Batman vs. Superman: Dawn of Justice

[Seafoam]

A-At least the films won't be so fast paced now, right?

Right? ;_;

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Kyero Fox

To be fair....that's not far off .

Marvel has had some ok to below average films in the MCU, but they have tended to take a slow approach. BvS...is kind of the blender approach. Get everything in there and boom now go straight to Justice league. After that then you can go ahead and do the solo films to flesh them out.

Hopefully those efforts work out a bit better than this did. (Ok movie, but could have been better).

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by Kyero Fox

If Suicide Squad's characters stand out, building the DCU the way they have becomes redundant

[Kyero Fox]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kousaka

If Suicide Squad's characters stand out, building the DCU the way they have becomes redundant

I can Guarantee you that it will be criticized as "DC's Rip off of Guardians of the Galaxie"

[sunset]

FINALLY saw the movie today.

To be honest, I liked it quite a bit.
I didn't mind the "grim and dark" overtones, it seemed like a fine, sober little movie (IMHO) that could have used a bit more WW, Aquaman and the rest.

My impressions:

Spoiler:

- Fight was over too quick
- Lex is one scheming, devious, evil little *****
- DCU people should really-REALLY get off Supes' back
- I can't believe WW retired during WWII
- LOVED Flash's "I arrived too soon" time travelling shenanigans
- Aquaman!
- Bruce needs to up his ninja infiltrating skills, everybody tags him. Marcy, WW, Clark...
- Bats is a softie deep down, one momma's name and his tough boy facade crumbles

And, because it bears repeating...
- Lex is one scheming, devious, evil little *****
B-

[aohige]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

To be fair....that's not far off .

Marvel has had some ok to below average films in the MCU, but they have tended to take a slow approach. BvS...is kind of the blender approach. Get everything in there and boom now go straight to Justice league. After that then you can go ahead and do the solo films to flesh them out.

Hopefully those efforts work out a bit better than this did. (Ok movie, but could have been better).

See, that's the thing.
MCU's bar is set so high, their "worst" films are actually just "average" films.
Some are a little below average, but nothing in the complete shitter.
And their best films are some of the best action movies PERIOD to date.

DCU so far has had nothing but "meh" with no exceptional films.
And I seriously doubt Suicide Squad will be amazing. At best "ok".
It's off to a very non-ideal start, for sure.

[Mr. DJ]

Conversation I was reading that offered a bit to chew on in regards to the movie...

No fan's take on the characters is "pure". Snyder IS making DC heroes come to life, the way he sees them. This is not a guy who doesn't care about the source material. If anything, his problem is too much devotion to certain source material. He's dedicated to making comic panels and lines happen on screen, and often doesn't care how he gets from one to the next. Look back at his Watchmen. Huge, slow, but aside from one change to cut it down and make it more coherent (plenty of people lauded the Manhattan change and getting rid of the "aliens" as making the story tighter and better) it absolutely was the comic, on screen, with almost-to-no lines written by the screenwriters.

The problem here isn't a non-fan making the movies. It's a fan making mediocre movies. Even Snyder's kind of joyless take on the characters could work in good movies (The Dark Knight, for instance) if he was making good movies. He's just not.

Watchmen was awesome. And all the reasons why Watchmen was awesome, are also the reasons why BvS:DoJ was bad... You don't take a director who made a fantastically cynical film about the deconstruction of a pessimistic superhero group... And put him in charge of an idealistic film about the construction of an optimistic superhero group.

It's just... Wrong. Like putting the greatest candy maker in the world in charge of your new steakhouse. Yes, they are both foods, but they are so far apart on the spectrum that an expert in one would have no clue about the other...

[HasuMasu]

Originally Posted by aohige

See, that's the thing.
MCU's bar is set so high, their "worst" films are actually just "average" films.
Some are a little below average, but nothing in the complete shitter.
And their best films are some of the best action movies PERIOD to date.

DCU so far has had nothing but "meh" with no exceptional films.
And I seriously doubt Suicide Squad will be amazing. At best "ok".
It's off to a very non-ideal start, for sure.

Have we been watching the same movies?

Iron Man 2, Iron Man 3, Avengers, Avengers Age of Ultron, and Thor the Dark World are all shit. Thor and Captain America the First Avenger were okay. Guardians of the Galaxy, Captain America Winter Soldier, and Ant Man are their only good movies.

The DCEU has Man of Steel which is better than anything Disney's Marvel has put out (Iron Man and Incredible Hulk were both before Disney took over), and Batman v Superman Dawn of Justice is better than more than half of Disney's Marvel's shit.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by HasuMasu

and Batman v Superman Dawn of Justice is better than more than half of Disney's Marvel's shit.

And that is where I have to express my disagreement. None of the Marvel films, even Iron Man 3, have given me the kind of distaste for its very concept that Batman vs Superman left me. At worst, Marvel films have given me a "that was nice, could be better" feeling, whereas I wish I could have the money I spent on Batman vs Superman refunded.

