Ukrainian Conflict

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Jinto

I dont know about the training (cannot really compare, the only multinational excercise I was taking part in was a danish, german, polish, lithuanian multinational batallion excercise with the focus on how the brass can communicate in a meaningful way with each other )

The limiting factor is funding and equipement. We have 1000s of Leo's and 100s of APCs, armored artillery and other armored vehicles stationed in Germany, but no means to bring the equipement to where it is needed.

The Bundeswehr was created as a force to stop the Russians long enough, so that professional military can prepare and land in Germany to bring the war to Russia. So it basically was nothing but a sophisticated road block. The problem with a road block is, that its pretty useless, unless the enemy runs over it.

Same strategy. Apparently in Europe people are waiting for the Yanks to drop in the 101st/82nd and 75th. Over here we are waiting for the 7th Fleet and the USMC. The plan is to chuck every single artillery and mortar shell we have, beat down the now unbacked attacking force and pray that the Americans come here on time.

The last time I had seen an exercise with the USMC/ADF we outnumber them 3:1 in manpower......and we were wondering if they are there to clean up or to help hold the enemy off.

At least your side has the entire NATO. We only have the Eagle and the Queen.

[Grifis]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Since Putin is denying he is even attacking Ukraine at all, I fail to see how your faith in him is remotely justified. Putin can't even admit he is conquering Ukraine, what made you think he would admit he wants to go further and reclaim all other past territory?

He can't admit to that great conquest because that is your conspiracy theory. Russia is at a disadvantage right now due to their not so good reactions.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Grifis

He can't admit to that great conquest because that is your conspiracy theory. Russia is at a disadvantage right now due to their not so good reactions.

So... you still haven't told me what you actually think is happening. Call me a conspiracy theorist all you want, but what do YOU think is happening? Is American soldiers disguising themselves as Russians and killing Ukrainians to frame Putin, or what?

[panzerfan]

Originally Posted by Grifis

He can't admit to that great conquest because that is your conspiracy theory. Russia is at a disadvantage right now due to their not so good reactions.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

So... you still haven't told me what you actually think is happening. Call me a conspiracy theorist all you want, but what do YOU think is happening? Is American soldiers disguising themselves as Russians and killing Ukrainians to frame Putin, or what?

[snark] Maybe that'll explain why Putin's trying to cover up on the "Russian" fatalities in Ukraine. [/snark]

[risingstar3110]

Why do you guys have to think too much on this? That's just the way for Putin to separate the Russian role away from the conflict. I means looking at the war at Libya. Did the Western governments admitted they declared war on Libyan government, and supports the rebels to carry out the regime change in Libya? Of course not. We all knew they did it, but making it non-official can fool few guys so why not?


Same things here really. Weapon providing. Checked. Training. Checked. Intelligence support. Checked. The only difference is Russia outright shelled Ukraine position and support the separatists with men and artillery. Western government meanwhile bomb Libya key defense structure under "no-fly-zone context".

When you think about that, Putin has only been copying what the Wests has been doing. Including the Kosovo declaring dependent that was recognised by the West. Leading to Russia immediately used the same pretext for that two regions in Georgia and this time East Ukraine (or should we call West Russia by now?).


Let's just say the UN power was undermined all along, allow for bigger nations doing whatever they please. They just took turns to outcry when each other commit clear violation of sovereignty, that's all

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

When you think about that, Putin has only been copying what the Wests has been doing.l

AND? I freely insult America when they perform acts of bullshit. Why should I not do the same to Putin?

If you are going to pull the "everyone else does it" card, keep in mind that it does not EVER shift blame in any way. Putin trying to bullshit us, is still Putin trying to bullshit us. I am not going to give Russians any special treatment just because they aren't Americans.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

AND? I freely insult America when they perform acts of bullshit. Why should I not do the same to Putin?

If you are going to pull the "everyone else does it" card, keep in mind that it does not EVER shift blame in any way. Putin trying to bullshit us, is still Putin trying to bullshit us. I am not going to give Russians any special treatment just because they aren't Americans.

No you are freely to do whatever you want. Don't think anyone forbid you to throw insults at Putin or America.


Does not change the fact that it's the reality of the modern world through. Military superior nation nowadays can simply carry out invasion and regime change under their own pretext. And no one could stop them. Not the superior power. Not the UN. Not the peace-loving citizens who now care more about superstar teenager and what's not. The next time US need to invade or carry out a regime change (i call on Ecuador). It will be Russian turn to object and pretend to care, just to remind the US to shut up when it's Russian's turn to roll tank onto Georgia.


Unless they are stupid enough to up their level of bantering and doom us all with nuclear war.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

No you are freely to do whatever you want. Don't think anyone forbid you to throw insults at Putin or America.


Does not change the fact that it's the reality of the modern world through. Military superior nation nowadays can simply carry out invasion and regime change under their own pretext. And no one could stop them. Not the superior power. Not the UN. Not the peace-loving citizens who now care more about superstar teenager and what's not. The next time US need to invade or carry out a regime change (i call on Ecuador). It will be Russian turn to object and pretend to care, just to remind the US to shut up when it's Russian's turn to roll tank onto Georgia.


