Valvrave the Liberator - General Anime Discussion

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Not all criticism, at least not from what I've seen (I admit the thread's just too fast for me to keep up ). But it is grating to have people dismissing the show and calling it bad/badly written after 2 episodes, because 1) they're missing the point, 2) the show doesn't do what they expected/they'd prefer it to do, 3) "the studio/director/writer/lead seiyuu/music composer worked on a show that I didn't like."*

I hate that kind of assumption. "I don't see anything wrong with the show so that means there must be something wrong with the people who don't like it". The opinions of the people who hate this show are just as legitimate as your own. How can you tell they're missing the point? Isn't it natural to be disappointed if a show does something you find stupid (and therefore would have preferred they didn't do)? As for 3, that never happened as far as I can tell. Why would anybody even watch a show they're sure to hate from the get-go?

[Tokkan]

My main problem is the people decrying the show for being too much like "Guilty Crown" and then they refuse to elaborate why they think that.

I'm only mildly bothered by the people who don't appreciate the dramatic irony of Shoko still being alive and Haruto "resigning as a human" over nothing. It's completely fine that they don't like that because of it being cliché.

Also Kanon there are some crazy people out who do continue to watch shows they hate just so they can feel justified about trolling the people who actually like them.

[Myssa Rei]

I do think it's WAY too early to call this a trainwreck (usually we decide this when a 24-episode series hits at least five episodes), but I will admit that so far Valvrave has played many of the expected cliches straight.

Me? I'm waiting for when our singular Valrave becomes pluralized as hinted in the OP, and how those pilots (betting on the Princes) handle the hilarious TOS attached to them.

[Duo Maxwell]

Originally Posted by Kanon

The opinions of the people who hate this show are just as legitimate as your own. How can you tell they're missing the point? Isn't it natural to be disappointed if a show does something you find stupid (and therefore would have preferred they didn't do)?

Because from what I saw, people are dead set against the idea of "looking thing from different perspective". I acknowledged why they don't like something from this show, but I also point that there could be other things that the writer wants to tell us. The result? People think it's stupid because it's different from what they expected. instead of thinking "it could be something else".

And if you want to know why would anyone watch something they hate from the get-go, pay a visit to Gundam AGE forum.

[FiveOVER]

Honestly I am only coming down hard on the series because people are unfairly writing off all criticism of the show.

posted by Kirarakim

I don't see your point since there is a total of 107 posts criticizing and complaining on this show. To top it off, The complaints are only composed of the following:

Cliche, bad writing, asspulls, ridiculous, Guilty crown, Haruto's angst, Shoko's "revival".

It's getting really tiring when we already get your point (although not necessarily agreeing) and seeing it repeating 10 over times doesn't help.

[theflyingturkey]

Honestly I am only coming down hard on the series because people are unfairly writing off all criticism of the show.

*twitch*
I think you need to reread the thread. There are plenty of people that recognize the criticisms of this show.
Or do I have to look for the posts and quote them just to prove my point.

Just because this show isn't up to your standards doesn't mean that the people who defend this show are completely biased and irrational.

[FiveOVER]

Anyway, here is my more positive outlook on this show, and i sure hope you don't bash on me since I'm not forcing my opinions on you.

- Just shoko's death in and of itself affected the story in many ways and i think it's well contrived. ( move on if you already read )

It gives the mc a reason to fight. Unless you want reasons like "those are the bad guys", "I want to be a hero", "I have to save my friends", "I'm just following orders", "my body got controlled by some mystical power" which I have no qualms with at all, but you haters just have to call them cheapskate and dismiss them as silly. Sothe motive as revenge is definitely a hit.

Second, it gives the discontinuity when the students cheer for haruto's victory, while haruto laments her death. This nails down the idea that no one but haruto can understand his grief. Remember, robbing tears from the audience is clearly not the author's motive. His motive is to show us the isolation of those different/ gifted compared to others.

Third, her death was entirely the reason why haruto underwent such a drasic change in just the span of two episods. He was a pacifist, he experienced the reality of war, agreed with l-elf and admitted his mistake. He then understands the gravity of the situation in war. He knows its killed or be killed and didn't hesitate to kill the soldiers. He even learned how precious shoko is to him and adamant to go back to her even in tha hopeless situation.

