(L) Arpeggio of Blue Steel (Aoki Hagane no Arpeggio)

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by DLRevan

Well over a hundred of those.

Not to mention around a dozen american supercarriers, plus the Charles de Gaulle.

Google results say that the sunken nuclear submarines are less of a concern than the ones sitting duck in russian docks being inactive though.

[DLRevan]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

which is exactly the discussion in a nutshell.

And I'll just keep reiterating, you guys are far too naive about how willing governments and militaries are to use nuclear weapons, if not for the concern of arms escalation. Environmental impact or even civilian casualties can have very little weight depending on the severity of the threat to sovereignty. You don' think the world governments are pushing for "environmental conservation" out of the goodness of their hearts and because they recognize that humans must save the Earth, do you?

Originally Posted by Xero8420

And some Russian subs too.

I included those. Russians have a fair number of nuclear subs, and so do a number of other countries, like China.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Google results say that the sunken nuclear submarines are less of a concern than the ones sitting duck in russian docks being inactive though.

It's just an example of how you guys overestimate the danger of nuclear contamination. The subs inactive in the docks pose a radiation risk in particular because of two things. One is they have been left abandoned in a standby condition without the fail safes activated, due to shoddy regulation. The other is that in the dock, and at surface level, there is much less area for radioactives to disperse over.

They also pose little contamination risk compared to Fukusima or Chernobyl. It's just easy to worry about them in peacetime.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by DLRevan

And I'll just keep reiterating, you guys are far too naive about how willing governments and militaries are to use nuclear weapons, if not for the concern of arms escalation.

And you honestly believe that a series of nuclear strikes against (how many fog ships are there?) wouldn't escalate?
They don't shoot back because being told to.
We have seen a few hot-headed ships by now who will probably care less about that outdated command from the AC when they start shining during the night.

Originally Posted by DLRevan

Environmental impact or even civilian casualties can have very little weight depending on the severity of the threat to sovereignty.

Originally Posted by DLRevan

You don' think the world governments are pushing for "environmental conservation" out of the goodness of their hearts and because they recognize that humans must save the Earth, do you?

No but I think they are smarter than risking of loosing what they tried to keep save with the nukes in the first place.
Keeping a country save using nukes matters very little when everything left is ashes.

Originally Posted by DLRevan

It's just an example of how you guys overestimate the danger of nuclear contamination. The subs inactive in the docks pose a radiation risk in particular because of two things. One is they have been left abandoned in a standby condition without the fail safes activated, due to shoddy regulation. The other is that in the dock, and at surface level, there is much less area for radioactives to disperse over.

Obviousy the one having wrote the article did too then.
Which brings me to the question what it is that makes you think that the authors don't overestimate it either.

Originally Posted by DLRevan

They also pose little contamination risk compared to Fukusima or Chernobyl.

Coincidentally Chernobyl actually leaking.

You are free to enlighten us about the fallout radius of several H-bombs in city size at any time- because that is what you'd probably need to get through an energy shield of unknown strength in the first place.

[DLRevan]

On the subs, whoever wrote on it, is not underestimating anything, unless whatever article implied anything more than very local contamination. As I've said, it is easy to worry about such things in peacetime. It's easy to worry about very local problems in peacetime. And it If you were at war, it wouldn't be given as much weight. People's priorities change when your way of life is at stake, you know.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

And you honestly believe that a series of nuclear strikes against (how many fog ships are there?) wouldn't escalate?
They don't shoot back because being told to.
We have seen a few hot-headed ships by now who will probably care less about that outdated command from the AC when they start shining during the night.

You're saying it would prompt the Fog fleet to escalate their actions? That makes no sense. Think about it, what is was this series originally about? When humans fought against the Fog, they fully intended to destroy those ships to protect their way of life. Furthermore, this whole series started with Japan developing a weapon that can actually eliminate a Fog Ship. They haven't suddenly decided 'escalation' is preferable now, and not before.

They didn't even have mental models before, if anything it is more likely now than when the Fog first appeared that such escalation will occur...and it's only now that humans have a weapon that (beyond shadow of doubt as far as story verified info goes) can threaten the Fog.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

You are free to enlighten us about the fallout radius of several H-bombs in city size at any time- because that is what you'd probably need to get through an energy shield of unknown strength in the first place.

It entirely depends on environmental conditions. It's not even a fixed measurable thing.

