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View Poll Results: Code Geass R2 Series Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 365 | 44.95% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 199 | 24.51% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 92 | 11.33% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 76 | 9.36% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 31 | 3.82% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 20 | 2.46% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 9 | 1.11% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 4 | 0.49% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 2 | 0.25% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 14 | 1.72% | |
Voters: 812. You may not vote on this poll |
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2011-10-21, 11:51 | Link #1681 | |
Philosophos Basileus
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Ohgi and Villetta are a bit frustrating, yeah. Neither of them really deserved what they got. Still, maybe they did that to further the Lelouch/Jesus comparison that they seemed to be invoking at the end - maybe he died for their sins. Alternatively, accepting karma was his and Suzaku's privilege, and they're the better people for it. Still, I fully understand your annoyance. Such blatant evasion of karma is always a bit grating, especially when the ending's trying to be a positive one. |
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2011-10-21, 11:55 | Link #1682 |
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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It was even worse when you consider people like Cornelia though.
That, and that Lelouch and Suzaku were doing worse things than they had been done beforehand. One does not atone by doing something worse when there are other options, and the outcome isn't foolproof to begin with. |
2011-10-21, 12:10 | Link #1683 |
Philosophos Basileus
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Eh... Cornelia I don't consider so bad, since she'd already lost Euphie at the end of season 1, and she doesn't really do much bad in R2. Plus she's not explicitly shown to have received anything in particular at the end, save the company of Guilford. Probably still less than she deserves, but not as egregious to my eyes as Ohgi and Villetta.
And see now, I really have yet to be convinced that there were other options to the Zero Requiem that were significantly less bloody. There were other options, yes, but ones that entailed fewer lives being shed? Most of the lives lost in the Zero Requiem were from the conflict with Schneizel, which would've happened anyway in all likelihood, even if Lelouch and Schneizel's respective lists of allies/minions were a bit different. Outside of that... yes there was bloodshed. It was immensely regrettable. More blood shed than any other route? I've yet to be convinced. By all means show me a plausible scenario where it wouldn't have happened, but I can't think of one myself. Besides that, I've explained on the other thread why I like the idea of the Zero Requiem, so I won't waste time (or rather, perhaps, any more time) repeating myself. |
2011-10-21, 12:32 | Link #1684 | ||
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2011-10-21, 13:09 | Link #1685 | |||||||
Philosophos Basileus
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All that said, I'm not saying she got her just desserts, I'm just saying I don't see her as as much of a Karma Houdini as Ohgi and Villetta. Still, maybe I should; I'm the one arguing that the Zero Requiem wasn't the epitome of evils, after all, and particularly if you put it all down to Lelouch's grief and desperation, Ohgi and Villetta are as responsible for that as anyone else. Quote:
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As for Schneizel breaking free of the Geass, now you're just grasping at straws. Lelouch's Geass is absolute; the series has made that quite plain. I suppose if you go by my theory that Code-bearers can negate Geass then Schneizel might, theoretically, be able to break free... but you've made it pretty plain you disagree with me on that. So I don't see how Schneizel could break free. And who knows, even if he did, would he necessarily cause trouble? I guess it depends on whether you see him as a well-intentioned extremist or as something unalike, such as a megalomaniac or a bored genius, but I don't honestly believe he'd jeopardise the peace his half-brother created and his other remaining half-siblings (well, Nunnally at the very least) are maintaining, just of the evulz. But, I guess if you think he would, and you think that Code-bearers can negate Geass, then that is a flaw in the plan. However, as far as the two of us are concerned, that goes against your assumptions about the universe. Quote:
As for how he persecuted the war against Schneizel: if he'd retained the Black Knights, they would have had to go down with him. Indeed, that's his essential reason for driving all of them away: he knows that anyone who sides with him will be ruined by it. Admittedly, Lloyd, Cécile and Nina were able to get away with it by claiming they'd been coerced, but they're squishy scientists; how could someone like Kallen have claimed the same thing (for that matter, on her part, would she even have wanted to)? How could an entire organisation have claimed it? As it is, the people who went down with Lelouch were: Suzaku (by dying to the world and becoming Zero), who was also accepting punishment, C.C., who's used to being a ghost anyway, Jeremiah, whose only purpose in life was to serve Lelouch loyally and was honoured to play that part through to the end no matter what the consequences, and all those who died in the conflict (regrettable but necessary sacrifices). Even the surviving soldiers of the Britannian army have the excuse that he brainwashed them (exactly how this would be handled is a little uncertain, particularly with regards as to whether the truth of the Geass would be revealed or not, but when every single surviving soldier in the Britannian army starts complaining about a massive blank during the entire war, it'd be a little hard to put down to some elaborate ruse that all of them have spontaneously concocted. Doubtless Lloyd and co., the brainy scientists, would come out with some excuse for the world). That's it. With regards to waiting for Schneizel to come out of the woodwork, what do you propose he have done instead? Wasted resources fruitlessly pursuing him? For fruitless it would've been; Schneizel's clever enough to not be found when he doesn't want to be. No, Lelouch knew Schneizel would have to come after him eventually, so he waited. That's just strategy. Quote:
