2012-01-22, 07:39 | Link #27222 |
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I gathered Keriaku's theory is basically:
Fantasy can visibly exist on the gameboard until it is denied by anti-magic toxin. Most obviously magical things like demons and golden butterflies would be easily denied in front of Erika and immediately cease to exist from that point forward. The subtler fantasy of Shannon and Kanon existing together is able to stand as it doesn't obviously look like a fantasy. Until the trick is exposed, they are both able to visibly exist together. And the reason for not showing Shannon and Kanon together in front of Battler is either because he has Endless Nine that destroys even subtler fantasies, or that it was used in EP5 as a thing Beatrice could but wouldn't do, as she wanted to leave a hint to Battler. Is that a good general summary? |
2012-01-22, 08:40 | Link #27223 | |
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2012-01-22, 10:02 | Link #27224 | |
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In Ep 6 she also didn't have her piece check if Kanon entered in the room he was supposed to be closed in, merely demanded a red truth that, according to her, assured he was in. Note that Erika sealed the rooms but never checked who was inside directly and that's likely also because she was looking for a logic error, not for the culprit. So it's easy to assume that in the first game she played in, she never checked where the servants were, because she was aiming at framing Natsuhi, not one of the servants. Photographic memory is useful only if you look around. In a room where people are moving around and where she's staring at the cousins, talking with them in the moment where it's declared everyone is there, she didn't have a full visual of the room, nor she bothered to get one so it was easy to place Kanon or Shannon or both behind her without her caring she hadn't seen them both at the same time or that she might not have seen one of them enter in the room. What is much more illogic and should have drawn her attention is actually the scene with Kinzo's room. Everyone is in front of the door when they knock for Kinzo and Shannon and Kanon both speak more than once. Now, in the parlour is possible Erika wasn't checking who was there or what it was doing because busy in other things or because disinterested but HERE it's hard to assume one of the two remained out of her field of vision and there's definitely no time for one of them to change into the other's clothes. The same goes for when they managed to enter in Kinzo's room. Everyone is present (if one of the two was absent it would have looked rather odd thought it could be explained with a 'Kanon went to put away the ladder') and Shannon and Kanon again talk. If Bern, because at the moment it was Bern that was moving Erika, we never see Erika in the meta world, was listening/watching the story, she evidently wasn't doing it through the eyes of a reliable narrator but what's worst is that Erika will never go back and check that this part of the story either doesn't match with what she could remember (just Kanon or Shannon being present and not both) or it requires for both to have a body. So I think if we want to focus on how Erika never noticed Shannon and Kanon can't be present at the same time, we should check this scene, not the parlour one. Someone can come up with an explanation for it? One that's not Shannon and Kanon were two different people? And also... is this scene presented in the same way in the PS version? (with both Shannon and Kanon present and talking?) |
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2012-01-22, 10:26 | Link #27225 | |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
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The very same point why a lot of people don't like the whole shkanon thing (that and personality switch).
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2012-01-22, 11:09 | Link #27226 | ||
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Well, you don't need to convince me of this stuff, since I pretty much already agree with it all. I was just saying that, according to the "Erika never saw things from Piece!Erika's perspective in EP5" theory, Detective's Authority only became useful in one instance (cousin's room), and even then, she didn't make use of the privileges she had, so I still don't really like that theory. Quote:
The idea of Fantasy is that it's just a different process leading up to the same result. But if we say, here, that the result is "Erika talked to both Shannon and Kanon at once" then we get stuck. After all, the Fantasy itself cannot be the result; it never is. It's always just the process. Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if the result was actually something more vague like "Erika and the others investigated Kinzo's study." The Game Master is free to show us any process she wishes, which leads up to that result. Whether we believe it or not, is up to us. |
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2012-01-22, 12:36 | Link #27227 | ||
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My idea about Erika is that she's nothing else but Bern's Mary Sue (I wonder if she can also sing well). Someone who can do amazing things in her author's idea... though since her author is a poor writer, Erika ends up being poorly used. She doesn't use her amazing powers when it could be useful to use them, tries to twist the story for her own end and gives life to a poor story. Erika complained so much it was a third rated mystery but it wouldn't have been third rated if she had solved it properly. I guess also Erika exists to make fun of those who thought 'if I were in Battler's place I would have done better'. Bern places her in Battler's place to do better, gives her a certain inner knowledge of how things will work but still Erika fails badly and her superpowers sort of make her look like a parody of a detective instead than a realistic detective. So, maybe, the mere reason due to which she has superpowers (because DA is presented very much like one) is merely to make fun of them. Quote:
Erika has also an impressive hearing so, if they talked, she should have heard them, no way to turn around this. The only way to handle this is with a more or less ridicule solution. Servants generally are positioned behind the Ushiromiya. If you don't count Kanon and Shannon the group of people in front of Kinzo's room and in Kinzo's room was of ten people. If you remove Erika they're 9 and all taller than Erika. Assuming they all wanted to keep hidden the fact that Shannon and Kanon are the same person (and this is possible since Shannon was technically an ally of both Natsuhi & Eva's group) they merely took care to keep Shannon (or Kanon) always behind them. Due to this Erika wouldn't have noticed that just one of them was present, since both groups were adversaries but pursuing the same goal she might not have noticed suspicious that they all ended up covering Shannon and Kanon fron her sight and would have allowed Shannon to use both her and Kanon's voice. Erika is already targeting Natsuhi so she's not paying Shannon and Kanon any attention. Battler himself used in that scene the trick of the observer not being able to observe the room fully so the same trick can be used by Shannon and Kanon. The problem I have with this explanation however is that in real life you either need a dumb Erika or Houdini to make it work... though it might be a case of dumb Erika. When Battler jumped out of the window she didn't rush to look at how he was falling so she didn't saw how he solved the problem of jumping down but had to figure it out. Evidently Erika rarely check things with her eyes... Still I don't like the explanation at all. The whole thing feels forced... though the ShKannon feels forced as well so maybe it was bound to be. Anyone can offer something better? |
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2012-01-22, 13:23 | Link #27228 | ||
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Therefore, a miracle will not occur for him. So what this means is, is that Bern was completely pathetic in that scene. And as someone who was a big fan of Bern, I found this inexplicable patheticness to be quite troubling. I don't believe that Bern is pathetic. And, I also don't believe that Erika is. Actually, even if Erika did fail in the end in both EP5 and 6, some of the things she pulled off were simply amazing. Both Bern and Erika are very competent, but they have flaws that drag them down. I have no trouble accepting that. Certainly, they both do have flaws, like how Bern is only concerned with what outcome will be the most interesting, and how Erika has too much pride. However, I won't believe that they exist just to be your everyday cannon fodder antagonists, or even worse, that they're just there so that they can parody things and look stupid. Quote:
I'd just like to say that taking everything in Umineko at face value, is a huge error. You just can't do that, unless you want to look at it as a Fantasy-genre story. Well, actually, there's nothing wrong with looking at the story that way. You're free to believe it's Fantasy if you like. It's just that, from that very instant onwards, you'll no longer be able to reason about the various truths hidden within the story. As you say, it's theoretically possible to find a trick with the result of "Shannon and Kanon are both overheard by Erika while they're all in the same location." However, when it starts to get that ridiculous, I think we should look at it from a different angle. In other words, did that scene actually happen as it was told? It's well known that the Game Master can show us whatever they want. There are no restrictions on how ridiculous they can make it. In fact, the GM could have a witch tear Rokkenjima into two equal halves on a whim, with their bare hands, and it would be perfectly fine as long as there is nothing else in the story which require a Piece to interact with something or someone on the other side of the island. Actually, they could even get around that by having the witch put the two halves together again, or construct a huge bridge between the two halves with a snap of their fingers. Therefore, my theory is that what we saw, was at least partially fabricated by the GM. There is no need to explain why Erika was able to hear both of them if we question the idea that she ever did hear both of them. |
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2012-01-22, 15:32 | Link #27229 | ||
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I want to clear something up about Photographic memory. I think some of us on here are treating that as some kind of video recorder in Erika's head that records every single waking second and that she can play this back at will and check instantly. Eidetic memory doesn't work that way. In particular:
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I think the misconception comes from how other detectives like Sherlock Holmes say they have a total recall of the crime scene. This is because their interest lies in detective work and that they consciously turn it on. In fact, they have trained themselves to do so. Erika is most likely meaning this; that she can do what these other detectives do with their photographic memory. Sherlock Holmes has no chance of remember the chips and notches on the lamp post he hurries by on the way to the crime scene unless he thought it was interesting somehow. And Erika would not be able to use photographic memory for something like Shannon and Kanon unless she suspected it... which she did, later. Anyways, I think the real issue we all have around Shannon and Kanon is the idea that the detective was supposed to be the true observer for the reader and that this seems to be subverted by the EP5 scene. Quote:
