Madoka Magica - Movie 3 Spoilers and Speculations

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'm inclined to think it's one or the other, given how calmly and confidently Sayaka responded to the arising of Witch!Homura. I don't think there was any ever real danger of Homura being denied a meeting with Madokami.

I admit that's a possibility. Still, it was unnecessary to let things escalate to that point.

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So it's justifiable to not try to save somebody from getting killed? And it's not justifiable to get sucked in a bit by a wonderful dream world?

You're becoming Sayaka lol. Don't get sidetracked, we're talking about who has more of a justified reason to be cryptic. Again, Homura had done the talking in the previous timelines, nobody listened to her, and seriously, how rudely Sayaka treated her even back when she was just Moemura? You can't really blame her why she didn't spill them all. Also, wasn't Sayaka always doomed to die in every timeline? Sayaka being cryptic in that single time in the film was lame and stupid. Forgetting a crucial mission (which should be a priority at that point) over a dream was not wise at all. Look what caused her 'forgetfulness'

What good is Homura's information if the girls are already Puella Magi? It's too late to be of any practical use then.

You're putting an excuse to find fault with Homura sharing the information in that timeline. So what if it's too late, atleast she told them, (while Sayaka continues to be irrationally unkind to her).

There's nothing "stupid" about understandably getting sucked in by an appealing dream world. And if you feel it necessary to ask someone to excuse a specific word then that's probably a good sign that you shouldn't be using that word.

No past timelines to show she even tried to tell; there's something stupid when you withhold information that could greatly help someone (and that someone was your supposed main goal). I honestly couldn't find a more accurate term over that one. So since, I'm talking to you, a Sayaka-fan, I'm inclined to ask for an excuse

Maybe you're right. Homura loves Madoka, and Sayaka loves Kyousuke. One tries to completely control the person she loves, while the other makes a sacrifice to benefit that person and then lets him live his life as he so pleases. I know which is more admirable to me...

Wait, you're getting sidetracked again, we're talking about how Homura being cryptic was justifiable over Sayaka's

[Kazu-kun]

So, the highlight of the movie when it comes the action is definitely the Homu/Mami gun-kata fight. I was kinda surprised that Mami could keep up with Homu. I know that Mami's magically stronger, but she usually lacks drive. In this fight though, she shows a lot of tenacity. I think it's probably because she was fighting to protect BB, which in this world was her first true friend.

Anyway, cool stuff all around.

[Von Himmel]

Eh, the highlight for me was when Madoka seems to remind me of SMT Yhvh where she uphold Law before desire

The Homu/Mami battle was definitely awesome though! Still, I keep wondering how Mami was able to move when time is stopped until I realized that Homu's leg was tied with Mami's ribbon..

The final witch battle wasn't too bad either

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

So, the highlight of the movie when it comes the action is definitely the Homu/Mami gun-kata fight. I was kinda surprised that Mami could keep up with Homu. I know that Mami's magically stronger, but she usually lacks drive. In this fight though, she shows a lot of tenacity. I think it's probably because she was fighting to protect BB, which in this world was her first true friend.

Anyway, cool stuff all around.

I agree. The Mami vs Homura was a the best part for me. It was intense. I honestly think that without Homura's Time Stop Ability, Mami, without a doubt, had the advantage there. I don't think they're serious about trying to kill each other though lol. So there's some restraint there.

[sailorcrisp]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, I finally saw the movie for myself. It does change my perception on a few things, and I have some ideas/theories to put forward based on what I just watched. I'll give a more comprehensive take on the movie tomorrow.

Since most of the recent discussion on this thread has centered around Homura and Sayaka, I will also focus primarily on them for now.

Spoiler for Theory on Homura:

I think the key to understanding Homura in this movie is focusing on moments where she appears shocked and/or emotionally moved to tears.

When Dream World!Madoka told Homura that she could never leave her friends (paraphrased), that deeply impacted Homura. Homura was clearly moved a lot by it, and it was almost like she had an epiphany here.

I think Homura took Madoka's words to mean that Madoka would be happier as a normal girl, living alongside her friends. And so Homura decided to make that reality happen if/when she had a chance to achieve it (as she would later on in the movie).