Actually a shame too, because the scene with Bruce Wayne in Metropolis during the early part of the movie had so much potential and was my favorite part of the film, and yet the film's ultimately disjointed nature put me off it, and not helped by their continuing treatment of Superman as being less than the Paragon of good that he is supposed to represent. It also doesn't help that the way they handled their planned crossovers is sloppy compared to how the MCU did it, and it shows.

[HasuMasu]

Okay are you actually a fan of Superman or not? Where was he not being a good guy?

Maybe it was that time in the desert where Lois was held hostage. Yeah, he killed all those people oh wait he didn't.

What about that montage of him saving people in various situations while people were shit talking him? I wonder how that reflects on his character.

I remember he was pretty pissed at Batman's cruelty to criminals. What did he do? Oh he just gave him a stern warning? Not even a punch? Wow...

How about the time his mom was held hostage, and Lex told him to kill the Batman? Yeah, he straight up murdered the Bat oh wait he didn't. Did he at least break him? No? Okay...

How about the time he sacrificed himself to kill Doomsday? Nothing heroic about that, I'm sure.

I'm tired of all you so-called Superman fans hating on a very humanising and socially relevant interpretation. This is the Superman we need but not the one we deserve right now.

So many don't get that the darker the world the more Superman's goodness shines. That's definitely the case in Batman v Superman Dawn of Justice.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by HasuMasu

So many don't get that the darker the world the more Superman's goodness shines. That's definitely the case in Batman v Superman Dawn of Justice.

The problem isn't that the world is dark, but rather that said darkness seems to be getting to Superman himself, and so rather than a bright beacon of light he seems more like a dim glow lamp. Never in the film did any of Superman's actions inspire me to think of him as "heroic" in any fashion.

All of the saving he does is shown, but while actions speak more than words how said actions are shown is also important, and the way it's portrayed is that he seems to treat it as a chore, rather than because he truly believes in it, and it doesn't help that the film constantly has the need to harp doubt about whether Superman is good in those scenes, which really tones down on the impact that they might have as far as watching superheroics goes.

It's also the fact that Superman's conflict about whether he is a force of good or not was already something covered (quite badly imho) in Man of Steel, and so Superman losing his affirmation of why he does what he does feels more like world putting down Superman.

The most superheroic part of the entire movie for me was my favorite part that I've already provided: the Metropolis scene with Bruce Wayne. Despite at that moment being a man without any super powers or super gadgets and without brand recognition, Bruce Wayne goes into a place where a battle between two superhumans could threaten to crush him under a pile of rubble, and he straight up rescues people in any way he can. THAT was the most inspiring scene of heroics I've seen in the movie, and that was the Bruce Wayne, aka the Batman, who's supposed to be the dark side of this equation. Hell, the movie even does it so that it's Batman who saves Martha Kent.

The problem for me regarding Batman vs Superman is that it seems to constantly put down Superman until he's basically just a mockery of his supposed ideal only good for of his superpowers and nothing else. They do a great job in showing us a SUPERman, and they do try to emphasize that he is also a superMAN through his vulnerabilities...

But if I want to watch angsty heroes struggling with their humanity in a brooding manner, I'll watch Batman, or some of the Marvel movies. What I wanted here is not SUPERman, aka the man with superpowers, or superMAN wrapped up in his doubts and fears.

What I wanted was to see SUPERMAN, the Man of Steel, the embodiment of truth, justice, and the American way (maybe not much of the latter, but still), the hero who shines bright, not this angsty, broody superhero wearing the red cape. When BATMAN in my eyes comes across as a more inspiring hero than Superman in the same movie, that's when something's gone wrong.

I didn't enjoy Man of Steel for the same reason I didn't quite enjoy this film, and unfortunately it did it worse.

Like I've said in posts before way back into Man of Steel, if I wanted SUPERMAN I'd rather watch Christoper Reeve's original movies or even Superman Returns, which I did enjoy immensely the first time I saw it.

[HasuMasu]

It seems we're looking at the same thing and seeing two different things. I saw a world trying its hardest to put Superman down and Superman rising up to the challenge and proving his heroism.

I don't know how you can look at his feats in this movie and not see how hopeful his message is. I've already listed his heroics, but your only answer is that the presentation vaguely somehow makes it not seem heroic. I definitely felt that he was shining though.

In this movie, I saw Superman's vulnerabilities. A common criticism of his character is that he's unrelateable due to how Super he is. I feel that was taken care of well enough here.

There's a story in the comics called What's so Funny about Truth Justice and the American Way adapted into an animated movie Superman vs the Elite. Majority of that story was criticism after criticism of Superman's character questioning his relevance in the modern day, yet it's this story that really lifts up his character because he answers those criticisms in the end by showing how much of a hero he is. It's the same thing with Batman v Superman Dawn of Justice.