In the final epilogue where they were discussing what happened to all the other meta characters, it felt like to me that they were finally done with playing villains. So I gave some bonus points to Bernkastel for playing her part nice. It's almost like she's a tsundere. 8) |
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2012-01-22, 15:44 | Link #27230 | |
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2012-01-22, 16:01 | Link #27231 | ||
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Oh yeah, about memory. There are only 6 people in the world with super-autobiographical memory, called Hyperthymesia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperthymesia This appears to be different than photographic memory, which is what Erika claims in that: Quote:
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Mind you, he never really connected the two series by other than suggestive hints. There was no Lambdadelta or Featherine in Higurashi to begin with. He's only ever just danced around this... 8) |
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2012-01-22, 16:28 | Link #27232 | ||||
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The process used by Bern to create Erika is way too close to the one used by many authors to create a Mary Sue. The goal Bern has clashes with the one of the game, like the stories that have a Mary Sue save the world in place of the hero, or marrying the hero in place of the hero's girlfriend (sometimes even turning straight an hero who previously had a boyfriend) or even changing completely the genre of the story. As a result Bern and Erika are the bad guys and are supposed to make stupid mistakes caused by their arrogance and lose. In short Ryukishi might have created a parallel between the usual bad guy that wants to destroy/rule the world and fanfiction writers that wants to twist a story for their own ends. This doesn't mean that Bern and Erika are poor characters. As far as bad guys go they are cool. The antagonist doesn't have to be unlikable or completely dense... even thought more often he never follows the rules a good evil overlord should follow. Quote:
As I see it the 'meta battle' is merely a fantasy representation of the intellectual duel going on. Each time there's a reasoning there's a bit of 'meta battle'. It looks like even a meta!Natsuhi had a brief apparition in the meta world and this because the whole battle in the 'real' world is likely between her and Erika, Beato being merely her own delusion. Battler wasn't supposed to join the meta battle. Beato gives us a fantasy explanation (he's a piece) but more likely because piece!Battler isn't supposed to be on Natsuhi's side so why should he try to help Beato? Although the fantasy scenes show piece!Beato, Yasu's creation, on Natsuhi's side, Yasu likely is aware that the siblings are working to corner Natsuhi. To hand the ring to Battler most likely Shannon or Kanon personally handed the envelope to the siblings and they also told them about the mysterious phone calls that are used to trick Natsuhi into going in Hideyoshi's room. The problem is that Erika, the detective, shouldn't be able to witness magic unless she's having a 'meta moment'. She's supposed to have an objective point of view. It's all fine and dandy when the magic scene takes place where Erika can't see. If the narrative says Battler saw a dragon showing up behind her the narrative is being subjective without violating Erika objectivity. She didn't see the dragon so the dragon could exist in the dark zone of magic (there's a similar scene in EP 5). As Beato said: Quote:
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In order to do so you should prove that she's not the detective in this game, however with the detective proclamation I fear this is impossible so you would create a logic error. So yes, it's stupid they spoke and yet she never noticed she couldn't see one of them but she has not the option to see them both without going 'meta'. |
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2012-01-22, 17:02 | Link #27234 | |
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Unless Erika really considered them like furnitures and never bothered to look at them... |
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2012-01-22, 17:20 | Link #27235 | ||||
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It's possible for the GM to make it look like a Piece is in a certain place when they're actually somewhere else, or nowhere at all. This is the very core of the Illusion of the Witch. So in other words, we've been given more than enough hints. What I'm saying, is that the entire scene is probably a heavily modified version of what actually happened. The fact that Lambda did what she did with the Parlor scene makes it obvious that she's more than willing to play "dirtier" tricks than Beatrice did in EP1-4. |
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2012-01-22, 17:47 | Link #27236 | ||
