NFL and College Football (American Football) Thread

[Suzuku]

It looks like we'll be picking behind Cleveland at this rate and they will take him. And while I like him I wouldn't trade up to get him.

I really hope if we don't get the number 1 pick next year (and it's not likely we will obviously) that it's a team who doesn't need a QB that gets it so we have a chance to trade up and get Jameis. I think if there was anyone Caldwell would trade up to get it's Jameis, especially since his attitude matches Gus's coaching style perfectly.

[ReaperxKingx]

Originally Posted by Suzuku

It looks like we'll be picking behind Cleveland at this rate and they will take him. And while I like him I wouldn't trade up to get him.

I really hope if we don't get the number 1 pick next year (and it's not likely we will obviously) that it's a team who doesn't need a QB that gets it so we have a chance to trade up and get Jameis. I think if there was anyone Caldwell would trade up to get it's Jameis, especially since his attitude matches Gus's coaching style perfectly.

Some Draft Analysis said that Cleveland likes Manziel rather than Carr. I can see why as well. The Franchise is being franchise to draft someone special.

For some reason, in many draft boards, Carr biggest flaw in him is his genetics. Due to David Carr being a bust, some have place Carr around the 10-15 draft overall. While those who are not discriminate have listed him between 5 -8.

[Suzuku]

I really doubt the Browns like Manziel more than Carr. That doesn't make sense.

[ReaperxKingx]

Originally Posted by Suzuku

I really doubt the Browns like Manziel more than Carr. That doesn't make sense.

Manziel is the better athlete and can make plays happen. Seeing that the Browns are having trouble in the offense line as well, they may opted for a Quarterback that can escape if the line falls apart. As well, many mock drafts listed that Cleveland may not even go Quarterback in the first round and select a top receiver to play alongside Gordon. Sammy Watkins from Clemson is what many draft boards list for the selection in the draft.

You'll be surprise of how close Manziel is listed in the Quarterback ratings. Few listed him as the second overall, while many listed him after Carr albeit very close like around 2 spots behind average.

[Suzuku]

I know Manziel is highly ranked (for now). But I have a feeling if a team doesn't take him early on he's on of those that could slide to the second round. Carr is going to shoot up on a lot of people's boards after combines and things. People just don't know about Carr right now.

And the Browns run an Air Coryell offense. That calls for a big armed QB that can move a little and at least a 6'3'' frame. Think Joe Flacco. I've always thought that if Cleveland takes a QB in this draft it will either be Carr and if not then Mettenberger (unlikely now since he tore his ACL). Carr is literally the picture of what Chudzinski and Norv Turner are looking for in their QB.

[ReaperxKingx]

Originally Posted by Suzuku

I know Manziel is highly ranked (for now). But I have a feeling if a team doesn't take him early on he's on of those that could slide to the second round.

And the Browns run an Air Coryell offense. That calls for a big armed QB that can move a little and at least a 6'3'' frame. Think Joe Flacco. I've always thought that if Cleveland takes a QB in this draft it will either be Carr and if not then Mettenberger (unlikely now since he tore his ACL). Carr is literally the picture of what Chudzinski and Norv Turner are looking for in their QB.

True, but Cleveland has the Jets and Steelers at the end of their season. The projection right now for them at the end of the season is 6 - 10. Many actually listed the Jaguars as the same projected record of 6 - 10. Cleveland has an SOS of 0.493 while the Jaguars are 0.521. So even if we were tied with Cleveland at the end of the season, we would still pick ahead of him. Unless the Jaguars surprise everyone and win the last 4 games.

[Suzuku]

Cleveland has pretty much given up while the Steelers are still trying. They could beat the Jets but I don't see them beating the Steelers especially with Brandon Weeden as QB. I don't think they've won a game yet with Weeden starting.

[ReaperxKingx]

Originally Posted by Suzuku

Cleveland has pretty much given up while the Steelers are still trying. They could beat the Jets but I don't see them beating the Steelers especially with Brandon Weeden as QB. I don't think they've won a game yet with Weeden starting.

The current status of Weeden is up for debate. He is not the future of the Browns so if he does horrible in the Patriots game, I can see the Browns placing him on the bench afterwards.

