Game of Thrones

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Hitenma

What? Officially Joffrey is Robert's eldest son, the bastards do not count.
No, Joffrey had the best claim to the throne, and after his death Tommen does.

Well first of all, why would "the bastards" not count if they're actually his children and Joffrey isn't?

As for Stannis, his claim is, if the facts are considered, the lawful one. Robert had no trueborn children (it's obvious who the father of Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen is) and Stannis' claim would have legal precedence over the bastard sons by Westeros (and most RL monarchical) law. But those bastards have a better claim than any of Cersei's children do, as they are at least Robert's children.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Well first of all, why would "the bastards" not count if they're actually his children and Joffrey isn't?

Because they don't have blood tests, so as far as anyone alive knows that would say anything, Joffrey was his oldest son. The bastards don't count because anyone who knew about them when it mattered was dead or wants the the throne for themselves.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by GDB

Because they don't have blood tests, so as far as anyone alive knows that would say anything, Joffrey was his oldest son. The bastards don't count because anyone who knew about them when it mattered was dead or wants the the throne for themselves.

You sound very confident. Secrets like that (and this is not a book spoiler, just a general observation) have a way of getting out no matter how much the affected parties try to stamp them out - it's like catching smoke in a fishing net.

[Hitenma]

Rumor or whatever means nothing.
You need hard proof showing that who Joffrey's father is (which is impossible to get), otherwise Joffrey is automatically Robert's son.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Hitenma

Rumor or whatever means nothing.
You need hard proof showing that who Joffrey's father is (which is impossible to get), otherwise Joffrey is automatically Robert's son.

This isn't some situation where you need irrefutable evidence to "prove" your case. Why do you think Tywin has been working so tirelessly for years to try and keep rumors about Jaime's children contained? If these bastards are no threat to the status quo why did even jon Arryn work so hard to cover up their existence (while stashing them for potential further use)? They know the damage these things can do in the court of public opinion, and if the right people were to testify either about that or about Robert's illegitimate children, citing first-hand knowledge themselves, in this time and place that could be enough.

[Child_of_Sierra]

I forgot exactly which book discussed it but Westeros has a clear cut law regarding bastards:

They have no right of inheritance. Everyone might know that Jon Snow is Eddard Stark's son but he'll never inherit Winterfell even if all of Ned's children die (and he was not a member of the Night Watch). Same is true for all of the late King's bastards. So the only legitimate claimant would be Stannis.

I've skipped some episodes of the TV series so this may not be the case in the TV version?

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

This isn't some situation where you need irrefutable evidence to "prove" your case. Why do you think Tywin has been working so tirelessly for years to try and keep rumors about Jaime's children contained? If these bastards are no threat to the status quo why did even jon Arryn work so hard to cover up their existence (while stashing them for potential further use)? They know the damage these things can do in the court of public opinion, and if the right people were to testify either about that or about Robert's illegitimate children, citing first-hand knowledge themselves, in this time and place that could be enough.

To add to this point. There were real life precedents where rumors had been the undoing of people who were the subjects of those. Rumors about the Templar Knights' heresy and homosexuality were enough to bring their downfall, the men of the King of France having worked well enough to have people believing it.

Then you had the accusations of incest againt Marie-Antoinette that definitely turned the courtroom against her.

It didn't matter if they are true or not.

[milan kyuubi]

Originally Posted by Hitenma

Rumor or whatever means nothing.
You need hard proof showing that who Joffrey's father is (which is impossible to get), otherwise Joffrey is automatically Robert's son.

Coulndn't they do the same thing Ned did? All Roberts line had black hair. But Joffrey had blond hair.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Cersei was called the Queen Regent though, it was repeated several times this episode.

As I said in my post, I was using real life as a means of explaining succession rights. For example, if Prince Charles and William were to die tomorrow in some horrific accident, Duchess Catherine and Prince William's son would be the future King, but because Duchess Catherine is not Royalty, she would not be Regent, the right would fall to Prince Harry since he is currently fourth in line for the throne.

Ned was appointed Regent for Joffery after Robert died (Robert even signed it into law), but Cersei stole that appointment from Ned when she orchestrated her own mini-coup against the former regime, so now she is Regent but there is no specific reason she has to be Regent again now that Joffery is dead. The Small Council will appoint whomever they feel can best lead the country till Tommen comes of age...well, they'll appoint whomever is most powerful (which should be Tywin).

That being said, I am unsure why anyone would continue to call her Regent unless Joffery was not in charge, or the showrunners were using Regent similarly to how former Presidents are still addressed as such (which is not the case with royal titles). Whatever the case, the moment Joffery and Margaery married, Cersei was no longer Queen, she was a Dowager.