So I think that Homura is genuinely thrilled and overjoyed at forcing Madokami to become "normal girl" Madoka again. It is a moment of great emotional catharthis for Homura. However, I think that Homura realizes that there's a certain darkness to her actions at a more intellectual/philosophical level. Homura had previously talked about how her dream world was basically a mockery of Madoka's great wish, and hence she would do whatever it takes to destroy that dream world in order to honor Madoka. So this is why Homura calls herself a demon, since she's going completely against what she said with such conviction before.

I think that Homura's mind and heart are at war with each other. Her mind wants to respect what Madoka has done, but her heart wants a world where Madoka is happy and with her friends. Whereas Homura's mind dominated in the middle portions of the movie, it was ultimately her heart that prevailed (perhaps due to how she became a new sort of being, based on her overwhelming love for Madoka).


Later on, in Homura!World, Homura appears genuinely shocked at Madoka's answer to the "Law or Desires?" question. Madoka favored "Law", which I definitely think took Homura by surprise. I think this is because Homura sincerely felt that Madoka would favor "Desires" based on what Madoka said to her inside the original dream world.

Homura is very much taken aback at Madokami reasserting herself, and then Homura tightly hugs Madoka to try to force her back into being a normal human girl. When Homura says that her and Madoka will be enemies, it is said without malice. It is Homura's mind reasserting itself over her emotions, recognizing the plain fact that she may not be able to contain Madokami forever, and when/if that containment fails, they will indeed be enemies (at least in the sense of oppositional forces).

But Homura quickly adds "But that doesn't matter", I think to reassure Madoka to not be fearful over the "enemy" comment.

I think that Homura's plan is to give Madoka a happy normal life with her friends for as long as possible. Once that time is up, she will likely allow Madokami to defeat her.


I don't think Homura turned evil, or even particularly villainous. I think her actions are based on an overwhelming sincere love for Madoka. Though it is tinged with light touches of unrequited romantic longing, so some of Homura's personal desires for herself are also coming through. During the moment she began overwhelming Madokami, Homura said "Finally, you're mine". And in Homura!World, SHAFT decides to have an interesting close-up on Homura's lips. There is a light touch of yandere here to be sure, mixed in with the more dominant selfless love for Madoka.


On the whole, I don't have a major problem with Homura's actions here, and I think they're motivated by sincere love and caring, as misguided as they may be.

Spoiler for Theory on Sayaka:

Maybe it was the subs I saw, but there was hardly any talk of "plan" whatsoever. There's a lot that is left to be inferred, and so infer I shall.

Here's my theory - This isn't your typical Puella Magi soul collection. It involves a dream world. I think a decision was made, perhaps even by Madoka herself, that it would be best for Homura to be the one to push forward in rejecting the dream world and accepting all of what that entailed.

So here is what I think happened - Madoka, Sayaka, and Nagisa decided to let Homura have her dream world, for a time, so she'd be more at peace at saying goodbye to it. I think this hits home for Sayaka for two reasons:

1. Back in Episode 12 of the TV series, Madoka showed Sayaka one final Kyousuke concert before "moving on". This, I think, gave Sayaka an important moment of realization and satisfaction, so she could "move on", without any lingering regrets or attachments to the physical world. It's kind of like a similar plot element in Angel Beats!, for those familiar with that anime.

2. Sayaka talked about regretting how she had to say goodbye to Kyouko before. I think she wanted to spare Homura something like that.


So I think the idea was to let Homura learn for herself the truth about her world, and to decide for herself when she'd choose to destroy it to liberate Madoka. Sayaka essentially stressed how "This world isn't so bad, is it?", and I think that was to make Homura fully aware of the emotional appeal of her dream world. The idea being "Don't reject it too quickly. Savor it until you've truly had enough. Then you can move on peacefully and happily". Sayaka's words are a bit cryptic, but I think it's to spur Homura into thinking a bit differently than how she normally does.

Unfortunately, I think that Sayaka did misjudge how Homura would react to this. I think Homura acted much more quickly than Sayaka had expected. I do think that Sayaka had a backup plan for that, but it was a backup plan. Homura turning into a witch was unfortunate, and not Plan A.

But still, Sayaka didn't sweat it too much, because they'd just defeat Witch!Homura, and Madokami would then liberate her from her sadness and bring final happiness to Homura anyway. All's well that end's well, right?