Also, Suzuku, does it really matter what happens in our draft now? This is David Caldwell who is drafting for us, not Gene Smith, David Caldwell was a central part when the Colts first drafted Peyton Manning 1998. Then in 2008 with the Falcons also played a critical role in drafting Matt Ryan who was said not to be an incredible prospect and was around the top 10 or middle in many draft boards.

That just shows you how much expertise that Caldwell has for scouting Quarterbacks. Whoever David Caldwell draft for Quarterback and all the other positions, I am satisfied with because of his track record. I place my absolute trust that he will draft the best we can get at any round.

[Suzuku]

The reason Weeden is starting now is because all their back-ups are hurt. Campbell got a concussion two weeks ago. The Browns just can't escape Weeden.

Yeah you're right, which is why I don't think we'll draft a QB this year, or at least not one in the earlier rounds, if we miss Bridgewater and Carr. We'll just have to trade up next year if we're able to (or have to at all lol).

To be honest there's a scenario where we might be worse next year than we were this year if we don't get a QB. They'll probably just focus on improving the defense this year if we don't get a QB, and if that happens and Marcedes and MJD leave, our offense could be worse than it is now next year.

[Suzuku]

ESPN Sportscenter just confirmed Winston will not be charged.

[ReaperxKingx]

Originally Posted by Suzuku

The reason Weeden is starting now is because all their back-ups are hurt. Campbell got a concussion two weeks ago. The Browns just can't escape Weeden.

Yeah you're right, which is why I don't think we'll draft a QB this year, or at least not one in the earlier rounds, if we miss Bridgewater and Carr. We'll just have to trade up next year if we're able to (or have to at all lol).

To be honest there's a scenario where we might be worse next year than we were this year if we don't get a QB. They'll probably just focus on improving the defense this year if we don't get a QB, and if that happens and Marcedes and MJD leave, our offense could be worse than it is now next year.

I trust Caldwell whoever he drafts. If we pass on Quarterback in the first round and draft in later rounds, I trust his judgement.

Suzuku, what happened to your optimism these past posts?

Originally Posted by Suzuku

ESPN Sportscenter just confirmed Winston will not be charged.

Lucky for him and FSU, nevertheless, this will forever be a bad mark on his draft profile. Even if he didn't do it, just being in suspicion is enough to warrant second thoughts and deeper analysis on his personality.

[Suzuku]

What do you mean? I'm still optimistic. Just don't think we'll be drafting a QB after looking at the way the draft seems to be unfolding. Next year will be a better QB crop anyway with Mariota, Hundley, and Jameis...and I'm pretty sure Jameis will be more inclined to declare after having already won a Heisman and national championship, if not two of each at that point.

While I think the offense may be worse I think the defense will start forming into something that looks stout. I'd rather not draft a QB this year if we miss out on Bridgewater and Carr anyway, focus on the defense, and then have a chance to trade up for Jameis or draft Mariota or Hundley next year. We could bolster all levels of the defense this year, solidify the O-Line, and pretty much immediately fix the offense in 2015 by getting one of the QBs.

[ReaperxKingx]

Originally Posted by Suzuku

What do you mean? I'm still optimistic. Just don't think we'll be drafting a QB after looking at the way the draft seems to be unfolding. Next year will be a better QB crop anyway with Mariota, Hundley, and Jameis...and I'm pretty sure Jameis will be more inclined to declare after having already won a Heisman and national championship, if not two of each at that point.

While I think the offense may be worse I think the defense will start forming into something that looks stout. I'd rather not draft a QB this year if we miss out on Bridgewater and Carr anyway, focus on the defense, and then have a chance to trade up for Jameis or draft Mariota or Hundley next year. We could bolster all levels of the defense this year, solidify the O-Line, and pretty much immediately fix the offense in 2015 by getting one of the QBs.

That is what I mean, I know Quarterback is the most important position but the way you are going on seems to be all worst case scenarios for the Jaguars to just obtain one guy. You can discuss things like what the Jaguars are going to on the other rounds. Like are the Jaguars going to go heavy on the offensive line or defensive line? Are the Jaguars going to select a pass rusher in the first round instead of a Quarterback? There are more positions to worry about.