[Artful Dodger]

Originally Posted by james0246

... but there is no specific reason she has to be Regent again now that Joffery is dead.

Oh yes there is lol. The reason will be because she says so! She sure didn't look like she enjoyed being called "Lady Cersei" by prince Obryn. In all seriousness though, since this assassination happened so soon after the wedding, I'm thinking things will just revert right back to the way they were working before --Tywin calling the shots, Cersei as queen regent, and perhaps they'll appoint Tommen when he comes of age. Nothing has even been changed yet, so I seriously doubt Cersei or especially Tywin will be changing titles or anything.

Hopefully they'll wisen up and wait till he comes to an at least half-decent age though. Hopefully they've learned all too well what can happen when you hand over that type of power to some adolescent spoiled brat.

[Hitenma]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

This isn't some situation where you need irrefutable evidence to "prove" your case. Why do you think Tywin has been working so tirelessly for years to try and keep rumors about Jaime's children contained? If these bastards are no threat to the status quo why did even jon Arryn work so hard to cover up their existence (while stashing them for potential further use)? They know the damage these things can do in the court of public opinion, and if the right people were to testify either about that or about Robert's illegitimate children, citing first-hand knowledge themselves, in this time and place that could be enough.

That's when Robert's alive. Such rumors can make him execute Cersei and others.
Now the rumors are meaningless unless Stannis wins the war.

Originally Posted by Sheba

To add to this point. There were real life precedents where rumors had been the undoing of people who were the subjects of those. Rumors about the Templar Knights' heresy and homosexuality were enough to bring their downfall, the men of the King of France having worked well enough to have people believing it.

Then you had the accusations of incest againt Marie-Antoinette that definitely turned the courtroom against her.

It didn't matter if they are true or not.

Rumors are only good when they fit the purpose of the ones in power.
The Lannisters are in power now so any rumors against them is meaningless.

Originally Posted by milan kyuubi

Coulndn't they do the same thing Ned did? All Roberts line had black hair. But Joffrey had blond hair.

Cersei has blond hair.
Can you prove that the son of a black haired father and blond haired mother must have black hair?
Using Westeros-level knowledge and technology of course.

[ChainLegacy]

There's a reason Ned was eliminated beyond the simple fact that he was antagonistic to the Lannisters. He knew Joffrey was not Robert's legitimate heir. He didn't have a DNA test in hand, but Cersei saw the writing on the wall if Ned were not to be silenced. The only difference now is there's no one barking up that tree... for the time being.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

This isn't some situation where you need irrefutable evidence to "prove" your case. Why do you think Tywin has been working so tirelessly for years to try and keep rumors about Jaime's children contained? If these bastards are no threat to the status quo why did even jon Arryn work so hard to cover up their existence (while stashing them for potential further use)? They know the damage these things can do in the court of public opinion, and if the right people were to testify either about that or about Robert's illegitimate children, citing first-hand knowledge themselves, in this time and place that could be enough.

The bastards weren't a big deal because they were bastards. EVERYONE knew that Robert had to have a mountain of bastards due to all his whoring around. And nobody was legally worried about them since bastards have no inheritance rights, and beings the offspring of common whores, they don't exactly have the resources or patronage to give a shot at right of conquest or anything.


Roberts bastards collectively were a big deal (to the Lannisters and Jon Arryn) because there were TONS of them, and all of them to a one were dark haired like their old man. Edd even noted that one of them (Gendry) was a dead ringer for Robert when he was younger. This is in marked contrast to Roberts "legitimate" children, who are about as blonde haired Aryan as they come. When combined with the genealogical records that indicate that the Baratheon line seems to ALWAYS produce dark haired offspring (even when paired up with blondes like the Lannisters), it created a very compelling argument that Cersei's children were all illegitimate, which is kinda sorta absolutely high treason.



The Bastards were being sheltered/tracked by Arryn because they'd be vital evidence in exposing Cersei's adultery and the illegitimacy of her offspring. No one was seriously contemplating putting any of them on the Iron Throne.

Originally Posted by Hitenma

That's when Robert's alive. Such rumors can make him execute Cersei and others.
Now the rumors are meaningless unless Stannis wins the war.

Not really rumors at this point. Staniss sent Ravens all across the land proclaiming that Jeofrey was a bastard, and that Ned got beheaded for trying to expose it. Though since the Lannisters managed to take control of Kings Landing, that gave them a strong enough power base to attack this idea as being "enemy propaganda". Whether Jeoffrey and his siblings are bastards or not now is a matter of political allegiance than anything factual.

