Sword Art Online - Episode 6 Discussion / Poll

[Utsuro no Hako]

Originally Posted by Trajan

Take "the guidebook" for example. As far as I can recall, it has never been mentioned in SAO again since Agil discussed it in episode 2. I would think that this "bible" would play a regular and important part in SAO, but it's never been mentioned again.

Why would the guidebook have any relevance once the players get beyond the highest floor cleared in the beta test?

A more troubling example comes from Episode 6, where we learn that if you are friends with someone you can see where they are located. This is immediately important to locating Yuuko. Oddly, this ability didn't seem to exist in Episode 3 when the Black Cats didn't know where Sachi went, which makes me think the author just needed something that would allow Kirito to know Yuuko's location and invented this ability for the sole purpose of driving the plot for this one story.

No actually

Spoiler for The side story Red Nosed Reindeer:

The author specifically mentioned the friend-finder ability in the Red Nosed Reindeer sidestory but noted that there are places where it doesn't work -- dungeons, underground, etc. The anime just skipped that explanation.

[willx]

Originally Posted by NoirX

Spoiler:

"cheh..." isn't only a reaction of fear, it could also be a reaction for someone troubled. And I think in this case it's the latter since even the 3 of them are considered to be very dangerous to be fought even 1 on 1 amongst the clearers, they must be thinking that it'll get messy even if they still can handle all of them

Spoiler for Light Novel Information about Kirito & PKers:

Actually, I think you're mistaken.. It's pretty clear that the front-line clearers are the highest level and most powerful players in the game. That includes the DDA armored tank that was about to be killed. Problem was he was paralyzed. Kirito is higher level than those PKers, which is why they said: "Even you can't take on the 3 of us right?"

In the later arcs, Kirito even states that he could defeat most of them easily at that point in time. The leader might be the only exception.

Originally Posted by NoirX

It took alot of time for the explanation because you read it. From those 15 minutes reading on LN, you can actually gain the same value of explanation from a 5 minutes explanation, you just think LN took alot of time because the brain proccess a read material longer than visual ones.

I read incredibly fast my friend.. Faster than any person on screen can speak. Specifically, they cut out an entire section of dialogue poking holes in Grimlock's excuses before he collapsed and admitted his guilt. So that's not right either.

Originally Posted by NoirX

It's partly because some people were actually thinking/hoping SAO is similar to .hack// that they were hoping for an action-driven plot, while if you read the introduction of SAO itself it clearly says that you are trapped in the game and if you die ingame, you die for real.

To be honest, I don't remember .hack//sign having that much action at all. Tsukasa was terrible at fighting and there was like.. no or limited actual magic showing up in that game, which was odd.. considering all the staff users and weak and frail characters going into melee combat..

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Trajan

With respect to to Chekhov's gun, my point is that many of the facts disclosed in SAO are immediately important to drive the plot of a specific episode, and then seem to never matter again, unlike a situation where a fact introduced several episodes prior takes on a new relevance in a later episode.

Take "the guidebook" for example. As far as I can recall, it has never been mentioned in SAO again since Agil discussed it in episode 2. I would think that this "bible" would play a regular and important part in SAO, but it's never been mentioned again.

Well, the guidebook was made with info from the beta. Which only went up 10 levels or so.

A more troubling example comes from Episode 6, where we learn that if you are friends with someone you can see where they are located. This is immediately important to locating Yuuko. Oddly, this ability didn't seem to exist in Episode 3 when the Black Cats didn't know where Sachi went, which makes me think the author just needed something that would allow Kirito to know Yuuko's location and invented this ability for the sole purpose of driving the plot for this one story.

Yeah. The anime didn't explain but, while you can locate your friends, if they don't want to be found, there are ways for them to hide.

Spoiler for novel RNR:

Sachi used some kind of invisibility cloak.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by willx

To be honest, I don't remember .hack//sign having that much action at all. Tsukasa was terrible at fighting and there was like.. no or limited actual magic showing up in that game, which was odd.. considering all the staff users and weak and frail characters going into melee combat..

I'm going to have to agree with this. While .hack//sign did captivat me with its music and overall character interactions there wasn't much going on. Also when we did get action it was very short lived.

[Trajan]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Yeah, I guess that's the difference; I quite like the story even the way it is now. Wouldn't bother me that much if it stayed this way to the end... but I understand and respect your different perspective.