Currently now, NFL listed the Jaguars top needs are OT, DE, and QB. You can discuss who would fit those roles or discuss there are more important needs than those positions.

Also, who will the Jaguars target in the off season in free agency.


As for the Quarterback, it doesn't have to be the best guy selected. It can be the guy who has the physical attributes that we can mold. Look at Nick Foles who was drafted in the 3rd round of 2012 who have suddenly been in the talk of being a top 15 Quarterback. We can mold a Quarterback, its a painful process but can work. If anyone can find a product of a Great Quarterback in the 2nd or 3rd round then it is Caldwell.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Suzuku

Disagree. The only thing they were worried about was if he'd be charged. Now that it's looking like he won't be I doubt there will be that many "purists" to throw off the vote

I hope he wins but I completely disagree with you, if he wins he barely wins IMO... But we shall see...we shall see if a black inner city kid who alledgey raped a girl gets this prestigious award...we shall see...

[Suzuku]

Originally Posted by ReaperxKingx

That is what I mean, I know Quarterback is the most important position but the way you are going on seems to be all worst case scenarios for the Jaguars to just obtain one guy. You can discuss things like what the Jaguars are going to on the other rounds. Like are the Jaguars going to go heavy on the offensive line or defensive line? Are the Jaguars going to select a pass rusher in the first round instead of a Quarterback? There are more positions to worry about.

Currently now, NFL listed the Jaguars top needs are OT, DE, and QB. You can discuss who would fit those roles or discuss there are more important needs than those positions.

Also, who will the Jaguars target in the off season in free agency.


As for the Quarterback, it doesn't have to be the best guy selected. It can be the guy who has the physical attributes that we can mold. Look at Nick Foles who was drafted in the 3rd round of 2012 who have suddenly been in the talk of being a top 15 Quarterback. We can mold a Quarterback, its a painful process but can work. If anyone can find a product of a Great Quarterback in the 2nd or 3rd round then it is Caldwell.

I'm not sure what we're disagreeing on. I'm saying there are more positions to worry about than QB (particularly on the defensive side) and they will address those. All I'm saying is, while I expect the defense to be better and begin looking like what you'd expect by hiring the Defensive Coordinator of the Seattle Seahawks, there's a chance the offense will be worse if we don't get a QB, which if we miss Carr I don't think we will. QBs like Nick Foles and Russell Wilson are extremely rare, they're not the rule. History shows drafting a QB outside the first round doesn't lead to them being a franchise player often. The thing people were worried about with Foles was his height and if he could handle pressure, and they didn't see him as being worth a top 2 round pick. Same with Wilson. There is no one like that in this draft, whose only real knock is their undesirable height.

I agree, if Caldwell gets a guy in round 3 or something it's because he sees something in him and thinks he can be molded...but I'm honestly not expecting it and even if that happens you don't start a QB you draft in the round 3 anyway.

I'm optimistic for the future, I'm just not expecting our QB problem to be fixed this year. i'd rather they focus on defense and get a guy next year anyway.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

I hope he wins but I completely disagree with you, if he wins he barely wins IMO... But we shall see...we shall see if a black inner city kid who alledgey raped a girl gets this prestigious award...we shall see...

he's going to win in a landslide.

[ReaperxKingx]

Originally Posted by Suzuku

I'm not sure what we're disagreeing on. I'm saying there are more positions to worry about than QB (particularly on the defensive side) and they will address those. All I'm saying is, while I expect the defense to be better and begin looking like what you'd expect by hiring the Defensive Coordinator of the Seattle Seahawks, there's a chance the offense will be worse if we don't get a QB, which if we miss Carr I don't think we will. QBs like Nick Foles and Russell Wilson are extremely rare, they're not the rule. History shows drafting a QB outside the first round doesn't lead to them being a franchise player often. The thing people were worried about with Foles was his height and if he could handle pressure, and they didn't see him as being worth a top 2 round pick. Same with Wilson. There is no one like that in this draft, whose only real knock is their undesirable height.

I agree, if Caldwell gets a guy in round 3 or something it's because he sees something in him and thinks he can be molded...but I'm honestly not expecting it and even if that happens you don't start a QB you draft in the round 3 anyway.