As has been

Originally Posted by Hitenma

Cersei has blond hair.
Can you prove that the son of a black haired father and blond haired mother must have black hair?
Using Westeros-level knowledge and technology of course.

It's not that they had blonde haired children that seemed suspicious. It's that Robert had DOZENS of other dark haired children with countless women, yet somehow popped out three Hitler Youth poster child blondes with Cersei. And again. There were baratheon genealogical records that indicated Baratheon offspring being very dark as the overwhelming norm, even when coupled with hyper blonde Lannisters.

I suppose to modern people used to DNA evidence solving everything this might not seem absolute enough, but to unscientific medieval persons, this is the most concrete proof they can imagine.

[james0246]

I do wonder if Tywin knows of his children's...proclivities. I am unsure if there is any specific indication that he knows for sure that his grandchildren are a little more closely related to him than they should be, or even if he cares. A Lannister on the throne is his desire, so I expect an inbred hick of a Lannister, while not ideal, would still sufficient for Tywin's ambitions. Still, I wonder if he knows...

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by james0246

I do wonder if Tywin knows of his children's...proclivities. I am unsure if there is any specific indication that he knows for sure that his grandchildren are a little more closely related to him than they should be, or even if he cares. A Lannister on the throne is his desire, so I expect an inbred hick of a Lannister, while not ideal, would still sufficient for Tywin's ambitions. Still, I wonder if he knows...

I would bet a ton of Valyrian steel he knows. He's talked wryly about keeping a lid on the "vicious lies" about Cersei and Jaime. Tywin is surely one of the smartest and most practical men in Westeros - there's no way he doesn't know what's going on.

Indeed, if I would say Tywin has one blind spot, it's Tyrion. Not that he doesn't realize Tyrion is the smartest of his children - he's grudgingly admitted it - but his hatred for Tyrion over his wife's death doesn't allow him to utilize Tyrion's talents to anything like their maximum potential value to him.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by james0246

I do wonder if Tywin knows of his children's...proclivities. I am unsure if there is any specific indication that he knows for sure that his grandchildren are a little more closely related to him than they should be, or even if he cares. A Lannister on the throne is his desire, so I expect an inbred hick of a Lannister, while not ideal, would still sufficient for Tywin's ambitions. Still, I wonder if he knows...

Honestly? I'd say yes. The allegation about Jeoffrey being illegitimate is out in the wild, and matches up too well with Robert/Cersei/Jamie's histories with each-other, as well as the children appearance. Further, I think Tywinn understands that Eddard Stark wouldn't be the kind of man to rebel against the Iron Throne unless he believed he had a "just" reason for doing so.

YouTube

https://youtu.be/V-I4O2UdTGQ

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

He'll never acknowledge it though. Not even privately to chastise his two oldest children for doing something so risky. That's how toxic this thing is. Even without the Iron Throne, it would see two of his children, and three of his grand children executed. And Tywinn simply won't accept that outcome.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Indeed, if I would say Tywin has one blind spot, it's Tyrion. Not that he doesn't realize Tywin is the smartest of his children - he's grudgingly admitted it - but his hatred for Tyrion over his wife's death doesn't allow him to utilize Tyrion's talents to anything like their maximum potential value to him.

He's also rather guilty of letting favoritism cloud his judgement with Jamie as well. He REALLY wants to see himself in Jamie, when really the most Jamie is in reality is an exceptional warrior/field commander. He's not a strategic leader, bureaucrat, or schemer like Tywin is.

His hope in Jamie keeps him from more than begrudgingly accepting that Tyrion is the most competent of all his children, and the most similar to himself.

[Guardian Enzo]

I think the interesting question is whether Tywin would still have hated Tyrion if he hadn't "killed" his mother during childbirth. Would he have been able to see past the physical and understand how brilliant Tyrion was if not for that tragedy?

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I think the interesting question is whether Tywin would still have hated Tyrion if he hadn't "killed" his mother during childbirth. Would he have been able to see past the physical and understand how brilliant Tyrion was if not for that tragedy?

Perhaps. It's important to remember there's allot of social stigma in this kind of society due to physical deformities, so even a distinguished house isn't gonna be too thrilled at the prospect of having a dwarf son.

Still. Tyrion's mother surviving the birth probably would have done allot to ease Tywin off his hatred of Tyrion. I can't imagine it helping with Cersei, since Cersei is just sorta uniformly hostile and bitchy to EVERYONE.

[sunset]

Now that Tywin dishouned Jamie, does that mean all his hopes of family continuity rest in Tyrion and Sansa?

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by sunset

Now that Tywin dishouned Jamie, does that mean all his hopes of family continuity rest in Tyrion and Sansa?

I don't know if he's disowned him officially in anyway.