2011-04-29, 08:12 | Link #22701 | |
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Piece and Meta-Battler never knew as much as Battler-Prime because he was struggling to rediscover his past and working from the message bottle template of Battler, who was based on another person's expectations or impression of him. And given Battler's poor judgment of character, it wouldn't be altogether surprising to see someone get him completely wrong too.
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2011-04-29, 09:28 | Link #22702 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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I thought that he didn't want to see Ange because he didn't consider himself to be Battler? It's not like Ikuko was hiding her location from him. And Ange vanished without a trace in 1998, so after that even Featherine couldn't be held responsible without demanding that she violate the rules of magic.
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2011-04-29, 13:36 | Link #22703 | ||||||
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The thing is, though, that we have no proof that Ange was killed by a sniper anyway; it's fan conjecture. For all we know, Amakusa sniped all those dudes to save Ange, and then the "Ange Ushiromiya died in 1998" is her disappearing and changing her name. Even if he did shoot her, the "Eva" scene, being a fantasy, could have continued after she was shot, just like the Episodes have magic scenes continue with the characters after they've been blown to smithereens by the bomb. Quote:
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Multiples aren't able to communicate with their other selves face to face; they typically write down notes or use recorders and answering machines or something like that, as if they were chronic amnesiacs. Shannon is forgetful, but it doesn't imply complete gaps in time; Yasu is clumsy and forgetful without losing time; this is an established character trait. Similarly, Yasu constructing characters and not letting them share life experiences with herself is just keeping continuity. If Yasu had memory gaps between all her personalities and she indeed had Multiple Personality Disorder, she would not be able to control the shifts or construct this elaborate plan that kept absolutely everyone from finding out Shannon and Kanon and Beatrice are the same person. The Red doesn't hurt "Kanon-as-alter" theory, though. Shannon is Kanon, so she can claim his name. But anyway, I'm going to have faith in Ryukishi. Despite his tremendous fuckups overall, he's fairly good about constructing characters and researching mental illness. The idea that Yasu is roleplaying with herself is not only precedented within the story with Ange and Maria, but also tremendously less retarded.
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2011-04-29, 21:27 | Link #22704 | |
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Personally, I think Actress!Yasu makes the purpose Love Dual become "Waaaa. I can't decide which of the people I'm cheating on to stay with. Waaa. " Multiple!Yasu and the fantasy explanation for the Love Dual might both be unrealistic, but at least they don't make me loathe anyone. |
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2011-04-29, 22:43 | Link #22705 | |
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She loves Battler, but they were never in a relationship - they were 12. She loves George, and that's a pretty well established relationship. She loves Jessica, but they were neber in a relationship, either, and I read it as playing further on her gender-angst. Furthermore, as far as we know, Yasu outright rejected Jessica advances in the past, and tried to discourage her. I mean, I didn't entirely like the Love Duel either - "I just can't decide which young wealthy cousin to get jiggy with for good." But Actress-Yasu presents a person with these distinctly seperate modes of self, and the problematic of which one of these selves to go on with the rest of life with hits a head. From Zepar / Furfur's dialogue, Yasu is clearly aware that it's wrong to NOT make a decision. Also, pretty sure "I have literal, medical DID" doesn't work in a way that aligns with the Love Duel Mechanics, as in, real DID doesn't come down to biting the bullet and making a choice. The Love Duel is kinda ... Yasu realizing that her cosplay imaginary friend shenanigans are unfeasible past October 1986. |
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2011-04-29, 23:35 | Link #22706 | |
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2011-04-30, 12:38 | Link #22707 | |||
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2011-04-30, 20:49 | Link #22708 |
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Not to mention if she had real DID and one of her personalities was a murderer, or knew about a murder but wanted to keep silent, or was otherwise complicit, that's no guarantee the other personalities would have exactly the same moral and rational compunctions that would keep them silent. If you had actual medical DID it would be pretty hard to get away with planning anything bad if anyone else - be it yourself or any other person while the murderous personality is indisposed and can't do anything about it - catches on.
