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Old 2011-05-18, 09:55   Link #10461
NightGale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
1. HR and IB are also defined as "The Right Hand That Creates All Miracles" and "The Right Hand That Destroys All Miracles", respectively.
Those are quite grandiose titles that could be interpreted in many ways, i mean apart from defeating any enemy it recognizes, the HR hasnīt really done anything miraculous... allowing a human to use angelic spells may be considered as such, but think about it... they were only the "necessary" weapons to destroy his enemies, if thatīs the case a power(IB) thatīs capable of matching a negating the HR, would also be a "Creator of Miracles" since in principle itīs doing the same, is just that it only affects things that are mystical or supernatural in nature and in this specialty even exceeds HR, while HR looking for "versatility", can match any nature of power while being weaker than IB in a pure mystical battle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
2. Both of them, ironically, have been stated to be infantile. HR can't be used at full power baring special circumstance, and IB hasn't spread to Touma's entire body yet. For HR, at least, it shouldn't matter whether they've been lost to human history. HR is a divine power, so it's probably still capable of such feats. Fiamma himself either doesn't know about them or doesn't know how to unlock them.
It is said that a certain level of "skills" are passed down on the genes from parents to children, and that is what we call "talented people"; but, even if you have a talent for something if you never had tried you canīt know you have it, therefore itīs impossible to use it, and when you yourself have children, they may also inherit that talent, but since it weakened in you(since you yourself didnīt used it), it may only be at the level of "good at something". You may argue that since they are divine in nature(at least HR), they may never completely died out, but we and Fiamma of course, canīt be sure since he has never used them nor does he know of their existence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flere821 View Post
About the Michael and Lucifer thing, the 'Right Seat' is merely symbolism IIRC in ToaruVerse. Seen as the equal of the person who you are sitting on the right side of, but not necessarily EXACTLY equal. So even if Michael defeated Lucifer, there could still be a gap between Michael and God.
Which is exactly what i mean when i said that maybe the full extent of IB power was something like "Administrative Rights" in computers(Letīs set aside the fact that a human brain is still the most powerful processor in existence...), this "power" in a computer world, gives you the ability to "negate" and "manipulate", every "rule" set by the "former/creator god"(the PC in this example); so, even without being capable enough of reproducing those rules from scratch(not many people can boost of being able to do a 10 digit calculation in a few seconds mentally...), it would make you equal if not more powerful than the "original god". HR is more like the ultimate antivirus capable of erasing whatever threat it deems as such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
But if that were the case, then why would God allow a being inferior to him (Michael) to sit to his right, rather than an actual equal (Son of God)?
Exactly what i mean,xD. They may not truly have the same power, but at the very least Michael must have a sword or a shield, that can help him match his creator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
What power of Holy Right posses is a completely different matter from whether Fiamma is a proper host to unleash its power.
Also, it was never an assumption on whether Fiamma has enough power to save the world and become the Son of God. Whether Fiamma is aware of the amount of the power he possses is another matter.
Aleister himself has confirmed that Fiamma has the power and methodology in achieving his goal. The only problem is that he applied his power and methods under the Aeon of Osiris that lead to his failure.
The quality of Holy Right's power is indisputable, what we should discuss is whether such power has been applied by the right Aeon.
From Aleister's point of view, interpreting the Right Hand Power with Aeon of Osiris is a mistake in itself, thus making any Christian interpretation incorrect when applying it to Holy Right. And that is Fiamma's only mistake.
Which could also be interpreted as:
-The HR just like the IB, are not originally from the Aeon of Osiris(and Christianity for that matter).
-The HR is the pinnacle of the Aeon of Osiris and surpass it to the point of either writing its own rules or being controlled by another format of rules(Aeon of Horus), while still maintaining basic compatibility since it was originally created in the format of the Aeon of Osiris.
Since at the very least there is a level of compatibility where the knowledge of Index can provide it power it may be the latter(obviously this isnīt the case for IB, since Index canīt truly make anything of it with her wisdom).
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Old 2011-05-18, 11:03   Link #10462
IppoTsuko
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Third Right hand could be "Right Hand that changes Miracle."
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Old 2011-05-18, 11:38   Link #10463
~Greed~
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Originally Posted by apsody243 View Post
And in the next volume we find out that Fiamma of the Right is Touya's illegitimate child and Touma's long lost brother.

Sorry couldn't resist
Fiamma is like a hundred years old though lol. He was the pope's teacher, and the pope is like 60.
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Old 2011-05-18, 14:00   Link #10464
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by ~Greed~ View Post
Fiamma is like a hundred years old though lol. He was the pope's teacher, and the pope is like 60.
No, the novels says Fiamma is his friend, not his teacher.
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Old 2011-05-18, 14:48   Link #10465
tsunade666
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^ more like his adviser.
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Old 2011-05-18, 16:16   Link #10466
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Since we have come to this again, first, let us clarify the Aeons. These do not refer to the gods themselves. According to the real world Aleister Crowley, these are somewhat like eras of spiritual belief or, as he puts it, "magical and religious expression":
  • Aeon of Isis - characterized by pagan worship (worship of Mother Nature under many names and forms).
  • Aeon of Osiris - characterized by self-sacrifice, and the worship or existence of the formula of a Dying God. The primary faith here is Christianity and other related religions, or, as Kamachi puts it, the Religion of the Cross.
  • Aeon of Horus - characterized by self-realization and individuality. As I see it, worship of a deity is abolished here as the individual turns to the self for power or answers to questions. Kamachi plays this as the age of the dominance of Science, or the age of Atheism. The Age of Aquarius is also closely related to this.