Fourth, her death brought the chance for saki to act and established a prelude to a love triangle. If she weren't "dead" , saki probably will never have the chance to act on her feelings.

fifth, it gives us a chance to see our mc in dilemma while he deal with his identity crisis and his feelings for shoko. Only when he realized that shoko is alive that the impact of losing his humanity hit him. This give arise to more character developement and again the author tells you this is not your typical happy story.

sixth, this is my favourite point. This is when the story truly establishes that its a dark story through and through. The viewers realize that haruto just lost his humanity for nothing. Shoko was alive all along and he is being thrown into this unreasonable situation just because he acted rashly in he heat of the situation.


- Lots of surprises and unpredictibility:

There just too many surprises, like the T&Q for valvrave, Haruto's sudden revival, the body switching, L-11 pitiful predicament, Saki's feelings, Valvrave's 666 and the list goes on.

The author can do so many things with Haruto's body switching ability, making the story very unpredictable and i'm sure he knows that.

All these events lead to the interesting situation L-11 is in. I'm looking forward to seeing how he used his intelligence to escape and explain his situation to his comrades.


- The amount of details in this show is staggering

From the fact that there are multiple dyson spheres to the fact that the school was built three years ago to the interaction between L-elf and Haruto to L-elf mentioning Liserotte to the fact that there is a gap between the valvrave engine to commit "seppuku" and the list goes on.


- The main character is a person is someone who learns from his mistakes so expect a lot of change from throughout the show.

In a mere two episodes he transformed from a pacifist into a person who understand the reality of war and is willing to do anything for shoko. He also admits his mistakes to L-11.


- The cgi action scenes are amazing.

They managed to create tension and a sense of the battle field in all the action scenes. It is fast-paced and smooth and definitely a must-watch for those who love action.


- The mecha has a lot of detail.

Some may say it's too detailed but for me, that goes to show how dedicated the mecha design team was.


- This show is logical if you think deeper. There are few parts that are far-fetched but they are few and far between. Look at my post below for details.


- Most importantly, the show has lots of potential. There are so many plotlines the writer can explore depending on how he play his cards.


- Events are shocking and dramatic and what people call "over the top". This is actually a good point and i do not understand why someone would hate a show for it. We're not watching a documentary, we are watching fiction. I do not see the point in watching a show if there are no sense of escapism or even entertainment. We have plenty of realism in our lives already, why do we need to bring them into our entertainment as well? Anyway, it's depends on you to find what is entertaining and i have no right to interfere.

What I'm trying to say is majority of the people are watching shows to entertain themselves. As long as the turn of events are logical and have a good balance between dramatic and realism, and you get what the author is trying to convey, I don't see the point in hurting yourself trying to convince yourself that the show is not good simply because it has not enough realism. Imo, being open minded is a good thing and doing so is very important to finding your happiness in life.


Being adamant on your point is a good thing and i praise you for it. But don't you think being open minded about other's opinions and what the writer is trying to create to maximize your enjoyment is equally important?

[FiveOVER]

For those who thinks this show are illogical. Here's a Q&A session. You can contribute questions if you have any doubts. Depending on whether I have free time i will choose to update this post regularly.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

How could they build dyson spheres around the sun? they would need materials from the whole solar system!

Judging by the fact that there are multiple Dyson spheres, we can conclude that those are smaller, artificial stars.(it fits the definition)


How did L-11 and friends infiltrated JIOR so easily?

JIOR has held its peace and neutrality for a long time. Making them soft and unprepared. Remember, they don’t even have an army. You don’t expect students to suddenly pull out knives and guns.


Why is L-elf acting like an ass to Haruto?

He had a past which is yet to be revealed. Haruto’s pacifist attitude just hit him in the wrong way.


Why did Dorssia attacked the JIORs?

Probably because they found out about Valvrave?