But Sayaka (like Madoka, Mami, and Kyouko) were all truly stunned by what Homura did. That was clearly not part of the plan, or the backup plan.


One thing I want to stress is just how very smooth and confident Sayaka was. There was never the slightest bit of doubt that Kyubey would ultimately be defeated, Madokami liberated, and Homura's spirit collected. Hence, there was understandably not the slightest sense of urgency. I think it was treated more as a spiritual journey that Homura needed to go on for her own sake, rather than a truly difficult struggle against Kyubey.


So I admit I was wrong about the whole trust argument. No, it wasn't a trust issue. I think it was Sayaka playing a spirit guide who unfortunately somewhat misjudged the guided spirit herself.

Well... that went rather long. I hope my ideas here might make some sense to other viewers, and perhaps give a different appreciation for what's going on in this movie, and with the characters in this movie.

Hmmmm.... well now I feel better hehe. Homura doesn't sound so evil
Thanks for the summary. I need to watch the movie properly...

Von Himmel, yeah, I apologise, I haven't watched the movie properly so I'm going by what people have said here. I do like Sayaka...not as much as Homura though haha .

And Kyubey's a bit of a liar... He said in the old world he doesn't know how to revert witches to Magical girls and all this jazz, yet he is able to halt the witch transformation process with Homura... And he's able to do that without supposedly knowing anything about witches in the new world except for the stories Homura told him.

One more thing I'm confused about. In episode 12 (new world) there's no evidence of the shield or the ability to time stop. In the dream world, she can still use her shield and stop time... But outside the barrier, in the "real world" is it known if her magical girl state still has that ability?

I agree with the Mami/Homura scene! I haven't seen the whole thing, but it definitely looks good!

[Jimmy C]

I'll note this, we do not know the state of the "real world" outside Homura's barrier. It could even be argued that the last part of the movie takes place within an enlarged barrier, so we still don't know what the world beyond Homura's barrier looks like.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

It could even be argued that the last part of the movie takes place within an enlarged barrier, so we still don't know what the world beyond Homura's barrier looks like.

Homura's barrier covers the entire universe. There's literally nothing outside her barrier.

[Sayaka's sandbag]

So I watched the camera rip that has been floating around and OMG it's just made me want to watch it for myself and own the Blu-ray even more. I loved the whole damn thing!!!

And wow, from what I read it seemed as though it may have been a little convoluted here and there but I found it easy enough to follow so no more fears there.

And wow, those 2 and a half minutes worth of transformations in the early parts were superb!!!

Ooooh, my widdle Sayaka's cuter than ever too x3

Shaft, TAKE MY MONEY!!!

And in seriousness I do think it's leading up to a second season... Excellent.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by BaKaBaKaOtaKu

You're becoming Sayaka lol. Don't get sidetracked, we're talking about who has more of a justified reason to be cryptic.

Then I'm not getting "sidetracked" at all. Determining whether or not someone is justified in being cryptic involves exploring their motivation for being cryptic, and what would likely occur if they were less cryptic.

Again, Homura had done the talking in the previous timelines, nobody listened to her, and seriously, how rudely Sayaka treated her even back when she was just Moemura?

How would you respond to being told that your dream hero role is actually a curse that will end up with you dead or turning into a witch (that'll likely get killed by a different magical girl not that long after)? What practical value is there to that information?

I'd honestly argue that once someone is a Puella Magi, they're probably better off kept blissfully unaware of this. Just look at your girl Mami in Timeline 3.

To be fair, I can understand Homura sharing this information with people for the simple reason that it's not something that's easy to keep to yourself and deal with privately. But it shouldn't surprise anybody that nobody who's already a Puella Magi would want to listen to Homura, and that some would respond rudely to having a nightmarish truth revealed to them.

You can't really blame her why she didn't spill them all.

If she had tried revealing it to the girls while they were not yet Puella Magi, the girls may have reacted differently then. There's obviously a huge difference between saying "There's this really bad situation that I want to help you avoid" and "We're in a really bad situation with no way out".

Also, wasn't Sayaka always doomed to die in every timeline?

No, going by what Gen wrote, this is only the case in the timelines where Sayaka becomes a magical girl. That's not every timeline (Sayaka as a Puella Magi is nowhere to be seen in the first two timelines, for example).

Sayaka being cryptic in that single time in the film was lame and stupid.