Also, we need to stop applying Christian terms to the Imagine Breaker, since it has already been clearly stated that what it is and what it is sealing transcends the outdated concepts of the Aeon of Osiris. Speculation on it should at least be based on Crowley's teachings and Thelema. Better yet if you have access to the Book of the Law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
So basically Aleister is trying to completely change the world by destroying magic and bringing forth something else, perhaps even beyond science?
What Fiamma was trying to do was very simple: Save the world in one fell swoop by converting it to Heaven, or at least part of it. The way I see it, it's like the Second Coming, since he was literally cleansing the world and making it anew, and somehow saving it in the process. He was also trying to bring out the enemy that must be defeated, an existence whose defeat would either require or result in a complete rewrite of the world. This event is similar to the battle at the end of times. There's also the Star of Bethlehem which heralds the arrival of the Son of God. All these tell us that Fiamma was strictly using the methods of Christianity in achieving his goal.

On the other hand, Aleister Crowley's plan is to transform the world into his own Artificial Heaven, which will then give him power over it as its god of sorts. Most likely, his ulterior motive here is to get a hold of the workings of the secret chiefs and possibly even control them too. And perhaps even beyond that -- as Science is the endless pursuit of knowledge, then Aleister's goal should be inherently unreachable. And given this goal/philosophy, I wonder what his magic name was?

These two plans are similar in that they involve a change in the mechanism of the world as a whole. The methods are also largely the same, as Aleister pointed out. The only differences lie in the format used and the handling of the power of the Right Hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NightGale View Post
apart from defeating any enemy it recognizes, the HR hasnīt really done anything miraculous
Any miracle can be simplified into the defeat of a certain enemy. Extreme luck? Defeat of probability. Cure-all and immortality? Defeat of death and decay. Omnipresence? Defeat of distance (semi). Omniscience? Defeat of uncertainty. Omnipotence? Self-explanatory. Even the descriptions of the Holy Right sound miraculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NightGale View Post
about talent
That's not how genes work. Genes don't get weakened or whatnot. A dominant gene simply gets expressed, and recessive genes get repressed when paired with a dominant one. Sometimes, certain genes undergo mutations (these occur randomly) that, if beneficial to the organism's survival, will have a high likelihood of getting passed on to the next generation and further replicated. These are called adaptations, and are the driving force of evolution. The talent you're talking about here are simply certain adaptations that your ancestors have taken. Honing one's talent in this sense has absolutely nothing to do with genetics or evolution. Consider the following: you are born into a relatively tall family with strong legs. These physical traits naturally give you advantages in certain sports. Now, even if you don't engage in such sports, these traits will still be passed onto your offspring, and at the same level, provided that your mate doesn't carry genes that override or conflict with your helpful genes. Thus, if your offspring decides to pursue those certain sports, the talent will still be there and will not be diminished even in the slightest.

The Holy Right and IB are not in the human genome. You don't and can't breed these powers. You don't and can't get them through random mutations either. The Holy Right was given to Fiamma and to Fiamma alone. The same is the case with IB. Both are unique powers. Before Fiamma and Touma, there might have been bearers of their respective powers, but they most certainly were not part of their lineage. This is similar to the birth of a Saint or Gemstone: totally random (otherwise, there might have been groups breeding both Saints and Gemstones, resulting in more than 20 and ~50 of them in the world, respectively).


Oh, and it looks like Volume 18 was just updated. Chapter 7 is done. Godspeed, js06.
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Old 2011-05-18, 16:37   Link #10467
Miraluka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
And given this goal/philosophy, I wonder what his magic name was?
In real life he was called "the beast" and in the novels he compares himself to an angry beast.
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Last edited by Miraluka; 2011-05-18 at 17:15.
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Old 2011-05-18, 17:07   Link #10468
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Age of Aquarius? Isn't Touma an Aquarius?
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Old 2011-05-18, 17:31   Link #10469
NightGale
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Spoiler:

Donīt know where to start on this one... Youīre correct and all but one account, genes do work like that. Just like you said, thatīs the principle of evolution: "adaptation", while it does take quite a few generations for a significant change to occur on the gene pool it does not mean that itīs random, in fact thereīs not a single thing in the human reproduction that can be truly called random. Nature has put thousand of mechanism that works like the gears of a clock in order to choose the best of the best and cut off whatīs unneeded (the thing we call random is that when the final stage of comes only the best of the best is left, so you might as well throw a coin, the one chosen wonīt truly change the final result).
When i said "weakened" i meant something simple: if it is true that those characteristics are simply "not expressed" and the genes "not lost"; itīs also true that they donīt simply "express" themselves at need, they are "stored" in the huge vault that is called "Human Genome", a meticulous process that takes quite a few hundred of years to do or reverse. I understand all that and just used the process in a figurative sense to explain my point, itīs true that disregarding time may have been too much of a stretch but well...