I'm optimistic for the future, I'm just not expecting our QB problem to be fixed this year. i'd rather they focus on defense and get a guy next year anyway.

We weren't really disagreeing about anything except for the Quarterback position I believe. We been back and forth a lot so lets try end this quickly since the game is about to be on.

We seems to have different expectations on the Quarterback position, especially concerning the draft. While I am feeling good or have confident that we can find our franchise Quarterback in the 2014 draft, you feel that there isn't a clear cut one (not that I blame you) in there yet have faith that whoever Caldwell drafts may have a chance. That is just our basic disagreement, opposite expectation kind of builds a conflict.

In a nutshell, other than the Quarterback position, we both have optimistic views on the franchise on all the other positions. We have the same views of the future, that things are finally changing.



PS: Also, what do you think about the development of this year's rookies under Bradley?

[Suzuku]

Yeah, I just don't think Caldwell will draft a QB if Bridgewater and Carr are gone and Manziel is not available in the second round. If he does I trust him to believe that QB could develop into something down the road, but I just don't see that kind of QB with latent potential in this draft other than Mettenberger who won't be able to play or learn anything at all next year with a torn ACL. I mean you look at the developmental QBs like David Fales, Garoppolo, Boyd, McCarron, Murray...none of them strike me as Foles or Wilson type QBs that will surprise everyone in the league because teams passed on them due to their height or concerns of how they operate under-pressure. They just look like career back-ups or unspectacular game managers.

Anyway as for the rookies, Bradley's obviously coaching them up and their developing well, especially Cyprien and Gratz. Reminds me of (surprise) what Carroll does at Seattle. He takes second and third round corners and coaches them up to be physical and play above their talent level. We should have a pretty good secondary next year and a great one in 2015, I think. I would love for them to add talent to the linebackers or D-Line, which is another reason I won't be disappointed in not getting a QB. We can focus on bolstering those levels of the defense by drafting Barr or CJ Mosely (not throwing in Clowney since like the QBs he'll likely be gone). The D could be looking stout in 2015 if they focus on it now ahead of drafting a QB.

Next year's draft is just a better QB pool than this one at the top. I'd much rather we improve the defense, suck another year on offense, and get Jameis, Mariota, or Hundley, which I think will happen. Next year would be the time to trade up for a QB I think, if we're not in the 1-5 range in the draft again.

[Dilla]

Bridgewater isn't having a great game (and his offense isn't helping), but he just pulled some Houdini shit on Louisville's last drive.

[ReaperxKingx]

Originally Posted by Suzuku

Yeah, I just don't think Caldwell will draft a QB if Bridgewater and Carr are gone and Manziel is not available in the second round. If he does I trust him to believe that QB could develop into something down the road, but I just don't see that kind of QB with latent potential in this draft other than Mettenberger who won't be able to play or learn anything at all next year with a torn ACL. I mean you look at the developmental QBs like David Fales, Garoppolo, Boyd, McCarron, Murray...none of them strike me as Foles or Wilson type QBs that will surprise everyone in the league because teams passed on them due to their height or concerns of how they operate under-pressure. They just look like career back-ups or unspectacular game managers.

True, I agree there is no clear cut that just screams "I am special, pick me pick up". So there is nothing to disagree about there. Also, it seems like our chase for Derek Carr is taken an unexpected and unfortunate turn. Until the broadcasters said it on the commentary of the game, I did not know that the Rams were also having trouble in the Quarterback position. I thought that Sam Bradford was doing well, but I don't watch the Rams that much.

Did you know about that for some time? It totally changed the situation for us. It pretty much rules out any possibility of drafting a Quarterback in the first round. It increases the chance that we may need to trade down and gain more picks.

Another option that is looking great is to draft our pass rusher of the future in Jadeveon Clowney. We then can start addressing a prospect Quarterback in the later rounds. Strengthen our offensive line would be the next thing. Both the offensive guards needs improvement, and is likely that good ole Meester is likely to retire so we are in a need for a center as well.