Unless they are stupid enough to up their level of bantering and doom us all with nuclear war.

Well I fail to see why Putin should care about not starting a nuclear war, when you are stating that you don't care about what he is doing.

Of COURSE we care about nuclear war. And that's why we are talking about it. If you don't want to care, don't be surprised when you don't get what you want.

[Hitenma]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Well I fail to see why Putin should care about not starting a nuclear war, when you are stating that you don't care about what he is doing.

Of COURSE we care about nuclear war. And that's why we are talking about it. If you don't want to care, don't be surprised when you don't get what you want.

As if some people talking in the internet can stop/start a nuclear war

[Xellos-_^]

Usually when i say, "Might Makes Right"

there is usually a few people that disagree, anyone here still doesn't believe "Might makes Right" runs the world?

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Hitenma

As if some people talking in the internet can stop/start a nuclear war

This ^

What we are doing is more or less just a thought or 'world politic' exercise. Sometime just argue or debate for the shake of it.

Please don't blame me for global total destruction

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

Usually when i say, "Might Makes Right"

there is usually a few people that disagree, anyone here still doesn't believe "Might makes Right" runs the world?

I like the line "The strong do what they want, while the weak do what they must" more.

But yeah similar sentiment. When speak about international politic, t's naive to think otherwise

(and yeah i know it's not the original quote, but it sounds better like this)

[Blaat]

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Blaat

Estonian President: One Of Our Counterintelligence Officers Was Abducted And Taken Into Russia At Gunpoint

Estonian President Toomas Hendrik Ilves tweeted this morning that an Estonian counterintelligence officer was abducted at gunpoint and taken across the border into Russia.

The officer was part of the Internal Security Service (ISS), the national agency in Estonia for counterintelligence and corruption investigations. The officer was leaving a security checkpoint after investigating an incident on the Estonian side of the Luhamaa border checkpoint with Russia when he was taken on the morning of September 5th.

According to ERR Estonian Public Broadcasting, communications on the Estonian side of the border were jammed and smoke grenades were used during the abduction.

Arnold Sinisalu, director general of the ISS, said there were signs of a violent struggle.

Estonian Foreign Minister Urmas Paet has released a statement saying that “this is a very galling incident. We expect full assistance and cooperation from Russia in resolving the incident and bringing the Estonian citizen back to Estonia.”

Estonia has summoned Russia’s ambassador to the country, Yuri Merzlyakov, to explain the incident.

The incident occurs during a time of heightened tensions between the Baltic States and Russia. President Barack Obama visited Estonia on September 2nd and pledged to protect Estonia, and the other Baltic countries, from the possibility of renewed Russian aggression.

Estonia is a member of NATO, and the other NATO states are obligated to defend it if it were ever invaded.

The country had been targeted by Russia in the past. In 2007, 10 days of cyber attacks that were thought to have originated from Russia temporarily brought down Estonia’s financial sector.

Looks like the Russians still have it. From Bazalt missiles to Vympel battalions, Mother Russia has a few tricks for Old Man Yank.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

Usually when i say, "Might Makes Right"

there is usually a few people that disagree, anyone here still doesn't believe "Might makes Right" runs the world?

Might makes right for the shortsighted. You can pick a random dictator that kills his way to the top and gets "replaced" to the next guy waiting for a coup. When Thomas Jefferson became president, it was a rarity that a leader could peacefully transition in power in a dignified manner. Both the American and French Revolution involved lots of violence, but clearly the method and results were different. Just because absolute pacifism is a delusion of the weak doesn't mean all countries have to engage in some psuedo-darwinistic zero sum game.

The US engaged in a lot of might making right lately, and we have Russia contributing to the idiocy. And then there's China in the background. Though, hey, at least the Taliban are in hiding rather than in complete control of Afghanistan. Can Russia say anything beneficial about what they're doing in Ukraine? One can disagree with the US's methods, but they were hardly an example of simple force. At least Bush didn't starve his people to make a point.

I prefer the price of freedom being eternal vigilance. Obviously that requires strength on its own, but to give it the sole credit would be disparaging those that make the world a better place without force.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Might makes right for the shortsighted. You can pick a random dictator that kills his way to the top and gets "replaced" to the next guy waiting for a coup. When Thomas Jefferson became president, it was a rarity that a leader could peacefully transition in power in a dignified manner. Both the American and French Revolution involved lots of violence, but clearly the method and results were different. Just because absolute pacifism is a delusion of the weak doesn't mean all countries have to engage in some psuedo-darwinistic zero sum game.

The US engaged in a lot of might making right lately, and we have Russia contributing to the idiocy. And then there's China in the background. Though, hey, at least the Taliban are in hiding rather than in complete control of Afghanistan. Can Russia say anything beneficial about what they're doing in Ukraine? One can disagree with the US's methods, but they were hardly an example of simple force. At least Bush didn't starve his people to make a point.

