Transgender Bathroom Access Rights

[Kotohono]

Important: First off this purposely is for specifically this issue for news & discussion and maybe for some people to learn something, not for transgender issues as a whole, so if you wish to discuss something else, I'll ask you take it to a different thread, or make a new one to talk about the subject.

And I'll remind everyone to remain respectful & civil even with different opinions, thank you.

If you find yourself unfamiliar with the terms, I'd suggest this link for a bit of understanding on trans & gender identity related terms.

First off the USA's Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) recently published a set of "best practices" for the matter.

OSHA Publishes Guide to Restroom Access for Transgender Workers

Washington, DC (WorkersCompensation.com) - The Occupational Safety and Health Administration today published a Guide to Restroom Access for Transgender Workers (PDF*). The publication provides guidance to employers on best practices regarding restroom access for transgender workers. The guide was developed at the request of the National Center for Transgender Equality, an OSHA Alliance partner that works collaboratively with the agency to develop products and materials to protect the safety and health of transgender workers.
OSHA's Sanitation standard requires that all employers under its jurisdiction provide employees with sanitary and available toilet facilities, so that employees will not suffer the adverse health effects that can result if toilets are not available when employees need them.
"The core principle is that all employees, including transgender employees, should have access to restrooms that correspond to their gender identity," said Assistant Secretary of Labor for Occupational Safety and Health Dr. David Michaels. "OSHA's goal is to assure that employers provide a safe and healthful working environment for all employees."

Link to the actual OSHA publications here. Which to me is a solid step in the right direction for this matter.

Even Japan recently has been making some moves on the issue:

LGBT Students In Japan: Education Ministry Asks Schools To Let Transgender Children Use Preferred Bathrooms

Japan's education ministry reportedly sent out a statement Thursday encouraging schools to increase their of support transgender students. The Japan Times reported that government officials instructed area education boards to allow children to use whichever bathrooms and locker rooms they feel most comfortable with.

"It’s a very important step," 28-year-old transgender male Mameta Endo told the Japan Times, adding that he experienced discrimination when he was in school. "I have seen many friends who were pushed into quitting school . . . hopefully, this move will help decrease the number of such students."

As of last summer, Japan's school system had more than 600 students with gender dysphoria. About two-thirds of them received "special consideration," according to a translation of a June 2014 Excite News article. These policies mostly included letting children wear whatever clothes suited them best and enabled them to use nurses' offices to change before physical education classes.

The biggest argument against are claims the myths about it somehow being a "threat" to other people using the bathroom where are completely unfounded or worse using a fake story in one case and often ignore that their crazy ideas for laws on "biological sex" would force transmen into female bathrooms because they more about transwomen who happen to be more visible and slightly more common, thus are double ignorant on what their own laws would even accomplish.

Data shows from the article below that their claims are fearmonger and trying to make people panic based off personal bias and nothing more rather than looking at the truth of the subject and failing to understanding denying people rights puts them in danger.

15 Experts Debunk Right-Wing Transgender Bathroom Myth

DC Trans Coalition: Conservatives Use "Bathroom Panic" To Defeat Transgender Non-Discrimination Laws. According to the DC Trans Coalition:

All over the world, anti-trans bigots try to convince the public that trans people are somehow a "threat" in public bathrooms. We've seen it in New Hampshire, in Gainesville, Fl and close to home in Montgomery County, Md: Our opponents stereotype trans people as sexual predators and try to use "bathroom panic" to defeat legislation that would protect our ability to gain employment and live safe lives.

Fox News Has Promoted Harassment Fears About Transgender Access To Restrooms. Fox News has repeatedly invoked fears of sexual assault and misbehavior in restrooms to attack equal access to public accommodations for transgender people, including a fake story about a transgender student harassing females in her school's restroom.

Conservative Media Outlets Have Promoted Bogus Bathroom Stories. Numerous conservative media outlets, including The Daily Caller, WND, and the Media Research Center, have similarly promoted the myth that sexual predators will exploit trans-inclusive restrooms to prey upon women.

Thankful groups aren't ignoring laws that would try deny a simple right to people with absurd over react.

