(L) Kotetsujo no Kabaneri (Knocking on the Walls of the Armored Fortress)

[moncikoma]

MIINAA....THIS IS THE TRUE ENDING...
https://youtu.be/JpRCOsvwcdQ
Ikoma : Maybe it was just an assumption that dead people soul is dwell in a thing, but i believe on that.. i believe my sister hatsune and takumi soul is right here inside the stone, that they will protect us from inside the stone, so mumei have this stone I do not want to lose anyone anymore.

Mumei : You too,

ikoma : me too?

Mumei : Don`t just die without permission. you promised right?

ikoma: you`re right.... mumei... i promise that i will turn you back to human

Mumei: Un! (imagine she is nodding while smiling)

[Blonto]

Originally Posted by Kusaja

Not to mention that I don't believe Kabaneri ever stopped being a zombie apocalypse show.

You can believe whatever you want, the fact is that most people were disappointed in this show precisely because it stopped being about a zombie apocalypse. If you can remove the zombies completely out of a story and barely lose anything, it's not a zombie story anymore. You could easily replace Biba's zombies with his minions and the result would be exactly the same, in fact his band of minions was the thing that took over the city, really they could've done it without the zombies. You can tell me that a story where zombies have nothing to do is a zombie apocalypse story, but with that logic you can also put Twilight into the same basket as Nosferatu. This is a Biba apocalypse story more than anything.

Originally Posted by Kusaja

Which is a rather preposterous idea when fully considered, because several of the cliches that people have complained about are also present in zombie media, including the "humanity is the real monster, not the zombies!" angle as well as having the hero rescue the girl/other survivors, etc. and all the stupidity from guards or other authority figures. Kabaneri has gotten a lot of heat for that sort of mix, and yet that's clearly part of the zombie genre too, in practice, and not an exclusively shonen trait.

I'm having trouble believing that someone who isn't a troll is telling me that an overdone cliche is a good thing because it's overdone. This entire time you're defending this show by repeating how how unimaginative and by-the-books it is. "Yes, it's a shounen cliche, shounen cliches are overdone so that's fine" How is this making sense to you? How can you be using the main flaw of the show as its defense without doing a thing to justify it? It's like if I was telling you that out-of-place fanservice and annoying kid characters were ok because people use them to death. That's precisely the reason they suck. It's not a freakin' virtue to throw up the same boring formula just because you can't think of anything else. And even if you're too unimaginative to not use cliches, you can at least use your brain to incorporate them in a way that doesn't fill your entire story with inconsistencies and plot holes and boy, did Kabaneri fail at this miserably. People still don't get the motivations behind this whole revenge story or what the hell Biba was trying to do, everyone got pissed at Mumei and Ikoma for being useless and the whole "no-one asking questions" thing is the worst way of avoiding explaining your plot-holes and keeping things forcibly hidden from the audience.
Kabaneri never had much brain, but it did have creativity. The premise of a steampunk Japan with a bunch of people going through a zombie apocalypse on a train is certainly unique as far as zombie shows go and the series tried from the start to focus on a group of characters, rather than only one protagonist. There was absolutely no reason to make it go full shounen. Attack on Titan had shounen elements (Eren, turning into titans) but it remained primarily an action show doing its own thing. Kabaneri could have gone a similar route with only 12 episodes, they were already ripping it off anyway but I guess they thought putting AoT's flaws on steroids was a better idea.

Originally Posted by Kusaja

"Pure action shows" are no less cliched or stereotypical by nature. In fact, quite a few action show cliches are also present in this final arc. It's also not true that this series never had stuff like the old shonen idealism at the very start or was "promising" to have action scenes with nothing in between.

Idealism is one thing, when MC started setting impossible goals like getting rid of all the zombies and curing Mumei that's when the series strayed into straight-up shounen mentality. I mean, there was always a threat of it turning into one, but I was hoping the people behind it weren't such uncreative idiots that they'd waste such an awesome premise and production values like that, because there was nothing in the show forcing them to. It's not like High school of the dead which has to be stupid and generic from its very premise. The only downfall of Kabaneri was strictly its creators' incompetence. That's why it's a disappointment and garbage.