I don't believe it was an arse-pull, certainly not to the degree you do. But let's just say it was somewhat unlikely that everything did turn out as neatly as it did, which I might be prepared to grant you even if I don't believe that the overall strategy was as flawed as you're making out. Does that discredit it as an ending? No, because it's message is one of hope. Hope is always a little unrealistic; that's in its definition. So in this case, a hopeful ending is going to paint things a little brighter than they perhaps are, or are most likely to be. But for me? That's fine. I like it all the same. Now, maybe you'd prefer a more cynical ending. That's also fine; that's your preference, your taste, and I'd be a hypocrite if I tried to change that. But I believe that a hopeful ending is more in suiting with Code Geass' bright, fabulous tone, for reasons I think I've explained. So that's why I like the ending whatever the case. Last edited by Yamiken; 2011-10-21 at 19:03. |
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2012-01-20, 17:52 | Link #1687 | |||||||||
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Ultimately, and I say this knowing full well of what he went through, suicide is a selfish solution, especially with what went down as a consequence, and with that in mind, his real method of penance would have been to actually be a good leader, and fulfill his contract with C. C., taking her immortality. That would have been a much better Pyrrhic Victory for Lelouch. Quote:
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2012-01-22, 22:49 | Link #1688 | ||||||||||
Philosophos Basileus
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In addition, what is present and immediate is, by the nature of human psychology, 'worth more', so to speak, than both memory of past experience and anticipation of future ones. So, the target Lelouch has to reach is further reduced. From both these points, I argue that, in lieu of any concrete evidence to the contrary, Lelouch was not, when the cold, stark facts are considered, as bad as his father. Quote:
Or, to put it in TV Tropes terms (and I believe you are a fellow troper?): war requires The Unfettered; peace, The Fettered. Lelouch is the former (or at any rate a lot closer to it), and it is my belief that he'd have difficulty transforming himself into the latter. Again: I'm not saying that Lelouch definitely would have made a bad peacetime leader. I'm just saying that he probably would have made a less than brilliant one. Quote:
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Moreover, I reiterate: where's the case that he would cause trouble even if he were to attain some limited freedom from the Geass? I myself always got the impression that Schneizel believed that what he was doing was right for the sake of brining peace to the world. Shown another path, would he necessarily destroy it for the sake of his ideology? Due to my reasoning in the previous paragraph, I consider this point mostly academic, but I feel it worth saying anyway. Quote:
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And I disagree that there would have been less conflict of the Good Leader route. You forget that the point of the Zero Requiem wasn't just defeating Schneizel; if that had been the case, then yes, you are in fact right, attempting to regain his former allies would have been more productive for that. The point was to remove everything and everyone that might cause future conflicts for the world, to as great a degree as is possible. Therefore, he gave the entire world something to hate equally, and in his short stint as world dictator would, I imagine, have done his best to reorganise things such that other potential incentives for war would be removed (decimating the Britannian aristocracy, for instance). For that reason, I disagree that the Good Leader path, even assuming he could have managed it competently, would have led to less conflict. Quote:
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And that's fair enough. I'm just saying, to me it doesn't ring disingenuous at all. Well, that and that other people, not necessarily you, do seem too cynical to ever like any ending more positive than more-bitter-than-sweet. But since that isn't you, it needn't occupy any great space in this debate. |
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2012-01-23, 14:18 | Link #1689 | ||||||||||
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Regardless of the net result between him and Charles, Lelouch could have instead pegged Charles, or Schneizel, as the target of hatred. Quote:
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2012-01-23, 22:36 | Link #1690 |
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Virginia
Age: 47
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Not to butt in, but your both forgetting the Jerimiah Gottwald had the Geass Canceler thanks to the General who over saw CC during S1, and could theoretically be found by Schnizel or one of his aids and either coerced or for Ed into removing the Geass put upon him by Lelouch.