LGBT Coalition Launched to Fight Anti-Trans Ballot Initiative

It’s on. The anti-trans group “Privacy for All,” founded by the anti-LGBT Capitol Resources Institute with Prop 8 mastermind Frank Schubert as its leading strategist, received a title and summary Tuesday for their latest attempt to prohibit transgender people from using government facilities that match their gender identity. California Attorney General Kamala Harris named the bathroom policing initiative “Limits on Use of Facilities in Government Buildings and Businesses.”

The initiative would mandate that the government monitor bathroom use and, if the initiative becomes law, anyone offended by the presence of a person perceived to be trans in a government restroom could sue that person for a $4,000 in damages, as well as attorney’s fees.

Equality California and other LGBT and allied organizations have been waiting for this announcement and today made one of their own. The groups have officially formed a coalition to fight the proposed initiative that includes American Civil Liberties Union of California, Equality California, the Human Rights Campaign, Los Angeles LGBT Center, the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund (MALDEF), and Transgender Law Center. The groups informally created a diverse steering committee in anticipation of the initiative.

“All Californians should have the same freedom to go about their lives and access government buildings without having their privacy invaded or being forced to undergo invasive examination simply to use a public restroom,” Kris Hayashi, Executive Director of Transgender Law Center, said in a press release. “The bathroom policing initiative would unfairly single out transgender people and people who don’t meet stereotypes of what it looks like to be male or female for interrogation and exclusion.”

“Our opponents clearly have a taste for irony,” said Rick Zbur, Executive Director of Equality California. “Why else would they include ‘privacy’ in the name of their organization that seeks to invade the most basic dignity of the transgender community – or really, of anyone who doesn’t match subjective standards of masculinity or femininity? This initiative has no safeguards about who does the interrogating or how an individual would prove their identity. It’s a recipe for harassment.”

Again though please be respectful & civil in discussion .

[Triple_R]

Two bathrooms. One "male", one "female". Have a private stall (or multiple private stalls) within each bathroom, if at all possible. These stalls are for toilet use or shower use (where applicable). These stalls can be locked from the inside, and are separate from the sink/hand-wash section.

Everybody is free to use whichever bathroom is in accordance with her or his gender identity. This freedom is to be respected by all bathroom users.


This is probably the best overall approach here, I think.

[Kotohono]

In case anyone missed, John Oliver on Last Week Tonight did great piece on transgender issues last week, and addressed point of this thread heavily from 9:20 onwards, but if you're generally unfamiliar with transgender or the issues around or interested to learn, then rest is plenty worth watching.

YouTube

https://youtu.be/hmoAX9f6MOc

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After watching that you might be thinking "Well I still don't know anyone who's transgender, so I am not sure I really care" like many people whom haven't know well...

Spoilers

Spoiler for Spoiler Alert, Think Again

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[FlavoryFantasy]

You know, even after having seen John's piece for this when it came out... I am still shocked by that one law in Arizona that was fining people all that money + jail time for the wrong bathroom. Absolutely ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Konakaga

Spoilers

Spoiler for Spoiler Alert, Think Again

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Spoilers

Spoiler for is this response even needed in spoilers? w/e

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[Xellos-_^]

there is always the Unisex restroom form Ally Macbeal.

[Kotohono]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

there is always the Unisex restroom form Ally Macbeal.

They're a great solution as long as they aren't too isolated (ie cases where school forces the child to go to nurse's office bathroom) or if they exist at all, since it's at least in my experience they tend to be a bit uncommon right now.

And when LGBT group I was a part of at Uni tried to get more added to the campus it was a frustrating struggle to get the administrators to even consider it, and even after numerous talks with us it only resulted in a few more for the most major of buildings on the campus, and generally ignored anything minor.

Otherwise I have no complaints about them more of them would certainly make it easier from transgender person(s).

