for #1. In fact, he's the only one he didn't fight a single Bankai at all.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Even Yammi, though beaten off-screen and made to look foolish, it took combined effort of Byakuya and Kenpachi to defeat him.

Yes. I'm glad there's at least one Espada who legitimately took on the full brunt of 2 captains power. By all means, if there was ever one Espada I could legitimately claim to have maybe been superior to Captain level, it would likely be Yammi. I say "maybe" because unfortunately for him, he failed to defeat either of the Captains he fought against. Zaraki even went on to say the battle was boring. On top of that, he lost to two captains who spent half their time trying to fight eachother. And not one of them admitted Yammi to be a formidable opponent. All they consistently said about him was he was a nuisance. However, I'm willing to cut #0 a break for arguments sake.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Really, the "underwhelming" performance of the Espada not due to their lack of power. Kubo killed them off too quickly. Rather than slowly turn the tide of a battle, Espada would be killed off with simple deus ex machina. They would suddenly go from kicking the opponents ass one moment to losing horribly the next.

So basically you're arguing that the Espada were superior to Captain level but performed poorly thanks to bad writing. I'd like to believe that, but there's too many contradictions to be found if we assume their strength was in fact superior to their opponents. On the other hand, if their real strength turned out to be overestimated, then suddenly almost everything falls right into place.

So Hallibels flashback > Hitsugaya's/Kubo's crappy 4 year old translated statements with confirmed incorrect info.

[secretzfan]

Actually, he was shown beaten up. That's it. We don't get to see who beat him up, we don't get to see when it happened, and we don't even get to see how it went down. So the only thing we can deduce is that he ended up in that condition by fighting even more hollow. For all we know, his reckless and suicidal conduct may have simply resulted in him taking on much more than he can handle (and more than a VL could handle for that matter). We don't even know when that fight takes place. It could've happened shortly after he already wasted energy on eliminating the previous colony. And it could've happened after he attempted to take on 1 hollow, or 1000. So sorry, but that point proves nothing at all.

Nnitora is differently seen at a time I was unsure if he was a VL and without seeinhg his human form I will never be sure so I can agree with you there. However I can deduce from what his resurrection looks like, but then agian Tia looked like a adjucahs too and she is a VL after all Ulquirra is VL too. The fact is we don't know a lot on Nnoritra I mean how far is strength from Ulq maybe real far after all Ulq has a second resurrection and I can see Nnoritra losing to it hard, but then again it is a mere opinion that could be wrong.

I don't see how you can seek out a potential recruit without the risk of engaging them in combat.

Unless you be there friends

I have. You just don't seem to be getting what I'm saying.

The privaron aren't anything there weak not VL not even close to the actual Espada

[sayde]

Originally Posted by secretzfan

The privaron aren't anything there weak not VL not even close to the actual Espada

I dare you to find official evidence to prove they're weaker than non arrancar VL's. Go ahead. Try it. But of course, that would involve first trying to establish exactly how powerful a VL is before they become arrancar. Good luck with that. Because the evidence we do have is rare, vague, and inconsistent at best unless you're willing to use the anime as evidence--which would only prove my point.

[Kallen4life]

In fact, he's the only one he didn't fight a single Bankai at all.

Aaroniero and Nnoitra .. neither Rukia, nor Kenpachi have Bankai ^^

well, Nnoitra did fight Ichigo Bankai briefly, but that was immediately after a very exhausting Grimm fight for Ichigo .. not sure how much it counts .. although Kenpachi's 2-h swing is practically a Bankai by itself ^^



but it's still true that Starrk didn't face a Bankai .. just shows that it's not needed whenever illusion or some of the kido-type Zanpakuto is involved .. they're like the doujutsu (Sharingan, Rinnegan) of Bleach =/

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

Aaroniero and Nnoitra .. neither Rukia, nor Kenpachi have Bankai ^^
well, Nnoitra did fight Ichigo Bankai briefly, but that was immediately after a very exhausting Grimm fight for Ichigo .. not sure how much it counts .. although Kenpachi's 2-h swing is practically a Bankai by itself ^^/

You're right. I forgot about #9.

[demonkevy666]

Originally Posted by sayde

I dare you to find official evidence to prove they're weaker than non arrancar VL's. Go ahead. Try it. But of course, that would involve first trying to establish exactly how powerful a VL is before they become arrancar. Good luck with that. Because the evidence we do have is rare, vague, and inconsistent at best.

isn't there a list where it's starts at hollows and End with Vasto lordes ?

most hollows eat souls in the living world, or turn them in other hollows.

and other start to eat each other for power.