2014-06-15, 23:22 | Link #2041 | ||
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Which is incredibly silly when you stop and think about it. A fandom that engages in this sort of thing arguably deserves to be ribbed a bit.
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As for "effectively official"... Really? Madoka never reciprocated anything but friendship to Homura. Sayaka never reciprocated much of anything period to Kyouko. In the TV series I mean. Fans went and ran with KyouSaya on very little canon basis when you stop to think about it.
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2014-06-15, 23:32 | Link #2042 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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I really, really don't think that any of the staff "hate" the fans. Pretty much everything that feels like fanfiction in Rebellion feels that way because it's a nod to all the fanworks that the series spawned... while it toys with the typical fan interpretations somewhat, it doesn't feel like it's doing so maliciously so much as playfully, Homura's actions aside.
I think you guys have the wrong idea about Urobuchi, in particular. Quote:
Ume ships them too, for what it's worth. |
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2014-06-15, 23:39 | Link #2043 | |||
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2014-06-15 at 23:53. |
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2014-06-16, 07:58 | Link #2044 |
Romance Expert
Join Date: Feb 2012
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^you can say that again.
im an avid yuri fan, doesnt quite show here though, but if you visited mangafox forums you'll see me pushing forward with a yuri signature. anyways, while the pairings in madoka magica have plenty of potential, got say that there's not really that much of a proper relationship you can say. hell, throughout the anime series, the only pairing in my head was madokaXsayaka, the others ive got to say, didnt really pique my interest or at least didnt get me impressed. heck, this whole shipping thing in madoka magica, ive got to say, is really causing a decay on the series. you know how sayaka's got her own brand of haters? well, would you be surprised that a lot of those are kyoukoXsayaka shippers, or at least kyouko fans? yes, that indeed. I even have a friend here who loathes sayaka as a whole, with her biggest reasons being that sayaka apparently is at fault for getting kyouko killed, and that she should have gotten up with kyouko. this is another reason for me not to support their ship, as its only for kyouko and not for sayaka. oh sure, it may be healthier, but this isnt what sayaka likes/wanted to do. among the pairings really, the ones who were more close to actually end up going somewhere, would be madokaXsayaka(while in their heaven) and mamiXkyouko(if you've read the different story to learn about their history).
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2014-06-16, 11:09 | Link #2045 | |
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I agree, it's wrong to pretend that I am wrong.
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The origin for the text is from Hulk Hogan, whose character made a villainous turn which decided that everything good about the show belonged to him to create an angry reaction. At the point of its creation, nobody had imagined such a thing possible as it was a severe contrast to the existing character. Not that you should care at this point, but I do indeed make tons of inane references and shouldn't really get mad when people don't get them.
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2014-06-16 at 11:43. |
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2014-06-18, 11:54 | Link #2046 |
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Join Date: Jan 2013
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Yeah, I have to agree here. In the show itself, Sayaka's attitude towards Kyouko was almost always negative, except right at the end of episode 8 when she was too miserable to acually express anger at anyone. (And I guess she was more okay towards Kyouko when by the epilogue, but they didn't actually have any scenes together).
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2014-06-19, 08:55 | Link #2047 |
Romance Expert
Join Date: Feb 2012
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the whole scenery in the first quarter was pretty much catering to the audience rather than for a good reason. it was pretty much due to the fake world though so I ended up letting that part go instead of criticizing it.
and the scene with sayaka saying she regretted kyouko could be interpreted as just her knowing the extent kyouko has done as well as spending time with her... while its also pretty easy to tell that kyouko is a lot more affected by sayaka, so I can see it being a one sided matter. as a side note, this does say quite a bit about homura she pictured a world where kyousuke and hitomi got together while kyouko was made to end up with sayaka there....
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2014-06-19, 18:57 | Link #2048 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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This is actually in the show and as a result you really shouldn't try to argue that the pairing isn't supposed to be taken seriously.
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2014-06-20, 15:47 | Link #2050 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Clearly the exception is when claiming otherwise supports your argument. |
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2014-06-20, 16:20 | Link #2051 |
On a mission
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Kyosaya only makes sense in the movie, as series Sayaka was already declining into a witch and had no chance to reciprocate. It is entirely possible it was one sided from Kyoko to Sayaka, since Kyoko really felt bad for her, started to slowly relate to the situation and did not want Sayaka to die alone.
On the other hand, the movie has Sayaka retaining her knowledge of past events, so now she has a chance to go over her feelings. Personally, I think this possible pairing was presented better than the other one.
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2014-06-20, 16:21 | Link #2052 |
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Join Date: Jul 2013
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Two people whose character arcs closely parallel each other in the manner shown in the series doesn't equal a canon romantic relationship, it equals effective storytelling.
Yes, Kyoko and Sayaka care for each other. Yes, Kyoko wants to save her at all costs. Yes, they have official art where it appears the former is trying to save the latter from drowning through physical contact. This does not mean that they have an official romantic relationship. You can ship them if you like, but just because two girls care for each other does not mean their relationship is romantic, especially when the reasons for how much they care about each other are outlined elsewhere within the series, and especially when one of them has romantic feelings for another character, even if they were also entirely selfish ones.