Not necessarily. Please read what I wrote here about Sayaka.

So what if it's too late, atleast she told them, (while Sayaka continues to be irrationally unkind to her).

There's nothing irrational about reacting badly to bad news.

No past timelines to show she even tried to tell; there's something stupid when you withhold information that could greatly help someone (and that someone was your supposed main goal).

Not if you have a good reason or motivation for withholding that information. Again, please read what I wrote earlier there.

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Then I'm not getting "sidetracked" at all. Determining whether or not someone is justified in being cryptic involves exploring their motivation for being cryptic, and what would likely occur if they were less cryptic.

Yes you are. I don't think it should go further since that's taking a different matter already. It was like simply asking "Did she try to share the information?" Homura- Yes, Sayaka-No. That's what makes them different.

To be fair, I can understand Homura sharing this information with people for the simple reason that it's not something that's easy to keep to yourself and deal with privately. But it shouldn't surprise anybody that nobody who's already a Puella Magi would want to listen to Homura, and that some would respond rudely to having a nightmarish truth revealed to them.

You know, just because you can be really rude to someone, doesn't mean you should. I never understood why Sayaka was cruel to Homura even back then, perhaps it's just in her nature to be like that. And no, not giving a person a chance to be believed in, or even try to listen to isn't considerate at all.

No, going by what Gen wrote, this is only the case in the timelines where Sayaka becomes a magical girl. That's not every timeline (Sayaka as a Puella Magi is nowhere to be seen in the first two timelines, for example).

Those timelines prior to Sayaka's existence aren't counted. I assume she's always been doomed since the first timeline she appeared.

Not necessarily. Please read what I wrote here about Sayaka.

Sorry, I don't share the same sentiment with you. It's just pure speculation on your part. So let's just agree to disagree.

There's nothing irrational about reacting badly to bad news.

Reacting badly to a news differs to being outright inconsiderate of the person delivering it. So no.

Not if you have a good reason or motivation for withholding that information. Again, please read what I wrote earlier there.

Withholding a crucial information that could very well be helpful to the person you're supposed to help, yeah And that's why Sayaka doesn't know her priorities


I don't think we'll ever agree on the matter, so I think we'll just leave it with our own view.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by BaKaBaKaOtaKu

Yes you are.

No, I'm not "getting side-tracked". I'm raising perfectly valid and pertinent points given our discussion.

I don't think it should go further since that's taking a different matter already. It was like simply asking "Did she try to share the information?" Homura- Yes, Sayaka-No. That's what makes them different.

What's the point of sharing information when it's no longer of any real use?

The fact is that Homura was never shown sharing vital information when it could have been truly useful. No, she was very cryptic during that point. More cryptic than what Sayaka was in this movie, in my opinion.

You know, just because you can be really rude to someone, doesn't mean you should.

Sayaka wasn't that rude. She was a little bit curt with Homura. It's no more rude than what Homura was towards Sayaka at times.

In any event, part of Sayaka's "rudeness" was due to concern with getting struck by one of Homura's bombs. For a close-quarters combatant like Sayaka, that's a valid concern.

I never understood why Sayaka was cruel to Homura even back then, perhaps it's just in her nature to be like that.

No, it's not. Sayaka was quite friendly to all of her fellow Puella Magi in this movie.

Timeline 3 Sayaka was understandable upset at hearing a nightmarish truth being revealed to her, coming from somebody that she already found dangerous to work with.

Those timelines prior to Sayaka's existence aren't counted.

What the heck are you even getting on with here? "Prior to Sayaka's existence"? Sayaka was in every timeline. We clearly see her in Timeline 1.

Sorry, I don't share the same sentiment with you.

More like you don't want to even consider it because you want to hate on Sayaka. You're clearly unwilling to consider any argument that would justify Sayaka's actions and words.

Withholding a crucial information that could very well be helpful to the person you're supposed to help, yeah

Which is exactly what Homura did during the final timeline. And not just to Sayaka, but also to Madoka.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

If she had tried revealing it to the girls while they were not yet Puella Magi, the girls may have reacted differently then. There's obviously a huge difference between saying "There's this really bad situation that I want to help you avoid" and "We're in a really bad situation with no way out".