[frodonk]

I liked the art, it's unique and despite lumping almost all the popular tropes nowadays into the series, it did work.

I mean, it's a zombie apocalypse set in steampunk, railroad crossed feudal japan, with steam guns, swords and gunswords, with a vampiric zombie/human hybrid as the main protagonist, together with a muscly train driver who always removes her jacket when pulling an important lever.

Almost everyone is bound to be a fan of one of those things

[Kusaja]

Originally Posted by Blonto

You can believe whatever you want, the fact is that most people were disappointed in this show precisely because it stopped being about a zombie apocalypse. If you can remove the zombies completely out of a story and barely lose anything, it's not a zombie story anymore. You could easily replace Biba's zombies with his minions and the result would be exactly the same, in fact his band of minions was the thing that took over the city, really they could've done it without the zombies. You can tell me that a story where zombies have nothing to do is a zombie apocalypse story, but with that logic you can also put Twilight into the same basket as Nosferatu. This is a Biba apocalypse story more than anything.

No, it merely stopped focusing on exclusively fighting zombies within said zombie apocalypse. But what happened later was still connected to the same apocalyptic setting. More importantly, the show didn't only introduce zombies and nothing else.

The Kabaneri are also part of the same equation and arguably just as if not more significant. It's even in the damn title and OP sequence of this thing. The Biba arc, for better or for worse, relied upon the existence of both Kabane and Kabaneri. Both, not only one of them. It wouldn't make any sense to remove either element from the story.

And, for the sake of the record, there have been other examples of zombie stories where the zombies are not the final threat. That doesn't mean they have nothing to do, just because such stories do not always end with a human killing a zombie (or vice versa).

I'm having trouble believing that someone who isn't a troll is telling me that an overdone cliche is a good thing because it's overdone.

I am having trouble believing that someone who isn't a troll is telling me that accepting the existence of a cliche in a story (or a stereotypical story) as not being the worst thing known to modern media automatically means it's a good thing. I think it's something that can be normalized and internalized, or rejected and disliked, not good or bad as a concept. Storytelling patterns, including tropes and cliches, are almost unavoidable.

What I was addressing was the false dilemma between zombie and shonen. These are not opposite genres, nor does one lack cliches or stereotypes of its own.

I have both explicitly and implicitly criticized the show more than enough on my own terms before, which mostly contradicts your simplistic accusation of my "defending" it. I am not saying this show's use of cliches is automatically a virtue. It's such a blatant lie that such claims can only make me laugh at this point.

But let's talk about specifics. Depending on the situation and its execution, a stereotype can work. Evidently, not all of them did. Making Mumei into a damsel in distress sure didn't. Biba was also not a good villain. But there's less of a consensus about other aspects. Does everyone or even the majority of the audience hate Ikoma? No, you would be objectively wrong by stating that. Some felt tired by his going from temporarily useless to useful and back again, before finally making a breakthrough at the end. Others dealt with it and even liked the outcome even if they found the previous steps to be boring. So you'll have people who name Ikoma as either their biggest problem with the series, a purely minor issue or, as a matter of fact, one of the few positives. Almost nobody is going to say that about Biba, so there is a difference and more room for a variety of reactions when faced with different cliches, patterns or conventions.

Idealism is one thing, when MC started setting impossible goals like getting rid of all the zombies and curing Mumei that's when the series strayed into straight-up shounen mentality.

Idealism often includes aspiring to accomplish either impossible or very hard things.

[darkchibi07]

Originally Posted by orion

Well if you're appealing to a male audience who placed themselves as "Ikoma" then Mumei is going to be rescued by the "MC". Pretty much expected nowadays.

Doesn't mean one should be obligated to conform to those "Hollywood blockbuster" tropes. Hell, Star Wars Episode VII should be setting a precedent on how you handle a badass lead female respectfully.

On a side note, it's actually surprising Ayame came out a lot better than her usual archetypes though I wished we've seen more of her using that steam-powered compound bow.