Originally Posted by Suzuku

Anyway as for the rookies, Bradley's obviously coaching them up and their developing well, especially Cyprien and Gratz. Reminds me of (surprise) what Carroll does at Seattle. He takes second and third round corners and coaches them up to be physical and play above their talent level. We should have a pretty good secondary next year and a great one in 2015, I think. I would love for them to add talent to the linebackers or D-Line, which is another reason I won't be disappointed in not getting a QB. We can focus on bolstering those levels of the defense by drafting Barr or CJ Mosely (not throwing in Clowney since like the QBs he'll likely be gone). The D could be looking stout in 2015 if they focus on it now ahead of drafting a QB.

Cyprien is looking like a top 35 Strong Safety and Gratz is slowly getting there, he is physical and aggressive but still need a lot of work on zone coverage and needs a bit of man to man coverage. As well, we have developed good special team players in Demetrius McCray. Pleasantly Bradley developed Josh Evans into a solid, not good or great yet, but solid Free Safety who will be improving as time goes on. I am a bit kind of worried about Denard Robinson though seeing he is a explosive playmaker, he should be in special teams on Kick Returns. Luke Joeckal was said to be in the top 25 offensive tackles before he got injuried. He is going to get better from here on out once he return next year, he will return to his natural position and will get him in the offensive line next year. Last and not least, Ace Sanders. What words to describe, realistically, I expected Ace to be just a punt and kick returner. Now he is a dangerous slot receiver of the future. He is not there yet in being known as the next Wez Walker, but who knows, two years from now he might with the way he is progressing.

Originally Posted by Suzuku

Next year's draft is just a better QB pool than this one at the top. I'd much rather we improve the defense, suck another year on offense, and get Jameis, Mariota, or Hundley, which I think will happen. Next year would be the time to trade up for a QB I think, if we're not in the 1-5 range in the draft again.

I agree there will be a better Quarterback pool, however, I am kind of against trading up unless he obtain another first round pick.

If Carr is gone, than Manziel is the only option if he falls into the second round which is unlikely. However, Hundley and Zach Mettenberger could be good prospects in the second especially if Zach Mettenberger falls into the 3rd or 4th round if teams are very wary of his ACL then we should get him. He is set to return on March so he is likely not going to miss any training camps and such.

[Suzuku]

Originally Posted by ReaperxKingx

True, I agree there is no clear cut that just screams "I am special, pick me pick up". So there is nothing to disagree about there. Also, it seems like our chase for Derek Carr is taken an unexpected and unfortunate turn. Until the broadcasters said it on the commentary of the game, I did not know that the Rams were also having trouble in the Quarterback position. I thought that Sam Bradford was doing well, but I don't watch the Rams that much.

Did you know about that for some time? It totally changed the situation for us. It pretty much rules out any possibility of drafting a Quarterback in the first round. It increases the chance that we may need to trade down and gain more picks.

Another option that is looking great is to draft our pass rusher of the future in Jadeveon Clowney. We then can start addressing a prospect Quarterback in the later rounds. Strengthen our offensive line would be the next thing. Both the offensive guards needs improvement, and is likely that good ole Meester is likely to retire so we are in a need for a center as well.

Yeah I knew about the Rams QB problems, Bradford is not the number 1 prospect they drafted and he gets hurt a lot. It's just not a sure thing they draft a QB because they still may be willing to give Bradford a shot since he hasn't been terrible or anything. So yeah, that's another team that could take a QB.

And I think you're overestimating where our draft position will be, which is why I never thought we'd be getting a QB in the earlier rounds. I'm looking at us right now being around the 6-8 range, Clowney will be long gone then. With that positioning, Caldwell will either draft a linebacker like CJ Mosely or Khalil Mack, Sammy Watkins at WR, a OG/OT like Cyril Richardson or Jake Matthews (even though he has a good chance to be gone by then too), or like you said, trade back. I'm thinking we trade back at this point since we have so many holes to fill.

