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Old 2011-04-10, 23:01   Link #22581
Leafsnail
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It answers how Kanon came back to life in ep2 and ep3, the closed room chain in ep3 (the adults didn't lie about anything in that one, probably), why Kanon had no corpse in ep2 or ep4 and the ep6 logic error.

...Without it, I don't think there'd be any way to arrive at the conclusion that Yasu is not a character in the story at all but in fact is only represented through personas/ imaginary friends. I don't think it would've been possible to work it out from Shannon alone.
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Old 2011-04-11, 02:59   Link #22582
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
That said it's strictly implicit. Yet Battler makes 2-3 direct references to his willingness to gamble heavily on a major risk in ep6 alone. Have we forgotten how he can have bursts of brilliance in between apparent droughts of incompetence? That's part of what makes his behavior surprising. It's hardly out of character.
Ladies and gentlemen, I do believe this is checkmate:

Quote:
Originally Posted by EP8 Narration
......He had a bad feeling about this.
This shouldn't have been possible.
He was the Game Master of this game board.
How was it possible for something to occur without the Game Master's knowledge...?
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Old 2011-04-11, 06:48   Link #22583
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And yet EP8 shows that it actually happens.

Don't quote things out of context.


This is the scene of Battler that realizes that Ange is missing. The piece Ange was removed from the gameboard without him noticing, he had to physically check the room first. This proves that Battler doesn't have an omniscent view on the gameboard.

What is actually strange here is that the event that could have triggered Ange's disappearance couldn't have happened because he was the Game Master and he never planned that.

The truth is Bernkastel hijacked the gameboard and he didn't even notice until he was told that Ange disappeared.


And yeah if you think enough about it you can notice that it doesn't make much sense, but these are the facts.
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Old 2011-04-11, 07:37   Link #22584
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Leafsnail:
1) The only evidence that Kanon came back from the dead in Episode 3 is a scene that occurs when Battler is absent. If that's admissible, so is the scene in Episode 1 when the servants are preparing dinner just off-screen, and Shannon and Kanon are both there. So is the scene in Episode 2 when both Shannon and Kanon are outside the chapel.

2) How does "Shannon = Kanon" explain Kanon's resurrection better than "Shannon != Kanon"?
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Old 2011-04-11, 08:48   Link #22585
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
You're thinking this too much. It's like the cheese thing in arc 6. Of course if you think about it too much Battler's answer of 1 slice raises more questions then it answer, but that's because you think too much. Shkanon is a "riddle trick" that solves most murders on Rokkenjima story, that's it.
Except it doesn't. Delete Kanon entirely and almost nothing changes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo
This is the scene of Battler that realizes that Ange is missing. The piece Ange was removed from the gameboard without him noticing, he had to physically check the room first. This proves that Battler doesn't have an omniscent view on the gameboard.
I think his point is more as follows:
  • In ep8, Battler believes himself to have omniscient control over the game board, and is surprised when something happens outside his knowledge.
  • But in ep6, something apparently happened outside his knowledge, so Battler should already know such a thing is possible.
  • Therefore either Battler has inexplicably forgotten what happened last time he was Game Master, or the Battler GMing ep8 is not the same Battler that GM'd ep6, or Genius Battler is true and this is actually the first time someone has done something without Battler's knowledge.
I leave it to you which is more probable.
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Old 2011-04-11, 08:50   Link #22586
Leafsnail
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Leafsnail:
1) The only evidence that Kanon came back from the dead in Episode 3 is a scene that occurs when Battler is absent. If that's admissible, so is the scene in Episode 1 when the servants are preparing dinner just off-screen, and Shannon and Kanon are both there. So is the scene in Episode 2 when both Shannon and Kanon are outside the chapel.
The scene is clearly a metaphor. I don't see any real reason to doubt it. "Yasu put on her Kanon voice and told Jessica to follow her" seems like by far the best justification for that scene (including why Jessica wasn't allowed to touch Kanon).

The first one you mention is indeed valid in a metaphorical sense. Shannon feels like Kanon is there (note that Gohda completely ignores him). This makes sense since they seem to have something of an "imaginary friend" relationship.