I don't know what more needs to be presented in favour of this great film. My posts speak for themselves.

I don't know what kind of Superman you want, but it's definitely not my Superman.

Christopher Reeve's Superman is too goofy to be taken seriously, and Superman Returns is to underwhelming to inspire any emotions. Zack Snyder has created a Superman that has taken every criticism of the character and answered with a message of hope and heroism.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by HasuMasu

It seems we're looking at the same thing and seeing two different things. I saw a world trying its hardest to put Superman down and Superman rising up to the challenge and proving his heroism.

It's more to do with how his actions are portrayed, rather than the actions themselves.

I mean, Superman in this film, when he made a grave mistake brought on by a most incredible idiot ball - him being unable to spot there being a bomb in the room - he once again goes soul-searching, and only really goes back when he needed to save Lois. That hardly inspiring at all in my view - he doesn't try and prove people wrong about him by continuing to rise above their petty views and continuing on being a hero, he succumbed to their pessimism and lost all his drive to be a superhero. The fact that the film explicitly goes into the "Where is Superman" questions after that hardly helped in my view.

This wouldn't be something I'd rag on for someone like say, Tony Stark due to their character, but for someone like Superman it seems very much at odds with what his character is supposed to represent, being a bastion of good and light.

Superman can have his weak moments, but as you said he's supposed to rise up to the challenge and prove his heroism... and that's not something I saw here, or rather, it's not something I felt here. Oh I see a Superman doing super stuff with his super powers after that particular event, but it never struck or inspired me as "heroic". Him going after Doomsday felt more like him having been dragged to do that after his battle with Batman, and he was only drawn out to that point because he had to try and save Lois Lane. And are they trying to tell us that Superman is incapable of finding out where his own mother is hidden, and that he is too slow to be able to upset Lex Luthor's hostage plan, not when he has been shown capable of going from America to another continent to save a child on TV incredibly fast?

The film just feels like it contrives to make Superman more stupid and less capable than he's already established to be, which combined with the messages the film puts out about Superman's "right" to what he's doing and his own constant self-doubt means that Superman's acts of heroism don't have the inspiring impact that you would expect from the Man of Steel. And that is what I mean by Superman succumbing into the darkness of the film: he doesn't shine, he flickers.

The tone of the film fits Batman more, and in fact I feel this film is as far as a Batman film goes, acceptable if not quite in the same league as the Dark Knight Trilogy. But as a Superman film? I can't accept it.

This, combined with the rather shoddy editing and transition of scenes and script, the various idiot balls and plot holes (why would they even accuse Superman of killing those people in the first place when it's clear that they've been shot?), the Lex Luthor trying to be Joker-type mad and utterly failing at it, and there's so much wrong with the film that I can't stomach, and hence that's why I rate it lower than most of Marvel's fare.

[HasuMasu]

Here's another thing we can't agree on. I don't think anyone deserves to be called truly good without being tested. Superman doubts himself and his place in the world because he's HUMAN. That's why Batman didn't kill him because staring down the kryptonite, Superman was thinking of saving someone other than himself. This humanises him in Batman's eyes.

I think the whole point this movie is trying to make about his character is that Superman is a human with doubts and vulnerabilities but chooses to be good despite all that.

I don't know what made you feel like his actions weren't heroic. Maybe because he was doubted? I think that makes him more heroic.

You didn't like Lex's performance? I loved it.

You think Superman could've saved his Mom by himself? I think Lex could've given the order to kill her before he could even find her. It's not a chance I'd be willing to take in Superman's shoes.

I think the point of the people doubting him because of the incident in the desert was because he wasn't able to save everyone not necessarily because they think he killed them all.

He didn't come back just to save Lois. He came back because of the scene with his father, a beautiful and touching scene I would say.

Let's lay down the problems I do have with this movie. I think they should've focused on the Batman vs Superman (vs Lex Luthor) completely and give up the part about Doomsday because it makes the film bloated and doesn't give enough time for the death of Superman to have enough impact despite the funeral scene being very well done. If Doomsday had to be in it, I'd rather he have more bone spikes to look more like...well, Doomsday. A minor complaint is I think the Justice League cameos and tie-ins should've been after credits scenes or something to that effect.

Other than that, I don't see anything wrong with the movie's script or editing or whatever.

It's a fundamental difference in interpretation of Superman's character that leads to this argument. I want Superman to be relateable. I want him to earn his respect for life. I want him to have doubts and vulnerabilities and rise above those to prove he's a hero. What you want is hardly a character at all but a caricature of Superman's 75 years of media history. What you want is a static shadow that isn't super or hero or man or anything meaningful or relevant.

I'm not an outspoken or opinionated person, and I feel like I've said enough, so I'll leave this at that. Obviously, we're too different as people to come to an understanding.