And it's not just that there is no special talent yelling take me, it's that the guys on the board just look unspectacular all together. You could clearly see with Wilson and Foles that they were being overlooked due to their size and perceived wilting under pressure in Foles' case, even though they clearly had great mechanics and skills for the position. None of the dark horse QBs in this draft look to have that, and two that could have now won't be able to play the 2014 season all together. Fales, Garopollo, McCarron, Boyd are the dark horses...and none of them strike me as Foles or Wilson types except maybe Boyd and that's a big maybe, and even then I can only see him being solid rather than taking the league by storm or something. We can hope Manziel slides to the second and take a chance on him I guess. But if not I see us taking Fales or Garopollo in the third round, and if we don't do that then we probably aren't taking a QB at all.

Cyprien is looking like a top 35 Strong Safety and Gratz is slowly getting there, he is physical and aggressive but still need a lot of work on zone coverage and needs a bit of man to man coverage. As well, we have developed good special team players in Demetrius McCray. Pleasantly Bradley developed Josh Evans into a solid, not good or great yet, but solid Free Safety who will be improving as time goes on. I am a bit kind of worried about Denard Robinson though seeing he is a explosive playmaker, he should be in special teams on Kick Returns. Luke Joeckal was said to be in the top 25 offensive tackles before he got injuried. He is going to get better from here on out once he return next year, he will return to his natural position and will get him in the offensive line next year. Last and not least, Ace Sanders. What words to describe, realistically, I expected Ace to be just a punt and kick returner. Now he is a dangerous slot receiver of the future. He is not there yet in being known as the next Wez Walker, but who knows, two years from now he might with the way he is progressing.

yeah I'm really impressed with Sanders, he's developing into a great playmaker for the slot position and punt return, just like you said. Everyone is talking about Tayvon Austin but lowkey we have our own Tavon Austin on this team with Sanders. He doesn't have 4 touchdowns like him, but otherwise he's keeping pace for pace with Austin, which is saying something considering Austin went 8th in the draft and Sander went 101st. I really hope he continues to develop and turns into that explosive playmaker that he's showing the beginning of. Just imagine if we had a real QB on this team with our group of receivers man. When Blackmon is on the field he has the looks of a top 10 wide receiver, Shorts is a great second guy, Sanders in the slot is just icing on the cake. Argh, I really wish we could hit on a freaking QB. :/

Denard has the skill to be a good tailback, but he has to get used to the position first I think. I really wish he could catch so they could test out how he does with screen passes and being able to run into the open field...but he just can't catch. But, he's only just converted to the position this year, most guys spend their entire playing careers getting to know the RB position and getting the mentality of it. I think we can't judge Denard until next year. With MJD teaching him, hopefully he'll have learned how to catch and has a better feel for tailback. He really has all the tools to be a great tailback.

I agree there will be a better Quarterback pool, however, I am kind of against trading up unless he obtain another first round pick.

If Carr is gone, than Manziel is the only option if he falls into the second round which is unlikely. However, Hundley and Zach Mettenberger could be good prospects in the second especially if Zach Mettenberger falls into the 3rd or 4th round if teams are very wary of his ACL then we should get him. He is set to return on March so he is likely not going to miss any training camps and such.

You would be against trading up to get Winston? Naw man, I'm against trading up to almost always, but Winston is the type of player you don't pass up if you have the chance to get him and are looking for your guy at QB. And Winston would be perfect for this team. Just look at what he preaches in games and how he carries himself, he's literally the black Gus Bradley. He'd be the perfect extension of Bradley on offense. Just add in the fact he's the QB for FSU and it's icing on the cake as far as appealing to fans here in Jax. Not only that, if we got Winston the media would HAVE to start paying attention to us. We wouldn't be the ugly stepchild of the NFL anymore, it would be a great way to bolster the franchise into national attention. And by the time we got Winston make no mistake, we'd be ready for a playoff run and the only thing we'd be missing is our QB. I'd give anything in the draft to get Winston, even if it meant giving up our primary second and third round picks that year or a first round pick the next year. Winston would have that much of an impact on this team.

And what do you mean Mettenberger is set to return in March? An ACL injury is usually a year long injury, Mettenberger would miss the entire 2014 season. I can't see a team that needs a QB drafting him. It will probably be some team that already has a QB that drafts him as a developmental player for the future, like the Pats.

And I'm really doubting Hundley declares. I think he's been told that if he stays in school another year and develops he will be a solid first round pick and not a fringe first or early second rounder.