“Why would someone put a secret military lab under a school? I can’t feel bad for all the students that died because they were standing over a legitimate military target.”(Phaetons_Folly)

That’s the only thing that didn’t make sense. Although I’m sure it will be explained at a later point of time, I’ll give a few of my hypothesis. The location. The school and lab are both located at the center of the dyson sphere, probably due to technical issues. Maybe for energy effeciency, larger space, launch location (it might not be just from the pool), logistics, and the list goes on. Seeing as valvrave seems to be a supernatural mecha, it might be related to the shrine in some way.
Another would be to mask its purpose. Surely a school would be the last place you would think of! Judging by the fact that none of the students are aware of it, the school have to be built after the lab. Somehow the information got leaked.
The students aren’t aware of this.
Judging from the reaction of the scientists, they do not even understand why they were being attacked. JIOR probably had peace for decades and become too accustomed to peace.


Why is the security around the Valvrave so weak?

The scientist was pretty confused why they were attacked in the first place. JIOR is too confident in its neutrality and saw no reason that they would be attacked. They were obviously wrong.


“One big problem I have with this show. How come the air in the city doesn’t get instantaneously sucked out when the shell separating it from space gets a giant hole blown in it?”(newnar)

The colony itself is pretty large compared to the hole, thus air won’t be drained out immediately. And when you build space colonies, the first thing to be incorporated is a temporary fix when a hole appear. There should be a patch that covers the hole automatically. Its not instant but works nontheless


“Another part that was pretty bad was when the guy was trying to activate the robot. There was a big screen in front of him with a big, bright and colorful YES button indicating the activation procedure. The guy, however, spent a lot of time trying EVERYTHING and did not press the god damn button until the very end. During this part I was: “WTF is he doing? Is this guy retard or what? I can see the stupid button from here and he can’t?””(André)

Hypothetically speaking, a war was shoved onto your face from nowhere, you just broke your arm from an explosion, your girlfriend just died instantaneously, you are full of anger, grief and a torrent of emotions, your heart beat is running berserk and you are breathing erratically from the adrenaline and exertion from running and climbing.
Now, you are in a cockpit of a god knows what weapon of mass destruction, faced with a mess load of controls. To top it off, a giant robot is smashing on your door, throwing you around the cockpit, accumulating more bruises. Now, how much different from haruto will you be acting I wonder. I don’t know about you, but I would be confused and wondering why is it asking me to give up my humanity. you are a machine right? stop throwing me stupid questions and move already!


How could a high school brat suddenly learn how to pilot the Valvrave? It does’t make any sense.

The valvrave gave Haruto his powers through that injection. It will be explained in detail later. I guess it depends on what you think is believable i guess?


Why did haruto have to bite L-11 of all things?

He has no other more effective weapons at hand. He is acting according to what is most effective in taking down the enemy.


How did a bunch of students managed to steal back the Valvrave?

Haruto gains L-11′s combat abilities when in his body. The Dorsia letting their guard down also helped.


How did a student managed to pilot a helicopter?

Yes, I agree that it’s pretty unbelievable here, but since the author played it off as a joke, I’m not sure what to think of it.


Why is the security around the Valvrave so weak?

The Dorssians got overconfident since they already subjugated the citizens and the security forces. JIOR does not have an army. They must have thought it was safe but in actual fact, not.


Why didn’t the dorssians just ship valvrave away?

Do they need to? Its already their territory.


Why is L-elf just standing there when he has a hostage?

L-elf has nowhere to go. “First, he has ALREADY killed Haruto before, only to find that not only did it have no effect but he was taken out of commission because of it and his body was used without his permission. He also has no idea what happened to him and what Haruto did to him. He doesn’t know what Haruto did or what the guy is, and the problem is neither does Haruto. He can’t go back and explain things to Dorssia until he HIMSELF can understand it. Or else, they’ll think he’s crazy or lying and lock him up or put him to death for treason.” (quote from Irenesharda)

Explaining his situation to his comrades is a lot harder and time consuming than you think. Especially when they are in a heated battle. The valvrave could have been destroyed at any moment. Killing all of them including himself. He had to act according to the highest chance of survival.


A single cruiser is enough to liberate Jior who had unconditionally surrendered at gunpoint?

It’s an entire fleet, babe.


How did shoko survive?

It might be a little bit of a stretch, but she could have jumped into the car through the window at the last moment when she saw the beam.
The beam was dulled by the dirt, thus resulting in a bury.Remember this a fictitious, linear beam and not an explosive. We can’t really claim to know its effects when we don’t know how it works.