(And to the point about elements being brought up in side stories that didn't matter in other side stories... yeah, I guess I can see that. Perhaps that does reflect the way the stories were originally written and wasn't translated to anime quite as well as it could have been. But I do suspect that all of the individual pieces will matter later in the story... but again, this is only my guess. Perhaps it too is because I know a larger story is coming.)

I guess my overall complaint is that the first episode highlighted this massiveness of Aincrad both in story and visual content (views of vistas, etc.), but then the following episodes quickly went very small-scale. I'm just looking forward to the world "opening up" again.

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

Why would the guidebook have any relevance once the players get beyond the highest floor cleared in the beta test?

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Well, the guidebook was made with info from the beta. Which only went up 10 levels or so.

From the anime, the way I understood the guidebook was that the Beta testers got together after SAO went live and created the guidebook to help the noobs. An in-game wiki, if you will. Regardless if I'm not mistaken, Aincrad does have newspapers, which would seem to serve the same function.

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

actually [the LN explains it]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yeah. The anime didn't explain but, [the LN explained it]

Of course, the problem with this is that as an anime-only viewer you don't know this, and you can only form your opinion from what the anime presents to you. If the LN explains it, that's great for the LN, but it really doesn't mean anything when criticizing the way the anime tells the story.

[NoirX]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

I'm going to have to agree with this. While .hack//sign did captivat me with its music and overall character interactions there wasn't much going on. Also when we did get action it was very short lived.

Their basic setting of most events happening is a game of action.Even if they have talks or alot of interactions, their basic settings is still action(I'm pointing out my point at the concept which makes people think that SAO is action-based anime). In SAO the fighting/action itself is a supplementary to the story.

[Adigard]

Originally Posted by Trajan

From the anime, the way I understood the guidebook was that the Beta testers got together after SAO went live and created the guidebook to help the noobs. An in-game wiki, if you will. Regardless if I'm not mistaken, Aincrad does have newspapers, which would seem to serve the same function.

Part of the problem I think we're having is... in the early portions the information from the beta would be super critical for... well... everyone. Considering how few people showed up for the first boss battle and how long it took to actually defeat the first boss.

Compare that to the current speed / pace, where we ~seem~ to be clearing a floor every (someone did the math) 9-10 days. The front liners no longer seem to care about the middle floor players. Remember none of the front line clearers (other than Kirito) seemed to care that the Titan's Hand guild was PK'ing mid-level player's. Kirito and Asuno were only involved with the Murder case because it happened (apparently) on the front-line floor.

As an aside, why does everyone scream for more front-line activity, but a two ep arc set on the front-lines get ignored? Do people really want to watch a bunch of MMO player's grind mobs?

After a year+ the number of mid-level player's joining the front line ranks is probably rather small. Large guilds probably support their own members (if such a thing happens, since our setting is from a solo perspective it's hard to know) and help their members advance to the front lines... but mid-level guilds with mid-level members probably have no real plans of pushing into the front-lines.

So the push to share minutiae with the playerbase as a whole seems... lacking? I'd imagine the newspaper was full of more "so and so did something cool" rather than a traveler's guide to the newest floors.

[NoirX]

Originally Posted by Adigard

Part of the problem I think we're having is... in the early portions the information from the beta would be super critical for... well... everyone. Considering how few people showed up for the first boss battle and how long it took to actually defeat the first boss.

Compare that to the current speed / pace, where we ~seem~ to be clearing a floor every (someone did the math) 9-10 days. The front liners no longer seem to care about the middle floor players. Remember none of the front line clearers (other than Kirito) seemed to care that the Titan's Hand guild was PK'ing mid-level player's. Kirito and Asuno were only involved with the Murder case because it happened (apparently) on the front-line floor.

As an aside, why does everyone scream for more front-line activity, but a two ep arc set on the front-lines get ignored? Do people really want to watch a bunch of MMO player's grind mobs?

After a year+ the number of mid-level player's joining the front line ranks is probably rather small. Large guilds probably support their own members (if such a thing happens, since our setting is from a solo perspective it's hard to know) and help their members advance to the front lines... but mid-level guilds with mid-level members probably have no real plans of pushing into the front-lines.

So the push to share minutiae with the playerbase as a whole seems... lacking? I'd imagine the newspaper was full of more "so and so did something cool" rather than a traveler's guide to the newest floors.

Murder's Case happens at mid-level floors(around 50ish I forgot where exactly). Also the newspapers are only consist of rumors from a player to another(mouth to mouth) that is gathered into a media page.

[Adigard]

Originally Posted by NoirX

Murder's Case happens at mid-level floors(around 50ish I forgot where exactly).

citation needed?