For a 50 MT 2-stage thermonuke bomb that can flatten everything in a 20km radius, and assuming wind speeds of up to 25km/h, fallout equivalent to 200 rads will cover a range with a maximum distance of about 300km. In nautical terms, barely any distance at all.

The fallout undersea is less measurable, but judging from nuclear accidents resulting in leaks or from nuclear tests, it's barely anything either. In fact, probably much less than air distribution. Lighter elements get diffused over a very wide area while heavier elements simply sink. The amount that would consequently get absorbed by sea life would be far less than say, Fukushima. I think more sea life would die from the initial blast than long-term effects.

Some air currents will carry radioactive material around the globe no matter what. When push comes to shove, smarter people than us recognize that raising the Earth's average radioactivity even as much as a 100 rads is probably acceptable. Living things, including humans, have survived in areas of supposedly high radioactivity for millions of years. Not all radioactive regions are unnatural. People will survive. I'd be more concerned about the destruction of technology and possible nuclear winter than fallout, because the former two are much less localized and have a much greater effect on human life.

[synx]

Given the information from ch45(?), ch.49, ch.50, and the drama CD, I think it's more likely than not Iona is acting under orders from Yamato.

[MrTerrorist]

I'm trying to refresh my memory but did the Drama CD and Guide book came together which fans could order when they sent a coupon that was included in Volume 4?

[Occulus]

This is completely random, but for the submarine buffs out there:
They found the wreckage of the I-400
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...0JI07L20131203

[DLRevan]

Originally Posted by MrTerrorist

I'm trying to refresh my memory but did the Drama CD and Guide book came together which fans could order when they sent a coupon that was included in Volume 4?

They were released at different times as I recall.

Originally Posted by synx

Given the information from ch45(?), ch.49, ch.50, and the drama CD, I think it's more likely than not Iona is acting under orders from Yamato.

Agreed on that, because the drama cd is pretty obvious about it. Where's the evidence in 49 though?

[synx]

Originally Posted by DLRevan

They were released at different times as I recall.



Agreed on that, because the drama cd is pretty obvious about it. Where's the evidence in 49 though?

Yamato knowing that Gunzou left the ship. How would she know that, unless Iona told her

[DLRevan]

Originally Posted by synx

Yamato knowing that Gunzou left the ship. How would she know that, unless Iona told her

Hm...she doesn't know where he went though, going as far as to give a Yukikaze a mental model to find him. Unless Iona also does not know..but she and the crew do seem to. Plus Gunzou is the type to trust his friends with everything.

Still, I can't explain Yamato knowing if that's the case. Maybe Iona is not reporting everything, but only what she wants to. Like something a little more informal than a subordinate relationship. Seems pretty roundabout if that's the case, though that makes Iona a sort of player too.

[Tenzen12]

I think from very begenning Iona was given right do as she pleases by Yamato. At least in drama CD she was just sent to verify if humans have merit and than just decided hang on with Gunzou.

Yamato is type that gives her subordinates plenty of freedom.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by DLRevan

You're saying it would prompt the Fog fleet to escalate their actions? That makes no sense. Think about it, what is was this series originally about? When humans fought against the Fog, they fully intended to destroy those ships to protect their way of life. Furthermore, this whole series started with Japan developing a weapon that can actually eliminate a Fog Ship. They haven't suddenly decided 'escalation' is preferable now, and not before.

Aehm ask Haruna and Maya .
That being said I said we have seen hot-headed Mental models (the one in the last chapter is a good example) not the the entire fleet is.
Other than that said weapon can't pass through Klein fields, while enough nukes would probably be able to do that.

Originally Posted by DLRevan

For a 50 MT 2-stage thermonuke bomb that can flatten everything in a 20km radius, and assuming wind speeds of up to 25km/h, fallout equivalent to 200 rads will cover a range with a maximum distance of about 300km. In nautical terms, barely any distance at all.