Why didn’t shoko called all this time.

There’s nothing to say she wasn’t unconcious during that time. And enemies tend to jam signals during an invasion in sci-fi shows.


“Valvrave basically attaining God mode when its heat reaches 666… when for some reason it is just useless from 100-665. Just laughable.”(Kefkiroth)

Its not really that illogical since some engines works optimally at certain higher temperature ranges. We don’t even know how valvrave generator works yet.


Valvrave has to stab itself to gain a powerup, lol.

Its to bathe the blade in theat heated engine. Nothing more nothing less. The engines/generator is not harmed since there is a gap. Its true they are showing a seppuku motive here.


“Haruto’s inability to even pilot the valvrave suddenly turns into a top notch ability to dodge missiles in space all while talking on the phone, making an emotional confession?”(ftghb)

He’s a fast learner. End of story.


“DUDE/ the fact that he couldnt even operate it and then suddenly is engaging in highly militarized personel? Doesn’t that strike you odd in the LEAST bit?”(ftghb)

Valvrave is a lot more effecient and durable compared to your regular weapon. That’s that.


Haruto being immortal feels kinda cheap.

His immortality is pretty hax but we should wait and let the story explain his powers for us. Reserve your judgements until they reveal more. The immortality might have some conditions or limit to it.


Haruto is such a pussy for not confessing.

Too many events and changes happened to him in such a short time. Can you really blame him for not confessing when he became an immortal, body switching murderer?

“Perhaps because that route is the most sensible route if you think deeper about it? Before he and she were the same, classmates and human. Now the war has started, he has killed a bunch of people, is the only pilot that can possibly hold back the enemy, and most importantly he is no longer human. Can she take all these things in? He has not even confessed to her, much less going out with her for any period of time. Would telling her everything shock her too much? The thought of dating an immortal and having kids with him, with all the uncertainty and potential fear, may be too much to bear. Does he want to shock and hurt the person he loves so much? Would telling her he has no idea what’s going to happen help besides adding burden to her? How much can she accept him at this very messed-up state in this very messed-up circumstances when he may just go out to fight the enemy and may never come back? Perhaps it is better to let the beautiful memory in the past stay without it being tainted by the absurdity and cruelty the present is imposing? I am sure it must be a painful decision for him but at least he has the courage of not dragging her into his cruel fate. I would say this is an act of ultimate love and kindness instead of lameness or insensitivity. The best solution wold be for him to find a way to get himself out of the conundrum of this immortal status, but then there is the war that requires him to stay at that status… And so we’ve got what we’ve got for this episode.”(symbv)


Haruto’s reason for not confessing is so lame: “a monster does not have feelings”

Blame the subbers for that, not Haruto. Its a mistranslation. Translation from symbv:”I have turned into this monster…. I don’t have any right to confess my feeling to her any more.”



Phew, that took a life out of me. I sure hope i managed to answer some of your uncertainties and ground my point that Valvrave is not ridiculous.

[Triple_R]

To be fair, I'm largely with FiveOVER on his response to these various critique-based questions.

Besides, I think there's some things you just have to roll with in a mecha show. Complaining about teenage guys quickly mastering an uber-mecha is like comparing about metahumans wearing colorful spandex in superhero comics or complaining about young girls being extraordinarily good fighters in magical girl anime - It's a core genre convention. It's the bare minimum you should expect to have to suspend disbelief over.


I should make it clear that my criticisms of this show are largely taste-based, rather than a matter of picking at things like "This breaks the rules of physics" or "That's a horrible plot-hole". I think the narrative in this is reasonably realistic, given pertinent genre conventions.

I think that Code Geass is the best point of comparison to this show, at least so far.

[Terrestrial Dream]

I really don't think we should make any comparison yet, lets try to let the show be its own show.