Just because it occurs on the 59th floor doesn't mean it's not the front lines...

[zaz122]

Originally Posted by Adigard

citation needed?

Just because it occurs on the 59th floor doesn't mean it's not the front lines...

It should be the front lines if we were to go by the rate of 10-15 days a floor. I guess that's why the author changed it from 57 (the novel) to 59 (the anime) to make it fit with the 10-15 day floor clearing rate.

[Utsuro no Hako]

Originally Posted by Trajan

From the anime, the way I understood the guidebook was that the Beta testers got together after SAO went live and created the guidebook to help the noobs. An in-game wiki, if you will. Regardless if I'm not mistaken, Aincrad does have newspapers, which would seem to serve the same function.

I'm sure the guide had some general n00b tips in it. But by episode 3 we're already a year into the game -- anyone who still needs the guide at that point is probably dead.

Of course, the problem with this is that as an anime-only viewer you don't know this, and you can only form your opinion from what the anime presents to you. If the LN explains it, that's great for the LN, but it really doesn't mean anything when criticizing the way the anime tells the story.

Except you didn't make a claim about the anime. You said, "[that] makes me think the author just needed something that would allow Kirito to know Yuuko's location and invented this ability for the sole purpose of driving the plot for this one story." That's a statement about the source material.

If you want to claim that within the anime this was a plot-hole, fine, but you can't make a claim about Kawahara making stuff up without thinking it through unless you've read the novels.

[NoirX]

Originally Posted by Adigard

citation needed?

Just because it occurs on the 59th floor doesn't mean it's not the front lines...

Indeed the front lines are at 59th floor at that time, but the case itself happens at 57th floor so no it's not in the front lines

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Adigard

Part of the problem I think we're having is... in the early portions the information from the beta would be super critical for... well... everyone. Considering how few people showed up for the first boss battle and how long it took to actually defeat the first boss.

Compare that to the current speed / pace, where we ~seem~ to be clearing a floor every (someone did the math) 9-10 days. The front liners no longer seem to care about the middle floor players. Remember none of the front line clearers (other than Kirito) seemed to care that the Titan's Hand guild was PK'ing mid-level player's. Kirito and Asuno were only involved with the Murder case because it happened (apparently) on the front-line floor.

It didn't, and it doesn't matter - it happened in a city, where it shouldn't be possible. That's what mattered to them, because it could affect Aincrad as a whole, including the front lines.

Worst case scenario: it's an ability to PK in town, but you can't do anything to the PKer because of the crime prevention code.

[Quadratic]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Yup, I agree. Some people were hoping for an action-driven plot, whereas instead we have a character-driven plot with action elements. It's still really "plot", just not the plot some where hoping for.

Yeah, I guess that's the difference; I quite like the story even the way it is now. Wouldn't bother me that much if it stayed this way to the end... but I understand and respect your different perspective.

(And to the point about elements being brought up in side stories that didn't matter in other side stories... yeah, I guess I can see that. Perhaps that does reflect the way the stories were originally written and wasn't translated to anime quite as well as it could have been. But I do suspect that all of the individual pieces will matter later in the story... but again, this is only my guess. Perhaps it too is because I know a larger story is coming.)

Please clarify how this show is considered character-driven? None of the main characters have changed at all (which is how I'd define character-driven).
If anything, this show is slice-of-life/random events in SAO.

I haven't read the novel, but if there is somehow some relevant point to all these side-stories (which people keep insisting on), it's that the dead will probably come back again, since death is the only common theme all of them and how there are ways to being back the dead (or come back as a ghost...?).

If beast tamers, loli fanserivce, exploitive PK mechanics, or PK guilds become relevant in how they beat the game, count me surprised!

[NoirX]

Originally Posted by Quadratic

Please clarify how this show is considered character-driven? None of the main characters have changed at all (which is how I'd define character-driven).
If anything, this show is slice-of-life/random events in SAO.

I haven't read the novel, but if there is somehow some relevant point to all these side-stories (which people keep insisting on), it's that the dead will probably come back again, since death is the only common theme all of them and how there are ways to being back the dead (or come back as a ghost...?).

If beast tamers, loli fanserivce, exploitive PK mechanics, or PK guilds become relevant in how they beat the game, count me surprised!