The second one... I can't remember Shannon being present at that at all, actually. I remember her being quite conspicuously absent. Would you mind citing it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
2) How does "Shannon = Kanon" explain Kanon's resurrection better than "Shannon != Kanon"?
I guess you could say it's not so much that Shkannon is an explanation in itself. It's more like Shkannon points us towards the explanation. It's evidence that Kanon/ Shannon are just personas of another person, which can therefore be discarded and picked up again. Even if you don't regard it as acceptable evidence, it at least brings up the possibility in the reader's mind.

Episode 2 is arguably explained better by Shkannon than by 2 people who can independantly die by personality death. "Gohda sees Kanon, who changes clothes into Shannon" would seem to explain his testimony quite well ("At first I thought it was Kanon, but then...").
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Old 2011-04-11, 10:24   Link #22587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Episode 2
`"Y, ...yes, it was me. ......When I went to the dining hall to clean up the tea set, ......there was a memo with 'chapel' written on it..."
Shannon held out the memo with a shaking hand.
;「……誰の字? 兄さんや姉さんの字ではないわね。…それで、あなたはここへ来て、これを見つけたのね。 」
「はい……。」
`"......Whose handwriting? It isn't Nii-san's or Nee-san's handwriting. ...And then, you came here, and found this, right?"
"Yes......"
;「…楼座さま、………これを。」
`"...Rosa-sama, .........look at this."
;「何? ……………ハッピーハロウィン、フォー、……えッ?!」
`"What? ............Happy Halloween, for, ......wha?!"
; 嘉音が、不気味な魔法陣の下に書かれた一行の英文を指し示す。

 指摘されるまで、魔法陣の図形の一部だと思い込んでしまっていて気付かなかった。
`Kanon pointed at a single line of English written below the creepy magic circle.

Until it had been pointed out to her, she had thought it was just another part of the magic circle, and hadn't noticed it.
Also, if Shannon=Kanon, what is the problem with Jessica touching Kanon? It would be exactly the same as every other time she'd touched Kanon?
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Old 2011-04-11, 11:03   Link #22588
Leafsnail
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Fair enough on ep2, but that could still be explained via metaphor (Shannon goes off to attend to a guest who doesn't exist before Battle arrives, afterall).

For Jessica touching Kanon... "Kanon, why are you wearing a dress??"
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Old 2011-04-11, 11:35   Link #22589
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Forgot to mention: Battler saw Shannon's corpse before Jessica met ghost-Kanon.
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Old 2011-04-11, 11:53   Link #22590
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I think his point is more as follows:
  • In ep8, Battler believes himself to have omniscient control over the game board, and is surprised when something happens outside his knowledge.
  • But in ep6, something apparently happened outside his knowledge, so Battler should already know such a thing is possible.
  • Therefore either Battler has inexplicably forgotten what happened last time he was Game Master, or the Battler GMing ep8 is not the same Battler that GM'd ep6, or Genius Battler is true and this is actually the first time someone has done something without Battler's knowledge.
I leave it to you which is more probable.
This. Furthermore, not only did Battler believe he had omniscient control over the game board, Beatrice and Lambdadelta agreed with him. If you want to argue that Battler is wrong, you also have to explain the other two.

And just as importantly, what purpose would making them be wrong actually serve? The end result of that scene is that they know someone is doing things behind Battler's back anyway, so if Bern already managed it before, there shouldn't be a compelling reason to contradict it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
This is the scene of Battler that realizes that Ange is missing. The piece Ange was removed from the gameboard without him noticing, he had to physically check the room first. This proves that Battler doesn't have an omniscent view on the gameboard.
I think what we can establish from that search is that the game master can't see the entire board at once, BUT normally it's impossible to touch the board with his permission, so he's effectively omniscient anyway.

For a metaphor, think about a blind chess player playing a game by phone. The player can't see the pieces, but he normally understands the whole board because he set up the starting position and all moves have to go through him. But if someone has an extra key to his house, they could quietly steal a piece, and he wouldn't notice until the next time he tried to move it.
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Last edited by LyricalAura; 2011-04-11 at 12:14.
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Old 2011-04-11, 13:09   Link #22591
Leafsnail
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Forgot to mention: Battler saw Shannon's corpse before Jessica met ghost-Kanon.
Which is exactly why Yasu didn't have the time to change outfits. "The death is being faked again, creating a closed room with the culprit hiding in plain sight" would be my interpretation. Shannon would pretty much have to follow Jessica and Nanjo, leaving her with no time to pick up Kanon's outfit or change.
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Old 2011-04-11, 13:50   Link #22592
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
[*]But in ep6, something apparently happened outside his knowledge, so Battler should already know such a thing is possible.[*]Therefore either Battler has inexplicably forgotten what happened last time he was Game Master, or the Battler GMing ep8 is not the same Battler that GM'd ep6, or Genius Battler is true and this is actually the first time someone has done something without Battler's knowledge.[/list]I leave it to you which is more probable.