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However, Erika can definitely BE a tape recorder when she's interested. And she's definitely interested in murder mysteries despite calling this a 3rd rate mystery. (I guess he wants to prove herself regardless.) And so she demonstrates keen memory, especially with things like alibis. She didn't display any interest in Shannon or Kanon until EP6 though, so I don't assume it would have been turned on. At best, you could say, why wasn't Erika aware of the genre convention of cheating with twins or disguises; which is something she should have been looking for. That's one of the classic signs of bad detective mysteries, which she (and Dlanor) should've been aware of. I still chalk it up to Erika behaving more to frame Natsuhi, I think from unspoken agreement with Lambdadelta and Bernkastel. I'm not talking about the detective as observer point of view here though, which seems to be a separate problem. Quote:
Although, I view EP5, 6 and 7 as more anti-games. (EP8 too, technically.) EP5 was supposed to be a demonstration of a game without love so I expected all sorts of unsolvable weird stuff. EP6 seemed more like a demonstration of a game with two people at the wheel and the ability to retcon the hell out of it; not surprising the whole story ended up into the gutter. 8) EP7 feels more like a story where truth was presented, but only enough so that you get the wrong idea. And then it tacked on biased opinions as if they were fact; more for the people of Rokkenjima Prime, to convince them that Kyrie was a cold blooded killer. EP8 felt like a study on the pure puzzle aspects of a detective novel when you take away the literary parts. It felt further along on the spectrum than the first Van Dine novel, for example. Anyways, I only view EP1-4 as full detective mystery games and although EP5-6, as messed up as they were (they didn't even finish properly; how can you have a detective story that just stops in the middle... ) they did provid us with important clues/answers for EP1-4... Last edited by Kylon99; 2012-01-22 at 17:51. Reason: EDIT: Undoing my crimes against commas. |
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2012-01-22, 18:04 | Link #27237 | ||||
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This don't stop Erika from being an awesome character, she just have to play a... well, let's call it a 'bad role'? Well, I'm not really that much into TvTropes but the Evil Overlord list and the assorted lists that it inspired are something I love madly. Quote:
He can 'observe Shannon and Kanon at the same time' as long as he doesn't show them to Erika. The same goes for the others. Quote:
I think the thing can be read in a way that means 'the narrative MUST be honest about the detective: where he is, what he does, what he sees, what he hears, though the narrative can lie about everyone else'. In short, to follow your example, the subjective narrative can't lie about Erika being there... because it would create a clash with Erika needing to have an objective viewpoint. However, as long as Erika can't observe what the subjective narrative proposes because... let's say it's happening behind her, you can have all the magic scenes you want. At least this is how I interpret the 'objective viewpoint' of the detective. Funny enough saying there was no objective viewpoint in all EP 5 can also mean that Erika was also something that was made up and that she actually was never witnessed by anyone in Rokenjima... LOL, poor Erika, I've just denied her existence... ... and weren't there theories that assumed Erika never existed in Rokkenjima? Someone willing to refresh my memory? Quote:
Actually in some mysteries the culprit tries to cheat the detective in what he sees... the trick is that the detective never see something that's not true but, since the culprit implied the detective might have witnessed it, we believe he does. For example... let's say that the culprit must wear a costume with a cape to commit his crimes. So, to let the detective believe he's not the culprit he would say something along the line of 'look, there's a person wearing a cape escaping' and all the detective would see is a glimpse of a cape before it would disappear by his sight. We would assume the detective witnessed the criminal escaping but later the detective would say 'sorry, I only saw a cape, you tricked me into thinking the culprit was wearing it but (insert trick here). So the excuse you were with me when the criminal was escaping didn't work.' Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-01-22 at 18:22. |
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2012-01-22, 18:30 | Link #27238 | |||
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However, I think that a few Reds can deny this. Namely, As the detective, <Miss> Erika sealed all ENTRANCES. If Erika does not possess a body, she cannot perform such an action. Furthermore, if there is someone acting like Erika, then it follows that when they are treated as "Furudo Erika," their perspective must be objective, and it will amount to the same thing as her being there. |
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2012-01-22, 18:50 | Link #27239 | ||
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Otherwise all Ep 1-4 would have to do is saying that the scene was, for example, told by Maria's point of view (after all she's the 'author' of the message bottles). I personally prefer to think that there's another explanation for which Erika never noticed that Shannon and Kanon weren't there that 'the scene is under a subjective viewpoint and, due to this, Erika can see magic'... though the idea that Yasu is hidden behind the others and talk with two voices isn't really of my tastes... but yes, I guess it would have been odd for the readers if, in such a moment one of the two were to be absent so the trick is more for us than for Erika (who's busy framing Natsuhi and might have been so focused on it that she wouldn't notice an elephant entering in the room...) Quote:
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