The story progresses from Kirito's point of view in addition to a third person point of view, it tells us about Kirito's personal experience which make it a character-driven

The SS have some relevance as the people that has interacted or helped by Kirito will show up again in later episodes

[Quadratic]

Originally Posted by NoirX

The story progresses from Kirito's point of view in addition to a third person point of view, it tells us about Kirito's personal experience which make it a character-driven

The SS have some relevance as the people that has interacted or helped by Kirito will show up again in later episodes

I consider the (main) story being about trying to win the game. Except for episode 1 & 2, the story has "progressed" off-screen, since ep 3 - 6 had nothing to do with being in the front line (except the intro of ep 4), which is where the story should be.

Also, I feel like a fool, but what does SS stand for? (EDIT: Side story?)

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by NoirX

The story progresses from Kirito's point of view in addition to a third person point of view, it tells us about Kirito's personal experience which make it a character-driven

Even if it takes a first person narrative, I think it's closer to be a plot-driven story rather than character-driven. Character-driven stories focus on the characters themselves and their inner-problems, with events unfolding because of the characters. Madoka and F/Zero is excellent recent example of this

So far, SAO's character developments focus around events. The characters are driven by the events or the plot.

[NoirX]

Originally Posted by Quadratic

I consider the (main) story being about trying to win the game. Except for episode 1 & 2, the story has "progressed" off-screen, since ep 3 - 6 had nothing to do with being in the front line (except the intro of ep 4), which is where the story should be.

Also, I feel like a fool, but what does SS stand for? (EDIT: Side story?)

Can't blame you for thinking like that since the timeline of events isn't mentioned on the anime. But since this anime is based on the LN version, the anime can't show anything which isn't shown on the LN as the main source itself. Also yah, SS is Side Story xD

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Even if it takes a first person narrative, I think it's closer to be a plot-driven story rather than character-driven. Character-driven stories focus on the characters themselves and their inner-problems, with events unfolding because of the characters. Madoka and F/Zero is excellent recent example of this

So far, SAO's character developments focus around events. The characters are driven by the events or the plot.

We get to see Kirito(as MC) inner problems in the case with Sachi. In the later episodes events will be folding because of Kirito's decision. At this point you may see it as a plot-driven, but when you see the full story as a whole it's clearly a character-driven one

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Quadratic

Please clarify how this show is considered character-driven? None of the main characters have changed at all (which is how I'd define character-driven).

Surely you jest. The entire story has been tracking Kirito's character development over the course of his progress in the game. We've seen him progress from a self-exiled loner to his first lasting friend, having gone through many trials along the way. We also track the story of Asuna, who started the story with not a clue of how MMORPGs worked, working her way up to a key leadership position in the frontlines, and then how Kirito started to win over her duty-driven heart.

They may not have totally revolutionized themselves over these six episodes, but I think they and their perspectives have changed a fair bit since day one. They have been developing the key characters while introducing us to various system and game mechanics that form the basis of this game.

Originally Posted by Quadratic

I haven't read the novel, but if there is somehow some relevant point to all these side-stories (which people keep insisting on), it's that the dead will probably come back again, since death is the only common theme all of them and how there are ways to being back the dead (or come back as a ghost...?).

If beast tamers, loli fanserivce, exploitive PK mechanics, or PK guilds become relevant in how they beat the game, count me surprised!

They have introduced dozens of systems and mechanics over these episodes that are all rather foundational to understanding the way the SAO game works. I should think that they will all continue to play a role in some capacity going forward, not to mention the friendship that was forged in this recent arc.

This is almost like some sort of nihilism: "it's all meaningless!" I have a bit more faith in the writers than you do, I guess.

Originally Posted by Quadratic

I consider the (main) story being about trying to win the game. Except for episode 1 & 2, the story has "progressed" off-screen, since ep 3 - 6 had nothing to do with being in the front line (except the intro of ep 4), which is where the story should be.

That's the plot premise, but I think the main story is whatever the anime shows us, and we can't really determine that until we see it play out. So far, at least, the anime hasn't suggested that the frontlines themselves are really the most important thing, but rather the impact on the characters of living in this "death game" world.

[Rakshasa]

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

I'm sure the guide had some general n00b tips in it. But by episode 3 we're already a year into the game -- anyone who still needs the guide at that point is probably dead.

They still need guides to each floor, to ensure people know what to expect else mid-level guys would be under the same dangers as frontliners. Except more, cause they wouldn't be as skilled at deducing what to do and not to do.

Much more likely is that since there's a gradient of players involved, the clearing groups would no doubt have friends, guild members, etc, that were almost ready but not quite. Information would easily be passed on and as it trickles down someone compiles guides for the masses.