There is a webpage (nukemap) where you can check the the destructive radius of both nukes and H2 bombs per Megaton and i checked it on both vienna and Tokyo. - 300Km seems to be the thermal radiation radius, and is if you look at the a considerable amount of land.
that being said the green circle is the Radiation radius at 500 rads - which is indeed rather small.
If you acivate the fallout checkbox(yes you have to activate that separetly) you get an entirely different picture on a much larger scale though(for the surface burst). - the fallout shown there is at 15 mph wind btw

If you take that as a reference and consider that you will probably have to shoot several of these at Kongou alone who will definitely not sit idle at the same spot. So with her top speed you'd have several overlapping ones.
I'd have to check the places we have seen fog ships, but placing the ep center near the coast of nagasaki would give a 10 rad/hr fallout up to the Hiroshima region depending on the wind direction (you can drag drop that)
The actual 1000 rads/hr radius is smaller than 300km though, yes.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

I think from very begenning Iona was given right do as she pleases by Yamato. At least in drama CD she was just sent to verify if humans have merit and than just decided hang on with Gunzou.

Yamato is type that gives her subordinates plenty of freedom.

Aye, Yamato wanting a second opinion sounds perfectly plausible.

[CrazyPerson]

Originally Posted by DLRevan

Hm...she doesn't know where he went though, going as far as to give a Yukikaze a mental model to find him. Unless Iona also does not know..but she and the crew do seem to. Plus Gunzou is the type to trust his friends with everything.

Still, I can't explain Yamato knowing if that's the case. Maybe Iona is not reporting everything, but only what she wants to. Like something a little more informal than a subordinate relationship. Seems pretty roundabout if that's the case, though that makes Iona a sort of player too.

Yamato seems to be directly monitoring the actions of I400 and I402. Maybe she does the same to I401 but secretly. With her creating Yukikaze's mental model, maybe she can directly monitor the new model too.

When Gunzou is on the I401, if Yamato has direct observational powers over everything Iona does, Yamato knows exactly where he is at all times. However, even if both mental models know he's heading for the wreck of Hyuuga, there's no active Fog ship under her direct monitoring with him. The stalker part of Yamato is all like "No! I must know where he is at all times and he must be accompanied by a Fog ship." and then sends Yukikaze after him.

If we think of Yamato like an obsessive girlfriend underneath the cool and calmness, it might make a little sense.

[synx]

You know the authors haven't mentioned the vibration warhead in ~30 chapters. I wonder if they forgot about it already.

[Tenzen12]

It should be still on Hakugei, shouldn't it? And they got a very little page time...

[synx]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

It should be still on Hakugei, shouldn't it? And they got a very little page time...

Yeah but the way things are going in the manga they won't even need the vibration warhead by the time they get to America because Gunzou will have amassed a fleet by then

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by synx

Yeah but the way things are going in the manga they won't even need the vibration warhead by the time they get to America because Gunzou will have amassed a fleet by then

Yeah I wonder if he will manage to add yamato to it too .
Well he will need to... he needs Nanomaterial for Takao's new hull :/

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by synx

Yeah but the way things are going in the manga they won't even need the vibration warhead by the time they get to America because Gunzou will have amassed a fleet by then

I doubt about that, He had I-401, then got Takao, then lost Takao than get (probably) half of Hyuuga ( or maybe Takao again if she return?).

That's not what I would call steady growth of fleet...

[DLRevan]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Yeah I wonder if he will manage to add yamato to it too .
Well he will need to... he needs Nanomaterial for Takao's new hull :/

Raise half of Hyuuga's hull, reform it into Takao' new hull. Lets see....maybe keelhaul Kongou and rechristen her hull Hyuuga...

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

I doubt about that, He had I-401, then got Takao, then lost Takao than get (probably) half of Hyuuga ( or maybe Takao again if she return?).

That's not what I would call steady growth of fleet...

Realistically it won't happen in the story, but I have this vision of a Fleet consisting of all three I-400s, Yamato, Takao, Atago, Maya, plus yet-to-be-seen Chokai Haruna, Kirishima, Ashigara, Nachi and maybe Repulse + vampire (who have already taken up 30+ pages without a connection to Gunzou and 401 just yet....perhaps a sub-plot reserved for Hakugei?)


Ah yes, Hakugei. Maybe she can be Gunzou's gofer ship or something.

[EadTaes]

I would like to see Vampire get a MT see what kind of personality it will have. Repulse had to constantly tell it to stop shooting and concentrate on running away, so Vampire seems like a little ball of aggression but controlled aggression since she held course no matter what.

Reading that bit made me think of Taffy 3 at the battle Samar were a handful of destroyers toke on a main Japanese battle fleet and inflict heavier loses onto them then they received.