I prefer the price of freedom being eternal vigilance. Obviously that requires strength on its own, but to give it the sole credit would be disparaging those that make the world a better place without force.

He kinda does... with social welfare and government pensions being cut to reduce expenses and pay off all those debts


On the Russia beneficial. Well what they did does not benefit Ukraine of course, but it is beneficial for them. I think one of the poster did post this video before

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

He kinda does... with social welfare and government pensions being cut to reduce expenses and pay off all those debts.

That's a bit of hyperbole. Sure, you can argue that resources could have been spent on social services, but I think cutting off food imports to your own country when you aren't as able to grow your own is on a different level. Now say, if the US were to ban imports for some reason; it produces more than enough food to feed people, even if the distribution has issues. It's all situational.

On the Russia beneficial. Well what they did does not benefit Ukraine of course, but it is beneficial for them. I think one of the poster did post this video before

Hmm, not really sure what you're getting at-- my point was that invading Afghanistan had some kind of benefit to the people there even though it can be debated. Certainly Russia benefits from causing trouble in Ukraine but it's by and far at the expense of the people in Ukraine.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

That's a bit of hyperbole. Sure, you can argue that resources could have been spent on social services, but I think cutting off food imports to your own country when you aren't as able to grow your own is on a different level. Now say, if the US were to ban imports for some reason; it produces more than enough food to feed people, even if the distribution has issues. It's all situational.

Hmm, not really sure what you're getting at-- my point was that invading Afghanistan had some kind of benefit to the people there even though it can be debated. Certainly Russia benefits from causing trouble in Ukraine but it's by and far at the expense of the people in Ukraine.

That's simply a biased view point.


For example Japan. Ban and limit a lot of food imports that they can't grow their own. Leading to massive high in living cost and limit their access to foods. Calling it "starving their own citizens"? Much further from the truth.

US debt which is number one reason for that government shut down last year meanwhile...

And of course invading Afghanistan arguably benefited their citizens in some kind. But so is North Korean rule under Kim family or northern Iraq under ISIS. To elaborate, considering Afghanistan has the second lowest life expectancy (just above Angola) in the world, has a whooping 6% of population access to electricity. And up to 4-5 millions, a third of the country is still part of the war refugees.... It's possible, but very very very hard to argue that they had much benefits from US invasion

[konart]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

That's a bit of hyperbole. Sure, you can argue that resources could have been spent on social services, but I think cutting off food imports to your own country when you aren't as able to grow your own is on a different level. Now say, if the US were to ban imports for some reason; it produces more than enough food to feed people, even if the distribution has issues. It's all situational.

Hmm, not really sure what you're getting at-- my point was that invading Afghanistan had some kind of benefit to the people there even though it can be debated. Certainly Russia benefits from causing trouble in Ukraine but it's by and far at the expense of the people in Ukraine.

It's "cutting off food imports" from some countries.

No apples from Poland? Have some from China. No more Valio? Now we got Irish Kerrygold. And so on. The markets are as full as they were, I assure you.

The only problem is some products, that were imported from western Europe (France, Italy, Spain) and can't be imported from Asia or somewhere else (cheese, some types of vegetables)

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

That's simply a biased view point.

US debt which is number one reason for that government shut down last year meanwhile...

No, that was caused by opposition over the affordable health care act. It was a pathetic display no doubt, but it doesn't fit here. Not to mention it lasted all of two weeks.

As for running your comparison to Japan, they have one of the highest life expectancies in the world so I don't think there's a problem there although they also rely a lot on food imports. Oh, and hey, do you think Japan would ban all imports on US food if they wanted to punish the US? I think not, even if they can get it from elsewhere. They ban because of safety reasons.

But that's neither here nor there. If the US were to suddenly ban food imports, we'd be in far better shape relatively speaking, because we are food exporters to a lot of the world. See how the situation matters even excluding food being imported from somewhere else?

And of course invading Afghanistan arguably benefited their citizens in some kind. But so is North Korean rule under Kim family or northern Iraq under ISIS. To elaborate, considering Afghanistan has the second lowest life expectancy (just above Angola) in the world, has a whooping 6% of population access to electricity. And up to 4-5 millions, a third of the country is still part of the war refugees.... It's possible, but very very very hard to argue that they had much benefits from US invasion

So are you arguing they'd be better off under the Taliban? Is the US responsible for Afghanistan for having such low stats to begin with? And also, Afghanistan wasn't a US-only invasion. And please, ISIS? Far cry and far worse than anything either US or Russia is doing.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

So are you arguing they'd be better off under the Taliban? Is the US responsible for Afghanistan for having such low stats to begin with? And also, Afghanistan wasn't a US-only invasion. And please, ISIS? Far cry and far worse than anything either US or Russia is doing.

I don't think than anyone can say if thing are better or worse in Afghanistan. It ended up going from a shitty situation to another shitty situation. And of course the other question is how long the change will hold after after the departure of the last international troops.