You are overanalyzing it. The Game Master doesn't have an absolute knowledge of the game board, he knows thing to a "certain degree", and it's really lame if you ask me but that's how it is.

If you interpret that sentence literally then it would mean that it's natural that the Game Master is omniscent but in that case nothing of what Bern and Erika did in EP6 would make any sense.

Your theory shouldn't be called "genious Battler" but "retarded Bernkastel".
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Old 2011-04-11, 14:04   Link #22593
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I always saw those scenes in a different way. As long as there is a possibility of something happening then it could happen. So Battler created a scenario where the family members got him out of the bind. Erika planned for that and created her own scenario where that wasn't possible. If Battler had phrased some reds differently near the start of that game he would have prevented Erika's scenario from working.
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Old 2011-04-11, 14:36   Link #22594
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You are overanalyzing it. The Game Master doesn't have an absolute knowledge of the game board, he knows thing to a "certain degree", and it's really lame if you ask me but that's how it is.

If you interpret that sentence literally then it would mean that it's natural that the Game Master is omniscent but in that case nothing of what Bern and Erika did in EP6 would make any sense.

Your theory shouldn't be called "genious Battler" but "retarded Bernkastel".
No. You can't handwave this. This is a serious logical problem. You can't just say "you're overanalyzing it" and ignore it (while at the same time completely making up how you believe the story works and asserting it as truth, which you don't have any right to do). Quite the contrary, you're underanalyzing.

Address the logical contradiction. Battler cannot possibly be surprised in ep8 if he was surprised once before in ep6. The very idea that it happened twice, both times involving Bernkastel, should mean that Battler was expecting it. How does his reaction make sense in light of the fact that he ought to have already known this sort of knowledge gap was possible?

It doesn't. The scenario can only turn out the following ways:
  • Battler was surprised in ep6 and in ep8. Only explanation for not noticing the similarity is he forgot or is hopelessly stupid.
  • Battler was not surprised in either ep6 or ep8. Apparently contradicted by his conversation in ep8, with no evidence to suggest he has any reason to pretend otherwise.
  • Battler was surprised in ep6 but not in ep8. Apparently contradicted by his conversations in ep8, which no evidence to suggest in ep8 that he was pretending.
  • Battler was not surprised in ep6 but was in ep8. Apparently contradicted by the Logic Error, but there is enormous circumstantial evidence in ep6 and beyond to suggest it was a gamble on Battler's part. Also accounts for his apparent surprise in ep8 when it happens "again."
Look, there's no way around this. Battler can't be surprised twice by the same trick unless he's ignorant, a moron, or a completely different Battler. If he's surprised the second time, it stands to reason he wasn't surprised the first time. And there is evidence to support that.

What is the alternative logical solution to this that allows one to cling to the idea of his consistent incompetence?
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Old 2011-04-11, 15:50   Link #22595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roseweave
There's a similar set of problems with Shkannontrice.

And it's not true that she wasn't seen by anyone - after all there were plenty of sightings of Beatrice around the mansion. It's a big enough island, too, there may even be other random hidden buildings beside Kuwadorian, or she could have been taken off the island.

What's of note to me is that it's mentioned Yasu was quite ill when younger, but this seems forgotten later on in the story. I think it's likely her illness was tied with her disappearance(or her sudden change to Shannon, or whatever).
There's a difference between being seen as a ghostly figure in the windows, and never being caught face to face 24/7 in an enclosed area for about five years.

And Yasu's illness is possibly just a coverup as part of her orphan backround, for all we know.

Quote:
Fans came up with that. The name Sayo could be a lie too.
The name Sayo is Shannon's official name on record, as is Yasuda's for Yasu. Since Sayo is a first name and Yasuda a surname, if they're the same person...

Quote:
Both Shannon and Yasu are seen and referred to together by the maids.