And to the point, what i meant with that is something quite simple: practices and knowledge that have become obsolete or have been simplified, are either lost or replaced. In Toaru, the Queen of the Adriatic Sea canīt be replicated, since the rituals required for itīs creation have been either erased or sealed little by little, just like that itīs possible(more than that but...), that many of the "feats of the right hand" had been lost to time and history. Someone said that regardless of them being known or not by Fiamma, he could use them since theyīre part of the power that makes the HR, but you canīt drive a train without knowledge and you certainly canīt just say that itīs a "miracle" and thatīs why it worked perfectly.
In this series magic is not quite so different from science, both heavily rely on experimentation and fine details to produce results; since thatīs the case, although the HR does most of the work, if Fiamma doesnīt have some control over it it may explode in his face, so he wonīt risk it just by trying to imitate a random legend.
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Old 2011-05-18, 18:31   Link #10470
ellifeedn
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@ NightGale: You might want to check out this link, though take it with a grain of salt.
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Old 2011-05-18, 19:04   Link #10471
NightGale
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@ NightGale: You might want to check out this link, though take it with a grain of salt.
Ugg... i feel like i somehow lost something as a human or maybe is just trauma because thatīs easy to imagine...

Edit: ...well i have had a bit of time of letting it sit in me, what you wanted to show was something along the lines of "though itīs best if you take it with a grain of salt, this is exactly what youīre talking about, genes arenīt lost no matter how much time passes..."?

Last edited by NightGale; 2011-05-18 at 21:30.
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Old 2011-05-18, 21:42   Link #10472
Miraluka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ellifeedn View Post
@ NightGale: You might want to check out this link, though take it with a grain of salt.
Thats nothing in comparison to Mr.Kyon fics and posts so, my mind is unscatched *puts on black glasses* .


Badass translater updated Chapter 8, part 1: Union Jack.

P.S.: Once again comes to my not-so-sane-mind memories about the times when there where crack pairing stories between KL and WO ....
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Old 2011-05-18, 22:03   Link #10473
Kuroi Hadou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
Once again comes to my not-so-sane-mind memories about the times when there where crack pairing stories between KL and WO ....
That's boring. Now we can have WO being the nervous virgin and PV being the aggressive, dogged pursuer.
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Old 2011-05-18, 22:09   Link #10474
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
That's boring. Now we can have WO being the nervous virgin and PV being the aggressive, dogged pursuer.
There was a long monochrome comic about that on pixiv (or was another website?), meh I'm but too lazy to search, it was priceless with "Its time show you how benevolent can I be, baka mercenary, lick my feets, now!" .
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Old 2011-05-18, 22:26   Link #10475
shmaster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightGale View Post
Someone said that regardless of them being known or not by Fiamma, he could use them since theyīre part of the power that makes the HR, but you canīt drive a train without knowledge and you certainly canīt just say that itīs a "miracle" and thatīs why it worked perfectly.
In this series magic is not quite so different from science, both heavily rely on experimentation and fine details to produce results; since thatīs the case, although the HR does most of the work, if Fiamma doesnīt have some control over it it may explode in his face, so he wonīt risk it just by trying to imitate a random legend.
But Holy Right is automatic. Fiamma chose a target, and the Holy Right does what it has to do to overcome it. Fiamma doesn't have to pick a certain feat to be performed. The key is what Fiamma is targeting. He needs a proper enemy to provoke a proper response from Holy Right.
In using Holy Right, it is more important to know about who are fighting against rather than Holy Right itself.
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Old 2011-05-18, 23:44   Link #10476
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Okay, I figured this is the best place to ask.

According to this post, there was a supposed talk between Touma and Ruiko. Can anyone give me some info on this?
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Old 2011-05-18, 23:55   Link #10477
tsunade666
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Nope, I haven't heard or read about Saten even meeting up with Touma. So a talk between two is almost impossible.
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Old 2011-05-19, 03:56   Link #10478
Shadow5YA
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Has Saten even appeared outside of the Railgun series?
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Old 2011-05-19, 04:15   Link #10479
Kuroi Hadou
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Has Saten even appeared outside of the Railgun series?
Not that I know of. Well, she did have a cameo in one of the illustrations for Vol. 1 of NT, but that's the only time I've seen her outside of Railgun.
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Old 2011-05-19, 05:03   Link #10480
NightGale
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Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
Not that I know of. Well, she did have a cameo in one of the illustrations for Vol. 1 of NT, but that's the only time I've seen her outside of Railgun.
I remember reading somewhere that she was originally a Index character, but Kamachi couldnīt quite find a place for her or something... thereīs a character illustration in volume 1, that supposedly is her but then again, it just looks a bit like her or for that matter any other background character(that sounded more harsh than in my mind, but meh).
This one
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