[moncikoma]

Originally Posted by darkchibi07

Doesn't mean one should be obligated to conform to those "Hollywood blockbuster" tropes. Hell, Star Wars Episode VII should be setting a precedent on how you handle a badass lead female respectfully.

On a side note, it's actually surprising Ayame came out a lot better than her usual archetypes though I wished we've seen more of her using that steam-powered compound bow.

[MeoTwister5]

Well the finale and the season ended up much like the capital station in which it all happened: crushed under the weight of it's chaos.

Really I didn't even mind Biba and everything that followed behind him. It honestly could have worked, if they didn't shoehorn and rush it all in to finish in 12 episodes. The ending obviously points to a plan for season 2, so if they had plans for the show to go beyond 12 episodes, then why rush the entire final arc? Biba would have been a much more acceptable and maybe even compelling villain if he wasn't rushed in into the final 4 episodes here.

If we were really getting Biba, he should have been in season 2 instead of this one. THAT would have given the production team enough time to flesh all of that story arc out, instead of the chaotic mess we got here.

[Router25]

Originally Posted by moncikoma

This face compels you to make it a meme.

Also Yukina releasing pressure limits one last time, and the train rides off to the sunrise.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Wait did they just leave the scientist somewhere to be eaten?

[Marcus H.]

This face compels you to make it a meme.

"Watashi, kininarimasu!"

[Kitsu Breaker]

Well, if had not romantic ending
that Is a lesson to no think all boy x girl relationship will be romantic
relieve.

[Benigmatica]

Originally Posted by Kitsu Breaker

Well, if had not romantic ending
that Is a lesson to no think all boy x girl relationship will be romantic
relieve.

Well, I think Ikoma's relationship with Mu- I mean Hozumi is nothing more than a sibling one.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kusaja

I see your point, but I am afraid we are going to remain in direct disagreement here. I don't think the only or even the "best" option for every dumb show is to literally go all the way into dumbness and never look back, no matter the consequences or the context. For my money, that can become an extreme and radical way of thinking. It ignores the risks involved in that approach including a lot of details along the way, both inside and outside of the show itself, as well as how other people within the audience might not desire such a potentially self-destructive resolution.

Just to be clear, I didn't necessarily need anybody else to die in this finale (Biba really did need to die, but he's the only character that absolutely had to, imo). That being said, if Ikoma or Mumei had died in this finale, I would have considered that much bolder than what we did get. It also would have counted as the "at least unpredictable" way to "good ending" that I mentioned before.

However, a feel-good ending like this one could still have worked, but it really needed to be zanier and/or more over-the-top, in my view.

Now I also see where you're coming from, but consider this - Even in a conventional shounen action-adventure show, don't you think the final fight should ideally be more impressive than any fight that came before? Like RX-78GP04G Gerbera wrote, even Monster!Horobi seemed more impressive overall than Monster!Mumei. On the whole, Monster!Horobi's rampage had much more visual impact and overall "Oomph!" than Ikoma vs. Biba and Monster!Mumei.

At the very least, Monster!Mumei should have come off as a bigger threat and/or a bigger challenge for Ikoma. Maybe the movie will be better in this area, but that doesn't help much right now of course.

As for my comments on it ceasing to be a zombie apocalypse show - In my view, once zombies are entirely interchangeable with "main bad guy's goons or robot warriors", then it no longer has the feel of a zombie show. I think that zombies lose their distinct horror quality when they become just another type of bad guy cannon fodder. They cease feeling like an uncontrollable and unpredictable and freakishly disturbing force of nature. Zombies can have a very pseudo-scientific explanation behind them, and even exist due to a mad scientist's experiments, but they should never feel like mere cannon fodder deployed by a human villain. Not if the show is supposed to be "zombie apocalypse show", anyway.

Originally Posted by Blonto

Being pure crazy action is what this show promised, the least they could've done is stay on track (heh) instead of putting everyone to sleep with a copy+paste villain and his revenge plot.

Agreed.

Doesn't OTP mean "one true pairing"? Or do you mean OP, as in overpowered?

In this case, I guess it could mean both. But like Tempester wrote, I meant "Over-The-Top". I probably should have used OTT instead.