Right. This does apply to Homura, but I don't see how this applies to Sayaka here. She is given all the information she needs on a way out, so she isn't stuck in some Catch 22 world where everyone is damned if they do know and damned if they don't.

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

We'll never meet eye-to-eye on the matter, so this will be my last reply to you.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The fact is that Homura was never shown sharing vital information when it could have been truly useful. No, she was very cryptic during that point. More cryptic than what Sayaka was in this movie, in my opinion.

Sorry when was she more cryptic than Sayaka? We're talking about that timeline she was Moemura right? No, I don't see that being more cryptic than Sayaka. We didn't know what happened during the other timelines, so maybe she did it there, and Sayaka was doomed again and everyone of them.

Sayaka wasn't that rude. She was a little bit curt with Homura. It's no more rude than what Homura was towards Sayaka at times. In any event, part of Sayaka's "rudeness" was due to concern with getting struck by one of Homura's bombs. For a close-quarters combatant like Sayaka, that's a valid concern.

IMO that was rude, no matter how I see it. Homura rude to Sayaka, when? We're talking about Moemura here right? I don't remember her being one. Last timeline Homura might come off cold but not rude, imo.

What the heck are you even getting on with here? "Prior to Sayaka's existence"? Sayaka was in every timeline. We clearly see her in Timeline 1.

Sorry, I missed a word, "Sayaka's MG" existence I mean.

More like you don't want to even consider it because you want to hate on Sayaka. You're clearly unwilling to consider any argument that would justify Sayaka's actions and words.

I tried to consider your thoughts but I can't help but just see them as too much pro-Sayaka opinion coming from a huge Sayaka fan. Maybe if the film really had made things clear, with no bs out-of-character plots, I could take them, but right now, no.

Which is exactly what Homura did during the final timeline. And not just to Sayaka, but also to Madoka.

And we're just going in circles because I'm going to tell you again that Homura had all those timelines doing that. She thought she could have it in a different approach, giving no fucks in the process, that's why she withheld it while Sayaka had that one crucial time to say it, but didn't etc...etc...

[bahamut zero]

Could someone explain that after credit scene for me? I really don't get what happened there.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by bahamut zero

Could someone explain that after credit scene for me? I really don't get what happened there.

It's symbolic. Homura achieves her goal, but she's alone, hence there's only one chair and only half the moon. She might protect Madoka and maker her happy, but that means she herself will never be happy, so she "falls" at the end. On the other hand, her smile suggests she's still determined to face these consequences for the sake of Madoka's happiness. Even if she ends up "falling", she won't give up.

[bahamut zero]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

It's symbolic. Homura achieves her goal, but she's alone, hence there's only one chair and only half the moon. She might protect Madoka and maker her happy, but that means she herself will never be happy, so she "falls" at the end. On the other hand, her smile suggests she's still determined to face this consequences for the sake of Madoka's happiness. Even if she ends up "falling", she won't give up.

And what about the beat-up Kyubey?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by bahamut zero

And what about the beat-up Kyubey?

What about it? He made the girls suffering all this time for the sake of his goal. Now, as a result of his own actions, he himself is in utter despair.

You know, you reap what you sow.

[bahamut zero]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

What about it? He made the girls suffering all this time for the sake of his goal. Now, as a result of his own actions, he himself is in utter despair.

You know, you reap what you sow.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaah. Now it's becoming clear.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Right. This does apply to Homura, but I don't see how this applies to Sayaka here.

Homura was in a Catch-22 situation in Timeline 3. She wasn't in a Catch-22 situation in the final timeline, between Mami's death and Sayaka becoming a Puella Magi. She had invaluable information that she could have shared with Madoka and Sayaka during that period. To be fair, it's difficult information to share. So is telling someone "You're becoming a witch, and this is your witch's realm". I can see someone thinking that it's better to hint at that, and let people reach the disturbing conclusion themselves. Perhaps less likely to reject a painful truth then.

Originally Posted by BaKaBaKaOtaKu

Sorry when was she more cryptic than Sayaka? We're talking about that timeline she was Moemura right?

No, I'm talking about the final timeline. Homura was very cryptic there.

We didn't know what happened during the other timelines, so maybe she did it there, and Sayaka was doomed again and everyone of them.

So now who's engaging in pure speculation?

If it's Ok for you to engage in pure speculation to defend Homura, then surely the same is true for me defending Sayaka.