And if you have actual DID, someone will catch on. You would basically be required to squirrel away all your preparation so well that not even you could stumble upon it, and that really isn't as easy as it sounds because you can't fool muscle memory. Shannon absentmindedly flips up a carpet with her foot because Beatrice stores her disturbing writings under there and the body moves on instinct? "Huh, what's this?" Yeah, way to go, you just foiled your own plot. Not as easy as you thought it would be, eh? To say nothing of the entirely possible scenario where the symptoms don't recur and you're of a non-murderous mindset for a while. All the planning on earth won't help if you get right through the window of opportunity never aware you were supposed to be killing anyone. Much easier to believe in acting or an overactive imagination, and easier still to believe no criminal intent at all.
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2011-04-30, 21:31 | Link #22709 |
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Regardless of her nature, I don't think Yasu murdered anyone or allowed anyone to be murdered. Since, Beato wanted Battler to solve the mystery, but made sure to declare the human Beatrice had died in 1963. Granted Yasu is a different Beatrice, but Beato claimed they were the same person. Thus in my opinion having Yasu be the culprit is to the who-done-it what magic is to the how-done-it.
Also, just to be clear, I never liked the idea of Yasu having multiple personalities. I simply disliked it less then Actress!Yasu while I was misremembering the nature of Kanon and Jessica's relationship. My current preference in order of favorite to least favorite is 1) Shannon and Kanon as separate people who have some mundane reason they can't both be with their loved one. (though I'll admit I can't think of any such reason) 2) Actress!Yasu 3) The fantasy explanation we were given for the love dual. (this would be #2 if it wasn't for the fact it ignores the fact they had gotten over their furniture complexes two episodes earlier.) 4)Multiple!Yasu (since as other people have mentioned it doesn't really work that way at all). Before, Actress!Yasu was at the bottom, but otherwise the order was the same. |
2011-05-01, 01:59 | Link #22711 |
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I think he meant having Yasu being the culprit is as much of a lie as magic being the method of murder.
But, either way, I think it's rather clear Yasu is the culprit in the forgeries. Also, given the info in the forgeries along with the events in EP7 and EP8, I wouldn't be surprised if she was part of the murders in R-Prime, even if she was being forced into it.
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2011-05-01, 03:08 | Link #22712 | |
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I think that night when he saw Ikuko reading up on the Rokkenjima Incident and it was said that he regained his memories of who he was and I'm thinking that he regained all of Battler's memories. I don't remember that he continued to recover more over time or something, but I may have missed that. It's just important to note that what Beatrice thinks of Battler's sin, may not have actually occurred. (i.e. if the sin is about Battler forgetting, he may not have actually forgot) And also the events of Rokkenjima may have wildly deviated from Beatrice's original plans because of this. Besides the big explosion at the end, of course. This is all because the real Battler-Prime may have deviated wildly from Beatrice/Yasu/Shannon's impressions of him (mostly because of George's manipulations as-seen-in-Episode-7.) What she did didn't need to amount to murder, but in whatever she did (i.e., most likely the Epitaph Game), if Battler came back and said all the right words it could've literally taken the wind out of her anger sails. The Epitaph Game could've not even been run properly too and was aborted on the first twilight, who knows. Of course that wouldn't have stopped all sorts of craziness from happening, as seen in Lion's world, at least according to Tooya -> Bernkastel. Basically according to Tooya, he knew that even if you totally removed Yasu and her plans from the equation (resulting in Lion), that there would still be a massacre (although probably a more brutal obvious one). By the way, it seems it's useful to take what the characters say in EP3-7 or 8 about the truth of the situation and view it as a hint that Tooya is giving through his story. Because ultimately it's coming from his/Battler's brain. Because if Bernkastel said that the murders would still happen, it's possible that Tooya/Battler knew enough about the murders to say it would happen. Mouth pieces of the author, essentially. So what other things would become enlightening once you realize it's actually Tooya/Battler saying them? It just seems that Battler ended up knowing a LOT of stuff after all... maybe a lot of it from before the incident... Speaking of which, how did Ikuko 'read up' on the news on her computer circa late 80's? ... what, was there a specialty news modem-dialed BBS in Japan or something? |
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2011-05-01, 06:37 | Link #22714 | |
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Speaking of which, I thought it was interesting that Ange's fate is treated kind of like a small cat box. EP4: She jumps off the skyscraper, and then immediately departs on a secret trip under a false name. On the trip, she only interacts with people who have some reason to say "no, I never met with her," and then eventually vanishes on Rokkenjima. EP6: Same as EP4, now with a hypothetical meeting with a secretive author added in. EP8 trick end: Vanishes on Rokkenjima after committing several murders. EP8 magic end: Doesn't jump from the skyscraper, but still vanishes immediately afterward, leaving all her money to Okonogi. The common factors are that, to the outside world, Ange always vanishes from the skyscraper, and evidently, Okonogi always ends up in control of her money. Perhaps all of the forgeries starting with EP4 were actually written after she inexplicably vanished?