[articuzwolf]

criticism is good, as long as its reasonable

and people preference is their prerogative really, can't do anything about it

anyway, I think it safe to assume that next episode we will have heroine transition from Shoko to the long haired girl (kinda forgot her name )

Shoko will have less screen time and MC will start growing affection towards that long haired girl

[theflyingturkey]

Originally Posted by articuzwolf

criticism is good, as long as its reasonable

and people preference is their prerogative really, can't do anything about it

anyway, I think it safe to assume that next episode we will have heroine transition from Shoko to the long haired girl (kinda forgot her name )

Shoko will have less screen time and MC will start growing affection towards that long haired girl

I hope you don't mind, but could you elaborate on why it is safe to assume that Shouko is gonna fall out of the spotlight? I haven't really seen anything implying that.

Her name is Rukino Saki btw.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by theflyingturkey

*twitch*
I think you need to reread the thread. There are plenty of people that recognize the criticisms of this show.
Or do I have to look for the posts and quote them just to prove my point.

Just because this show isn't up to your standards doesn't mean that the people who defend this show are completely biased and irrational.

Okay way to completely misread what I said. I never said you can't defend the actual show but when the defense comes down to

*Oh you are only criticizing because you just don't like it or it just didn't do what you wanted
*Or you are only criticizing because you wanted some grim dark show
*And you are just taking this show too seriously as that is some defense against all criticism.

Originally Posted by FiveOVER

posted by Kirarakim
Cliche, bad writing, asspulls, ridiculous, Guilty crown, Haruto's angst, Shoko's "revival".

If people think these things they are allowed to say it. If you don't agree then defend the show but I hope your defense is not going to consist of the above. Actually defend the show itself. People are just expressing their opinions good or bad.


It's the early part of the show and criticism is the most heavy in the early episodes.
Most people who genuinely hate the show will drop it.

As for myself personally I don't hate the show. I compared it to my feelings on Code Geass, which I also didn't think was all that well written and I made plenty of fun of BUT I STILL ENJOYED.

edit: How you defended the show in your post above. That is what I mean. I have no issues with that whether I agree or disagree.

[Duo Maxwell]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

*Oh you are only criticizing because you just don't like it or it just didn't do what you wanted

But it is. It's one thing to say you don't like the direction the show is heading, and the other is saying it's bad writing. Bad writing is when the writer doesn't know how to express what he's want in the medium. It's fine when you want to tell other how you don't like it. The only problem I have is people love to say it's bad writing when it clearly doesn't move the way they want, without even consider that's what the writer is aiming for.

Notice how such defenses you mentioned only appeared after people claimed the show is "bad writing"?

[articuzwolf]

Originally Posted by theflyingturkey

I hope you don't mind, but could you elaborate on why it is safe to assume that Shouko is gonna fall out of the spotlight? I haven't really seen anything implying that.

Her name is Rukino Saki btw.

ah thanks, because Saki doesn't have any place in either Haruto's heart or the show atm,
I found her as some random classmate, bouncing here and there, trying to get close to Haruto after Shoko's fake death...
not enough 'background' or 'development' or whatever you want to call it
and they need to change that condition if they want to use her as another heroine

but who knows, maybe Sunrise just want to use her as "long secret admirer of Haruto" without really having a chance against saki...
in non-adaptation show like this, your guess is as good as mine...
but usually that's (my prev post) happened if you want to map someone to become love interest of MC

[theflyingturkey]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Okay way to completely misread what I said. I never said you can't defend the actual show but when the defense comes down to

*Oh you are only criticizing because you just don't like it or it just didn't do what you wanted
*Or you are only criticizing because you wanted some grim dark show
*And you are just taking this show too seriously as that is some defense against all criticism.

I believe we are having some miscommunication here. Perhaps it was a poor choice of wording on my part. Allow me to reiterate my statement:

*Plenty of people in this thread did not dismiss legitimate criticisms of this show.
*Plenty of people in this thread did not make shallow statements to defend the show.
*Plenty of people in this thread have defended the show using legitimate, well thought arguments.

Here are some examples:

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Speaking for myself, I have seen so many anime and the associated Clichés that the Clichés themselves disappeared; I no longer SEE the things that are similar between one anime and another. They are now just background noise. I am not bothered by what I no longer detect.

Instead, when I see VVV, I only see what they did that was different. A Japanese proxy that is actually officially Japanese, a mystery mecha show where the studio aim for surprises, and enemy grunts with working weapons and armour.