[SeijiSensei]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/27/op...restrooms.html

[Mr Hat and Clogs]

I don't see how its a problem. It's not like anyone goes to bathrooms to 'perve' or whatever. There are stalls in male and female bathrooms. Hell I've used female bathrooms in a pinch if I couldn't find a male one (or just misread the sign completely >.>). Even in male bathrooms that use those wall.. things.. you can't see anything unless you stand right next to someone and lean over for a look (of course Man Code Bathroom Regulations 10-2-E, denotes one empty space between each user). All stall bathrooms shouldn't even be an issue imo. It seems like its insecure people just being insecure. Well here is something that might break their little minds, gay people using the same bathrooms - the horror.

[Double_Edge]

I think if you have a y chromosome you should just go to the men's restroom. If you don't then go to the woman's. Only exception should be if you do the whole bruce jenner shebang and you can visually pass as the opposite gender. I doubt anyone would go through crazy lengths like that to creep.

[Kotohono]

Originally Posted by Mr Hat and Clogs

I don't see how its a problem. It's not like anyone goes to bathrooms to 'perve' or whatever. There are stalls in male and female bathrooms. Hell I've used female bathrooms in a pinch if I couldn't find a male one (or just misread the sign completely >.>). Even in male bathrooms that use those wall.. things.. you can't see anything unless you stand right next to someone and lean over for a look (of course Man Code Bathroom Regulations 10-2-E, denotes one empty space between each user). All stall bathrooms shouldn't even be an issue imo. It seems like its insecure people just being insecure. Well here is something that might break their little minds, gay people using the same bathrooms - the horror.

Pretty much it really shouldn't be an issue, but it is due to people's insecurities because the articles I linked before showed there isn't really danger from allowing it according the data & records we have.

Originally Posted by Double_Edge

I think if you have a y chromosome you should just go to the men's restroom. If you don't then go to the woman's.

Ah the good olde super flawed "chromosomes" argument... let me explain why that's a terrible rule to use...

1. Why in the world would chromosomes matter more than what the law says someones' gender is? The law generally allows someone's gender markers to be changed legally with approval from a medical professional as proof they've taken steps to change their gender medically.

2. Frankly chromosomes are only relevant if you're in an intimate relationship with the other person, or you're a medical professional and thus need to know for health reasons, and to anyone else chromosomes are irrelevant and personal information that you have no right to, so demanding it is a bit absurd.

3. Chromosomes aren't as black & white as people commonly think there are a lot of people born as Intersex & with Chromosomes disorders that cause this rule to bend & break because there are hundreds of exceptions that would need to be made for such as XY gonadal Females for example.

4. Chromosomes testing isn't exactly done commonly on most people because it tends to be expensive & time consuming and generally waste of both resources for something as trivia as judging if someone is using the "right" the bathroom; who would you make pay for it for "proof", the tax payers?

Originally Posted by Double_Edge

Only exception should be if you do the whole bruce jenner shebang and you can visually pass as the opposite gender. I doubt anyone would go through crazy lengths like that to creep.

I think judging it off a persons' appearance is terribly shallow and highly problematic especially since that tends to partially depends on a persons' income and thus discriminates against lower class people since they can't afford surgeries & other costs as easily and putting them in the opposite of where they should legally be is an issue and commonly cause them to face undue discrimination.

And I mean should we start kicking out masculine women like butch lesbians from the women's bathroom and overly feminine males from the men's bathroom then since they don't fit the "norms" to you?

[Jagger]

I don't care which bathrooms people use as long as they don't try to grope me or something.

Gym changing rooms on that other hand, far more interesting debate. I would imagine the ladies would be pretty weirded out by someone with a dick changing in there. That would be pretty entertaining in my opinion, most people don't share that enthusiasm though.

[GDB]

1) Don't stare at other people's junk in the locker room

2) Anything "different" would weird people out. Got a unique tattoo? Skin blemish? Scar? You're going to weird people out that are looking (see statement #1 for how to fix this).

[SeijiSensei]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/02/us...-bathroom.html

I suspect this wasn't entirely spontaneous but organized by religious conservatives.

“My goal is for the district and parents to have a policy discussion,” said Derrick Good, an attorney who has two daughters in the district and wants students to use either facilities based on their biological sex or other gender-neutral facilities.