We can only trust those scenes. We can't trust the scenes where Shannon and Yasu are alone, because one of them could be making those up - didn't you learn anything from Natushi in Ep.5? Same thing, with some differences. Kinzo was still a real guy.
The only time the servants actually talk about Shannon in a context where she is a separate person from Yasu is when they're talking to Zepar and Furfur. Yea...not really the best context for reality-determination. Even still, the evidence is heavily in favor of Shannon being Yasu's imaginary friend.

Quote:
Fantasy scene. Their personalities are very different. And Shannon doesn't resort to escapism in the same way Yasu does.
Of course it's a fantasy scene, it's a DREAM. Why giving the dream as a framing device if it's a fantasy scene? Why not just have Shannon patrolling the halls, sees a golden butterfly, and is whisked to a magical world?

Fantasy Scenes are always interwoven with bits of truth. If Shannon and Beatrice can only speak to each other in dreams, there is a reason for that.

Quote:
But what's of note is that Maria never had a "golden" land of her own. Initially, we only seen the Golden land between Shannon and Beatrice, and Beatrice and
Maria. This should tell you something.
Why should she? She just piggybacks on Shannon's, and before that was content just trying to win Rosa's love. I don't think you understand metaphor all that well.

Quote:
The Chick/Elder Beato and the "Universe" itself don't have to be created at the same time, so they don't have to have the same triggers. Beatrice and her universe are not quite the same thing.
That's not what I was saying, but thanks for elaborating your lack of understanding.

Quote:
Fantasy scene. Shmion bullshit.

More believable than Shkannontrice by a mile.
No, it's not. You're only able to make your idea work by deleting scenes, ignoring dialogue, making up rules and scenes that don't actually occur in the novel, and use theories to support theories.

Quote:
I just did. You haven't really given any hard proof.
I've given citations in the novel. All you've done is go "NUH UH FANTASY SCENE."

Unless you can give me a non-magical explanation for how Shannon can transfer her emotions to another flesh-and-blood person, memories included, then they're the same person.

Quote:
I don't think you have. The point is, it's possible that only the person that solves the riddle and gets headship survives the massacre/b0mb by feeling to Kuwadorian - of course, it turned out to be Eva, so depressingly, nobody won, but that's what suggests this possibility. I'm not sure how this fits with how the Ep7 tea party/Ep 8 answer is depicted. There are too many unknowns.

Shkannontrice is just a truly awful theory. I don't know why you're getting so aggressive at someone for trying to make better sense of the whole thing.
You haven't actually brought up a single hole in Shkanontrice, though. You just proposed your own idea, which has EVEN MORE holes, and you can't even plug them up.

And come on, now. Zepar and Furfur go on and on about how furniture doesn't have a complete soul, and for one of them to be complete the other contestants have to give up their soul-pieces. If that's not a metaphor for some MPD bullshit I don't know what is.

Also Genius Battler confirmed woot woot
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Old 2011-04-11, 16:02   Link #22596
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Also Genius Battler confirmed woot woot
Well, at least I may have been right about two things.
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Old 2011-04-11, 22:40   Link #22597
cronnoponno
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Spoiler for Umineko:


Put into a spoiler for length. Please feel free to contradict me on anything I have said as I am very open to that and would enjoy learning more even if it means making my assumptions look stupid.

Also editing for good measure, Maria has claimed that Beatrice can possess people in episode 7. Perhaps Beatrice ''possessed Maria'' and wrote the note thinking she was Maria? Which would explain why it's not in Maria's handwriting.

Last edited by cronnoponno; 2011-04-11 at 22:56.
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Old 2011-04-12, 01:11   Link #22598
Genyou
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On the topic of GM Battler being surprised, I don't really understand the issue. It was mentioned that both times Bernkastel was involved, right? Wouldn't it take a miracle for an omniscent being to be surprised?
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Old 2011-04-12, 11:25   Link #22599
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On the topic of GM Battler being surprised, I don't really understand the issue. It was mentioned that both times Bernkastel was involved, right? Wouldn't it take a miracle for an omniscent being to be surprised?
After it happens once, you might be like "Holy heck, what happened!?" When it happens twice, even if it slips past you, are you really going to be like "Well that's weird, that shouldn't be possible!" You should already know it is possible... because it happened once already, and everyone involved in the conversation was there to see it happen.
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Old 2011-04-12, 12:21   Link #22600
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On the topic of the medical records, they're obviously a clue that wasn't presented. So it should fall under Knox's 1st(if we're allowed to use Knox and Van Dine rules).
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