It's one's choice how to enjoy anime; for example, many fans ended up unable to enjoy anime that are set in highschool because they feel it is in too many anime already. I say that's unfortunate. VVV is doing many things differently, you just had to pay attention to those things.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think that you're jumping to conclusions here. There are plenty of superpowerful metahumans in fiction that aren't treated like monsters just because they're superpowerful metahumans.


And frankly, I think that a predictable plot twist is hardly anything to be proud of, writing-wise. Nobody is surprised that Shoko is still alive, and even the timing of her return isn't particularly surprising to many of us. The whole point of a good plot twist is to surprise the viewership, and keep them on the edge of their seat. Not to make them think "Here we go with the cliches again..."

Shoko staying dead for the entire duration of the anime would have been the most surprising and ballsy approach to take. Does anybody here seriously disagree with this?


I don't think that the writing in this show is particularly bad - I mean, it isn't plot hole-ridden, as far as I can tell. But I personally don't find the writing particularly good, either.

[Eclipze]

Well, what can you say. We have certain people in a certain Evil Flower thread defending the director's/studio's choice of an animation style that unfortunately employs shoddy work, saying that the lack of quality there is a "artistic" decision rather than lazy animation, dismissing each and every complain about the lack of quality in animation by detractors. Oh, and like the defenders of this thread, constantly asks people to stop complaining (GTFO essentially).

And some these same people come here for the doing the exact opposite thing (ie complain about the show and people who defend it). Smells like...double standards?

[FiveOVER]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

If people think these things they are allowed to say it. If you don't agree then defend the show but I hope your defense is not going to consist of the above. Actually defend the show itself. People are just expressing their opinions good or bad.


It's the early part of the show and criticism is the most heavy in the early episodes.
Most people who genuinely hate the show will drop it.

As for myself personally I don't hate the show. I compared it to my feelings on Code Geass, which I also didn't think was all that well written and I made plenty of fun of BUT I STILL ENJOYED.

edit: How you defended the show in your post above. That is what I mean. I have no issues with that whether I agree or disagree.

No offense, I'm just trying to point out some of your misconceptions. What I'm trying to say in my previous post is that those criticisms and complaints have been repeated 9 times way too often and there is already no need to continuosly hammer your points when we already received the message.

I don't know how you get the impression, but i never once made fun of those criticisms and complaints. And i never once said they were invalid or dumb. So far, I have only pointed out the lack of logic in some of those reasonings and gave my own reasoning on the matter. All of my posts have been a correction of logic or explanation on my part. I fail to see why you think I am disrespectful towards people's opinions or criticisms.

Is there something about my posts and your comprehension? It's like they don't go well together.

*Oh you are only criticizing because you just don't like it or it just didn't do what you wanted
*Or you are only criticizing because you wanted some grim dark show
*And you are just taking this show too seriously as that is some defense against all criticism.

Although I don't encourage using these points as defence, I don't see any wrong in using them when addressing the right person. It might actually be true depending on the individual. But yeah, they can't be applied as a general rebuttal for all that criticizes this show.

[Kirarakim]

Flying Turkey, my response is only towards the type of posts I described in my post not towards legitimate defense of the series. I am not saying there has not been legitimate defense. I am just saying the criticism itself is not illegitimate.

Now someone can make a legitimate defense and I can still disagree with it, just like you can disagree with any criticism.

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Bad writing is when the writer doesn't know how to express what he's want in the medium.

Sorry but I personally don't consider that the only requirement of good or bad writing.

Originally Posted by FiveOVER

All of my posts have been a correction of logic or explanation on my part. I fail to see why you think I am disrespectful towards people's opinions or criticisms.

Is there something about my posts and your comprehension? It's like they don't go well together.

No I think it is your comprehension that is off. You seem to think I am attacking you personally. I was making a general statement of posts I see in this thread, it was not directed just at you or at you at all

In fact I even said I have nothing against the way you defended the show in your last post.

[theflyingturkey]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Flying Turkey, my response is only towards the type of posts I described in my post not towards legitimate defense of the series. I am not saying there has not been legitimate defense. I am just saying the criticism itself is not illegitimate.

Now someone can make a legitimate defense and I can still disagree with it, just like you can disagree with any criticism.

Oh okay, thanks for clearing that up.

I sincerely apologize.