EDIT: I just realised all you so-called Superman fans are the same as the people in this movie who critisise Superman (including Bruce) because you all see him as an inhuman God rather than just a person trying to do the right thing.

EDIT 2:

YouTube

https://youtu.be/rKRmMQaLZz8

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by HasuMasu

It's a fundamental difference in interpretation of Superman's character that leads to this argument. I want Superman to be relateable. I want him to earn his respect for life. I want him to have doubts and vulnerabilities and rise above those to prove he's a hero.

If I wanted to see all that, I'd watch a Marvel movie with characters like Spiderman, or Iron Man, Captain America, or even Ant Man. Not to say that Superman can't have the failings that you say, but for the most part he's supposed to have risen above all that - there's a reason that he's sometimes derisively called as the "Boy Scout", and he should be: for him to be the embodiment of all that is good is supposed to be his entire point. He should be the counterpart to Batman's pragmatism and realism.... and instead in this movie we get a Superman trying to be as dark and broody as Batman.

And yes, I'm gonna have to agree to disagree on this one, as it's only going to be a circular argument here.

[sunset]

I'm gonna have to say I share many of Hasumasu's views on this movie, this is a Superman for the XXI century, a more realistic (if that's even possible when talking about flying aliens) depiction of Kal than the happy-go-lucky starry eyed Reeves version.

In the real world, people wouldn't instantly fall in love with Superman, he'd be met on one side with envy, cynicism and suspicion, on the other with religious adoration.
Superman's in that lovely position where he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't and the film shows that quite well.

It was maybe a bit more brooding than what i'd like it to be but yeah, carrying the weight of 6 billion people's hopes and judgement on your back can be quite overwhelming.

[Akito Kinomoto]

I don't have a problem with the DCU's deconstruction on Superman himself, but they've screwed themselves if every character is like this for the Justice League. Marvel's characters have distinct personalities that always hold no matter what happens, and the sad part is DC characters have done the same; it's called Injustice. But if everyone is dark and brooding, the only difference becomes the power set. And the really weird thing is BvS really did translate Wonder Woman to the darker 21st Century mindset while still making her feel distinct. She's sensual, sharp, and strong, whereas Superman looks lost most of the time while Batman is pissed and angry

Meanwhile...
Iron Man--sarcastic, witty, bit of a rockstar
Captain America--...let me back to you on this one
Thor--something of a hothead
Hulk--socially awkward, a little introverted
Spiderman--mild mannered (duh!)
Captain America--...let me back to you on this one
Vision--...wait, is it bad I'm thinking of classic Superman?

[aohige]

Originally Posted by HasuMasu

Have we been watching the same movies?

Iron Man 2, Iron Man 3, Avengers, Avengers Age of Ultron, and Thor the Dark World are all shit. Thor and Captain America the First Avenger were okay. Guardians of the Galaxy, Captain America Winter Soldier, and Ant Man are their only good movies.

The DCEU has Man of Steel which is better than anything Disney's Marvel has put out (Iron Man and Incredible Hulk were both before Disney took over), and Batman v Superman Dawn of Justice is better than more than half of Disney's Marvel's shit.

Hahahaha.

No. It was pretty awful.
If you had said "Dark Knight" then there's sliver of chance I may have taken you seriously. Too bad that's not a DCEU title.

[HasuMasu]

Man of Steel was an amazing and touching film. What was wrong with it? I would nitpick like two or three shots I didn't like, but those are small problems.

Don't tell me you're another one of those who think Superman had any choice but to kill Zod. What was he going to do? Put him in a prison for humans? Break his arms and legs as if that's more humane? (I doubt they'd stay broken anyway since he's Kyrptonian.)

If your problem is just the darker tone, then there's nothing to be had with an argument. You simply like it or you don't, and I loved it.

[aohige]

Nah, I don't give a rats ass about the Superman fanboy arguments raging in the above posts, that's not my beef at all.
The narrative of the movie was terrible. The only reason why I don't say it's complete shit (like you oh-so-fairly said about Avengers /sarcasm) is due to the fact the terrible storyboard and narration didn't make the movie incoherent.

Unfortunately BvS was even bigger shamble, and while Snyder has made excuses already that he didn't have enough airing time to fit everything (which to his credit was likely true), it doesn't change the fact that the end result was absolute abomination of film narrative. It wasn't a movie, it was a franchise endorsement.
BvS showcased none of the eloquence Snyder showed with Watchmen, which to be fair, he DID have the original books as a guideline for the script. AoU had signs of similar problems, but not to this disastrous extent.

Man of Steel was a below average film, and BvS is below B-rated.
Perhaps not Green Lantern level of shit, but that's getting into comparing which shit stinks worse.

The DCEU direction could learn many lessons from their animation department, which handles it with far more grace.