Remember he freed Shirley from her Geass spell? |
2012-01-23, 22:39 | Link #1691 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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Which goes hand in hand with the main thrust of the ongoing discussion, if you're cynical enough about it, considering there's little or no new information being exchanged. Those who want to be pessimistic about the ending can do so, but it's also entirely possible to have a different interpretation of the same. |
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2012-02-02, 20:27 | Link #1694 | |
Ha ha ha ha ha...
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Right behind you.
Age: 35
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I was waiting for someone to finally mention Jeremiah. I didn't want to get involved in the debate so I just didn't post anything. But there's no way Code Bearers can undo Geass effects. They are simply immune to them. I don't claim to know anything about or even begin to understand the World of C, but never in the show did they suggest that Code Bearers had any control over others' powers once they bestowed them.
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2012-02-13, 14:27 | Link #1696 | |||||||||
Philosophos Basileus
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Before I do some more rebuttal, let me just make this comment: Code Geass is a very interesting show for a number of reasons, one of them being the way in which it deals with what tropers call the First Law of Metafictional Thermodynamics, which states that as more plot elements, such as major characters, are added to a story, the telling of that story must either slow in pace or reduce the focus on each individual element of its plot. Most stories deal with this either by regulating the number of major plot elements they deal with or letting their pace slow. Code Geass, on the other hand, introduces a whole load of plot elements but, rather than pacing, sacrifices focus.
What this means is that there is a lot of conservation of detail in Code Geass. What this in turn means is that, for a show that's not really trying to be deep or meaningful, there is a still a lot that is open to interpretation. But now, the pertinent point: what I'm trying to do here is not convert people to my interpretation of the series. That would be against my principles. What I'm trying to do is defend my interpretation of the series as consistent and reasonably probable. I'm not asking people to subscribe to it. I would, however, like it to be seen as plausible. (Well, that said, it's less that I care about what you all think, and more that I just enjoy the intellectual stimulation of a good debate. :P ) Please keep that in mind for what I say. I'm not saying any of this is the only way of reading the show. What I'm saying is that it's my way and that I think it makes sense. Now, with that out of the way, back into the fray. Quote:
Now, at this point, you may make the argument that, by the end, Schneizel probably could have fulfilled that role. I'm not actually entirely ready to disagree with that. But the counter-point I'd raise is this: the Zero Requiem was a plan formulated in the World of C, before Schneizel's true plan and intentions became apparent. However much Lelouch did know his brother's character, I think the full extent of his means and ambitions caught even him by some surprise. At any rate, there was no certainty. Lelouch couldn't afford to rely on Schneizel becoming enough of a demon to demonise in the way he needed to; the only person he could rely on to do that was himself. By the time it became evident that Schneizel could possibly fulfil that role, Lelouch was too committed; there would have been no point in trying to back out then. He had too much blood on his hands already. Better to finish the job himself; nothing to be gained from trying to foist it off onto Schneizel, who could anyway have yet pulled something clever and unexpected out of his sleeves to scupper everything. Quote:
Easily enough done with the Geass. Suzaku isn't a total idiot, at least not by the end of the series. Quote:
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To put it a slightly different way: what Lelouch managed was to surpass the rate at which his father committed atrocities, not the sum total; also, he spared no one, unlike his father who whatever else he did made life fairly sweet for the ethnic Britannians, and the aristocracy above all. Anyone in-universe (and not in on the plan) evaluating the characters of the two men would conclude that Emperor Lelouch is the worse, even if he didn't have nearly as long to do evil. But what you were trying to do was say that the sum total of what Lelouch did was worse than the sum total of what his father ever managed. I'm saying that that's mistaken. Or at least, in all likelihood mistaken. Quote:
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As did Lelouch. Quote:
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2012-02-16, 21:08 | Link #1697 | ||||||||||
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Besides, betting on humanity focusing their hatred on one thing or person is a sucker's bet. People are too fickle. Quote:
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2012-02-22, 18:50 | Link #1698 | ||||||||||
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Secondly, a lot of the vested interests that had previously motivated war were destroyed. The noble class of Britannia was decimated; the eunuchs of China had already been exterminated; other reforms, such as a more equitable distribution of sakuradite, were presumably implemented. More democracy and international collaboration meant greater barriers to war; this meant fewer incentives for it. And finally, there would have been a massive political impetus to create a lasting peace. Think the peace talks at Versailles after the First World War, except without a defeated nation for everyone to take kicks at and sow the seeds of the next war. "Never again" would have been the watchwords after the Zero Requiem, as they were there - and, I think, the factors which sabotaged the real-world postwar peace would not be present here - after all, the enemy is not a nation but a single person. Between all this, and the fact that people Lelouch knew and trusted (or had Geassed) to work towards his (actual) goals were now basically in charge of the world, I contend that the Zero Requiem, with admittedly a little luck (but when isn't luck present in fiction or outside it?), could well have worked. Quote:
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I apologise. That was absolutely not my intent. All I was trying to say was that I'm not looking to convert you to my way of thinking here, just to get you to accept the possibility of what I was saying. Well, that and to have a stimulating discussion, of course. Quote:
And no, I don't think it pretty safe to say that the destruction of the Zero Requiem exceeded the total destruction caused by his rebellion, not if the rebellion had been seen through to its end - which is what the Zero Requiem must be compared with, as simply saying, "The Zero Requiem killed more people than Lelouch did during his liberation of Japan and overthrow of the ancien régime in China" is fairly meaningless, as in the latter case there would still have been the long, hard slog of actually destroying Britannia to come. I've said why I don't think this is the case. As for your comment about everyone being fooled by Schneizel, I'm reminded of an exchange between Szilard Quates and his homunculus Ennis in Baccano!: "Ever since that incident with that young pup aboard the Advena Avis, I have made a point of never trusting anyone younger than myself." "But sir, from where you sit now... isn't everyone alive younger than you?" Schneizel's a clever bastard. Being fooled by him isn't very difficult, and is thus a poor benchmark for stupidity. Admittedly, I'll agree that Ohgi at least was rather too easily fooled, so that would be a flaw in the ending, but generally, I think they're a capable bunch. And they do now have Schneizel himself working with/for them. I wouldn't be too pessimistic if I were you. Quote:
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- He was able to deal with other threats to his regime. Principally, this meant the Britannian aristocracy, and in particular Bismarck's loyalists. Having to fight them at the same time as fighting Schenizel's forces would have made things more difficult for him, undoubtedly. - He was able to find Nina and develop the anti-FLEIJA weapon. This, may I remind you, was indispensable to his eventual victory. Whatever else might be the case, saying that Lelouch accomplished nothing of importance whilst waiting for Schneizel to show himself is wrong. Quote:
Nevertheless, the more important point is this: that is one possible interpretation of what happened. It is not something that is definitively set down in the source material. You're welcome to hold to that view if it's more pleasing to you, but I have a different one which I believe is just as valid. |
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2012-02-24, 00:14 | Link #1699 | ||||||||||
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And what I mean by you not following me is that again, I already KNOW he couldn't back-pedal, which is why he shouldn't have done what he did in the first place. Again, let me spell that out for you: had he not gone through with the Zero Requiem, he wouldn't have had any of that to keep him from backing up. Quote:
Point is, there will almost always be conflicts somewhere. Some greater than others, and some smaller. Quote:
Nina was found AFTER Lelouch was already declared Emperor, and was speed-developing the anti-FLEIJA while Damocles was nuke spamming from the sky. The point is, it was too little too late, and its success was largely reliant on luck. There's nothing to suggest he even had to wait for Schneizel to make his big entrance. Quote:
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2012-02-24, 15:25 | Link #1700 | |||||||||||
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Anyway, I'm not saying that after the Zero Requiem, everything was unicorns and rainbows. No one is, so far as I know; even Kallen's ending narration admits there are still big problems to sort out. What is being argued is that the Zero Requiem accomplished its stated goal of stopping the previously never-ending conflicts between superpowers which had marred the world. My comparison with Europe is perfectly valid; indeed, the world of Code Geass seems in many ways to resemble a scaled-up version of 19th-century/early-20th-century Europe. That too used to be a febrile bed of great powers constantly competing for resources and glory; now, a great war between any of them would be unthinkable. There is no reason why what worked for Europe could not work for the world in some form, either our world or the world of Code Geass. Quote:
My observations are thus: - Peacetime governance requires a drastically different set of skills and personality traits to wartime governance. - Many individuals undeniably skilled at the latter prove to be a lot less stellar at the former (this was the point of my Churchill comparison; it was one of personality archetypes, not of circumstances). - Lelouch, in my view, is likely to be in this category, for reasons I've waxed lyrical on already (in particular, to put it in terms of tropes, he's a shining example of The Unfettered, which I contend is a personality archetype ill-suited to the tasks required of successful peacetime governance). It doesn't matter how Churchill left office. I brought him up to demonstrate how a successful wartime leader can be a lot less brilliant during peacetime. Churchill was a wonderful leader during World War II, but his peacetime ministry some years later was at best less impressive, at worst plain mediocre. And that's only considering times when he held the top job itself; if one counts his disastrous tenure as Chancellor of the Exchequer during the 1920s (when, might I note, he was a lot closer in age to Lelouch), his peacetime record becomes a good deal more grim. Quote:
So why do you keep saying he'd make a good leader? Quote:
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Anyway, I'll concede that as far as the Black Knights go (or rather, Ohgi, Tohdoh and Tamaki), they held the idiot ball at least somewhat with regards to Schneizel's revelations. Nevertheless, it's called the idiot ball because it's an instance of people behaving uncharacteristically stupidly. The whole reason the entire affair was so egregious in the first place was because we expected better of all of them. The point is, therefore, that usually, they're not idiots. They're at least competent, even if they're no geniuses. And that's enough. Lelouch left things to them because he trusted their hearts to be in the right place, not because he thought they were the most brilliant administrators on the planet. Again, they have Schneizel for the canny politicking. All they need to do is not fuck up. I do believe that that is within their capability. I will concede on Ohgi, though. I have no idea how he wound up Prime Minister after the war. Still, in the defence of Lelouch and the plan, I don't think that was something he was specifically gunning for. Quote:
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Besides, this is a fictional world. It doesn't have to adhere to quite the same standards as the real world to be credible. Or, rather, so that it doesn't seem like I'm trying to move the goalposts: what standards the real world does adhere to are the subject of much philosophical debate and controversy. A fictional world, by contrast, adheres to a comparatively explicit set of standards, and these standards are allowed to be towards the optimistic end of the possible rang of standards applicable to the real world whilst still being 'realistic'. Of course, how far that acceptable range extends is a subjective matter, so there's only so far we can argue over it. Quote:
Sure, but when various explanations are all logically valid, it comes down to aesthetics to choose between them. Last edited by Yamiken; 2012-02-24 at 15:36. Reason: Correction of a couple of typos, clarification of one point. |
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