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2014-06-20, 20:58 | Link #2053 | |
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Why are you so devoted to the idea that they aren't lesbians? Especially Homura, who's entire character arc revolves around how much she loves Madoka? If Homura were male (and her character type easily could be) no one would doubt that she loved Madoka. I hate having to go to that point, but it really does take that for some people to get it. As for Sakura and Kyouko, they have a love-song duet ending episode 9. Thats sorta...yeah. |
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2014-06-21, 03:14 | Link #2056 | ||
The True Culprit
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And while I won't speak for TheSix, we seem to be on the same wavelength, and I'll just say right out that while Homura is totally in rabu with Madoka (Urobuchi has answered that issue with a 'probably'), it's also pretty evident that Madoka doesn't reciprocate except maybe after becoming a goddess. But, like with Kyosaya, that's basically pandering. And as a homosexual I have to admit that I basically find this whole trend in general to be pretty goddamn disgusting. It's not new to Puella Magi or even anime or even fiction, but I find it pretty gross that everyone has to force every strong emotional dependency or connection in fiction as being completely and totally romantic. Like, not to put myself on a pedestal or anything, but I think I would do what Homura did re: time looping if the 'Madoka' in the scenario was, say, my brother, or my best friend(s), or even just someone I knew by name that I insist does not deserve to die. That people can only feel that romantic attraction can compel people to such selfless devotion to other human beings is incredibly disrespectful and disservicing to the characters and the human race in general, and ontop of that the main reason everyone clings to the lesbian interpretations is that they fetish it. Don't even deny it, either. Pretty much the vast majority of everyone who claims that HomuMado and KyoSaya is OBVIOUS claims such because they WANT it, and it appeals to them, and it's a shining spark of something sweet and good and comforting in a sea of cynical, real darkness that is the franchise. And it sells, and that's why the IP owners will create official artwork, games, merchandise, and even a sequel that will pander to this part of the fanbase, because it can be harmlessly included after the fact without contradicting anything explicitly and it satisfies romantic-fetishists. And they'd of done this regardless of the original authorial intent, because that's how intellectual properties work. The portrayal of official or canon lesbian material does not indicate that this is how the characters were WRITTEN at the time of their original publishing. Well, Homura was, but you know, whatever.
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2014-06-21, 03:37 | Link #2057 | ||
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I'm not "devoted to the idea that they aren't lesbians" (and I'd have had the same interpretation of the Madoka-Homura relationship if either one were male): I have nothing against yuri shipping, shipping in general or homosexuality, but there is no canon indication that the two are romantically interested in each other, and the insistence that to behave as they did there would have to be does in fact disservice anybody who has cared to a large extent for another human being outside of a romantic relationship, and an insistence that arguably undermines the themes of the series itself. You can interpret it as romantic if you want, but insisting it's actual fact isn't backed up by the source. Quote:
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Last edited by TheSix; 2014-06-21 at 04:14. |
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2014-06-21, 04:29 | Link #2058 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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I think it's worth noting that Urobuchi was not the only creative mind behind Madoka... Magica Quartet as a whole was.
That's Iwakami (the producer, representing Aniplex/Shaft), Shinbo (director), Urobuchi (scriptwriter), and Ume (character designer). Hell, given the impact their ideas had, especially on Rebellion, you can probably throw in Inucurry (witch animation) as well. When you talk about "authorial intent", you can't only consider what Urobuchi would have wanted (although I am, as stated, very suspicious of the idea that he was trying to "pander ironically" when he's the guy who wrote an F/SN fanfic) you also need to consider the intent of the other creatives as well. Ume made this, for what it's worth. |
2014-06-21, 04:59 | Link #2059 |
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I won't speak for Aura, but I'm not talking about authorial intent myself: I'm of the conviction that when you send art to the public, you're communicating a message, and this message can be interpreted like any other: If you're message is interpreted in ways it wasn't intended to be but is still supported by the text, then that interpretation is still valid. What I am saying, however, is that the interpretation of these character's relationships as romantic is something I /don't/ feel is supported by the text over it being non-romantic. If the portrayal was meant to be a romantic one, then that aspect of it definitely didn't appear to me, and I don't see any evidence as to how it's supported over an unromantic friendship.
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Last edited by TheSix; 2014-06-21 at 12:04. |
2014-06-21, 07:40 | Link #2060 | |
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You know, speaking as a yuri fan myself, I really wish yuri fans wouldn't sort of settle for this teasing. If an anime show and its makers wants a yuri pairing to be taken as basically official then it should give a very good in-canon/in-story reason (or reasons) for it to be taken as such. I don't have a problem with KyouSaya shippers. But I do have a problem with people arguing that it's "official", especially based on the TV series alone. An official pairing ought to be totally supportable by canon material alone (i.e. the actual story content). All this other stuff like character songs and artwork by the character designers can be a nice framing for this official pairing painting, but it shouldn't be the painting itself. And I can easily imagine Gen getting a few laughs by poking fun at fans who treat something as official when it has no real in-canon basis.
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2014-06-21 at 07:50. |
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