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2011-05-01, 09:14 | Link #22715 | |
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Still, i find the idea of "Murder happens, even if Yasu were, hypothetically, to have done NOTHING AT ALL" to be ridiculous. Even now, I'm really back and forth on how culpable I consider Yasu in R-Prime, but Bernkastel's situation where Kyrie goes trigger happy in Lion's world is SO full of plot holes it's impossible for me to seriously consider. |
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2011-05-01, 13:15 | Link #22716 | |
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2011-05-01, 15:01 | Link #22717 | ||
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By the way, if you use this kind of thinking you could sort of determine which characters were based off of Rokkenjima Prime people and which were 'invented.' (Not counting Meta-world and Fantasy characters, of course...) For example: Amakusa Juuza - probably 'invented' by Tooya since his fate is variable Furudo Erika - based off of a Rokkenjima Prime person to justify her introduction, but perhaps the original absolutely did not resemble the Erika in the story, both in looks, age and personality? Hm... that's all I could think of. A surprisingly short list. 8) Quote:
But what I'm getting at is that this is kind of a continuation of the Author Theory, which states that the Authors are trying to tell us things about the truth they know of Rokkenjima. Prior to EP8, I think a lot of us mistrusted Hachijou Tooya because she seemed to be a sexy, yet devious evil author. :3 But now that we know it's Ex-Battler, maybe we can trust what EP3-7 or 8 tells us, similar to how we were investigating what Beatrice/Yasu was trying to tell us through EP1-2. So in that sense, yes, Tooya was portraying a messed up story with Bernkastel trolling us at times, but maybe the idea that the murder still happens was something he knew about the situation and was able to say it through the character of Bernkastel.... ? And so, what else has Tooya hinted in the story that we were discounting because it came through one of the 'villains' or something? Etc., etc. I guess sorting this out is no mean feat though... |
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2011-05-02, 08:16 | Link #22718 | |
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I think it's clear that certain public details are completely invariable. All 1998 stories say Eva survived, for example; this appears to be as public a detail as who traveled to the Rokkenjima Conference in '86. The question then of the future scenes (such as any 1998 or the later-still epilogue) is what information was public going forward, and whether things like the epilogue or Ange's Sakutaro stories are known to have been created. Without anchoring details, anything could be a forgery (even Battler's survival could itself be as much a forgery as anything). In theory, anything held out as "public information" could be taken as true... however... A problem here, perhaps, is that in the "Ange's last public detail is when she was on the skyscraper" story, some additional details have to be known. The only way it would be public knowledge that she'd done that is that the bodyguards who chased after her reported it, and if they did, they must also have known whether she did or did not jump. Okonogi insinuated in ep4 that her miraculous survival was well-known, which if a forgery seems like it would directly contradict known events in 1998; a more likely outcome, that she didn't jump and disappeared after returning to Okonogi's custody, makes for less obvious fragment branch-offs, as what would have happened thereafter would not be easy to publically ascertain. In other words, calling ep4 and all ep8 endings forgeries means either that public information is unreliable (in which case how can we guess anything at all about R-Prime) or at least one of the 1998 forgeries flatly contradicts public knowledge (i.e. Ange is known not to have jumped in 1998 -> ep4 forgery contradicts something known to the public to be untrue in its narrative). This is different from the Erika thing because Erika's fate is not known subsequent to the last node of public information about her (if there was any in the first place). The other resolution would be that the skyscraper story is itself a forgery and Ange disappeared before that, though that doesn't get us around the notion that the public might have heard about her jump which would not have been the case in any forgery where she doesn't do that.
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