He worked with the Alliance Defending Freedom, a Christian advocacy group, to draft a “student physical privacy policy” and submit it to the district, which has about 3,500 students.

Would "gender-neutral" include eliminating the distinction between boys' and girls' bathrooms entirely? Somehow I don't think that's what Mr. Good had in mind, nor the "Alliance Defending Freedom."

[Kafriel]

It's not even funny how nobody seems to care about the feelings of transgender people...what are they supposed to do when they're not okay with using the other bathroom? Are they not children too, isn't it stressful for them? Apparently, people don't seem to care that much :S

[Kotohono]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/02/us...-bathroom.html

I suspect this wasn't entirely spontaneous but organized by religious conservatives.

Would "gender-neutral" include eliminating the distinction between boys' and girls' bathrooms entirely? Somehow I don't think that's what Mr. Good had in mind, nor the "Alliance Defending Freedom."

Mostly likely parents pressed their children into it since parents are generally far more concerned because of the conservative media using it as boogieman with nothing to back it up besides fear.

And "gender-neutral" tends to be single use bathrooms for anyone generally speaking.

Originally Posted by Kafriel

It's not even funny how nobody seems to care about the feelings of transgender people...what are they supposed to do when they're not okay with using the other bathroom? Are they not children too, isn't it stressful for them? Apparently, people don't seem to care that much :S

Yup forcing them into a bathroom their uncomfortable with is a clearly a bad idea and great way to cause them to be bullied and possible and single use causes them to be a target and ostracized, but to them one "normal" student's paranoia is more important to them than minority students ability to feel safe and not stressed as school that's already generally doesn't feel safe at school.

[Urzu 7]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

It's not even funny how nobody seems to care about the feelings of transgender people...what are they supposed to do when they're not okay with using the other bathroom? Are they not children too, isn't it stressful for them? Apparently, people don't seem to care that much :S

In these modern times, in these recent years, it has taken some time but finally people are becoming more accepting and tolerant of gay and bi people. Now there is lots of ground to cover; more progress to be made for trans individuals, but at least people are starting the path towards progress for trans individuals in these recent years, as well.

[Kafriel]

It's still going to get a lot of time and there will always be people too narrow-minded to accept them (as is the case with race, religion and sex), but I have faith that, in the years to follow, the transgender community will at least reclaim their human rights in our society. In case you haven't watched kids react to Caitlyn Jenner, notice how the teens themselves may be confused about the issue, but not actually offended, so you can be certain that whatever discrimination transgender people have to face in school stems from the students' parents.

[AdrianWernerGOL]

It's a hard issue. Because the gender based bathrooms weren't set up based on what gender somebody is inside, but solely based on physical reality. Even their design is based around if people using them can piss while standing. If we stop considering that then there's no reason for any gender-segregated bathrooms, which would probably be for the best. Altough americans sadly seem to react with pure terror to any nudity, which likely escalates the problem way beyond what it's should be.

I wonder...does the pre-op trans people have problem with actually using the bathroom designated for gender they don't feel being a part off...or is the issue centered around the fact that it's a sign of how some parts of society view and discriminate them? Because if it's the later then unisex bathrooms would fix it. If the former then it won't be fixed.

[Jaden]

I think it'd be okay to cater to trans people a bit on this issue. Recognition by authorities would at least somewhat increase recognition by their peers, which is their main issue. And this is a class of people who can still have a lot of bones thrown to them before being privileged.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by AdrianWernerGOL

It's a hard issue. Because the gender based bathrooms weren't set up based on what gender somebody is inside, but solely based on physical reality. Even their design is based around if people using them can piss while standing. If we stop considering that then there's no reason for any gender-segregated bathrooms, which would probably be for the best. Altough americans sadly seem to react with pure terror to any nudity, which likely escalates the problem way beyond what it's should be.

Other than urinals existing, there's absolutely no difference between a men's bathroom and women's bathroom. So either women's rooms have more stalls, or they're literally the same but without ceramic bowls on the wall, depending on how the room is set up (everything in a straight line with sinks on the opposite wall vs urinals on wall opposite the stalls).

Also, while not easy, women CAN use urinals.