Originally Posted by Tempester

Dammit, Triple_R, you took the words right out of my mouth. The attack on the train (Attack on Train? ) really stood out as an silly entertaining scene in an otherwise boring finale. The rest of the episode was so conventional and by the books that it felt like reading off of a script. Biba's previous actions make him way too much of an over-the-top wicked villain to be defeated in such a boring way; if they were going to ruin the show with his presence, they might as well have gone all the way through with him rather than chickening out in the last episode.

Agreed. And lol @ "Attack on Train".

In a better and/or more normal show, I would have been impressed with how they managed to have nice moments for almost every character of note. This finale probably was Ayame and Kurusu's best episode, they both shined in it. But I think that the finale was just way too much conventional anime ending for an anime as unusual as this one had become.

[Tormenk]

Fuck yeah Sahari got skewered. Even Ikoma thinks he's no different from Kabane that he deserved a piledriver to the heart. The finale could have used a good few more minutes especially during and after Biba's confrontation with Ikoma. Would have made for good introspection after Ikoma's survival on why Biba used the white serum on him.

Anyway, someone on reddit made a album out of all the official art twitted out during KnK's airing and it's a nice balance of cool and hilarious depictions of the cast. http://imgur.com/a/XAUNP

[Peanutbutter]

First half was brillant. Second half was snoozeworthy. We have one character to thank for that.

It's still a Kabane-infested world there. Their capital, their stronghold has been destroyed. It's gonna take a lot of rabbits from the hat to pull them out of this situation.

[orion]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Wait did they just leave the scientist somewhere to be eaten?

No...the scientist is prob on board. People don't leave tech and military behind.

He wasn't necessary for the final welcoming scenes and exit scenes.

I wouldn't expect them to spell everything our for you.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Tormenk

. Would have made for good introspection after Ikoma's survival on why Biba used the white serum on him.

He was prob looking for someone to pass the team over to and to kill him since he was a Kabaneri with prob little time left. He found Ikoma (who was a male kabane which was rare, wasn't scared of Kabane, came after Biba to kill him, and cared for Mumei.) He saved his life so his team had a new leader and Mumei would have someone to look out for her.

[SethOfI]

Spoiler for Basically reveals a villain in the show, even though most reading probably already know at this point.:

I guess I shouldn't be surprised to see so many people disliked the show, particularly after Biba makes an appearance. To be honest though, I didn't mind it at all. I would still call it one of my favorites this season based on the merits of being entertaining. I don't even think that Biba as a villain didn't play the part well. To me, the only thing that I wish they would have improved on was his reason for being a villain in the first place.

It feels like they didn't develop enough on what made him into the villain he became, at least for me. I think it really comes down to what some people are saying about it feeling rushed towards the end. But I won't go so far as to say the ending was bad. It wasn't a fantastic ending but I enjoyed the show all the way through, ending included.

Either way I'm just glad they did wrap up the series realistically. No matter how much you disagree with them setting unrealistic goals, it took some composure on the writers parts not to make them come true. There's still a threat, and yet I didn't feel a particularly strong motion that they wanted to make a second season happen. A "realistic" ending to say the least. Sure it's "feel good", but it doesn't dance around the fact that there's still hardships to come from the setting they're stuck with.

[Kusaja]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Just to be clear, I didn't necessarily need anybody else to die in this finale (Biba really did need to die, but he's the only character that absolutely had to, imo). That being said, if Ikoma or Mumei had died in this finale, I would have considered that much bolder than what we did get. It also would have counted as the "at least unpredictable" way to "good ending" that I mentioned before.

Would killing Ikoma or Mumei really count as "at least unpredictable" in this context? I believe plenty of folks were speculating about such a thing here and elsewhere. Even me. Mumei dying would also further reinforce the Guilty Crown comparisons, so it's almost the opposite of hard to predict (nor would it lead to less criticisms in that regard). In fact, letting both of them live is actually a more "bold" or at least novel decision when compared to the staff's previous record. The survival of both characters is not what the audience expected out of them and thus we were wrong about that. But like I've also said before, it sure seems impossible to please everyone at this point, since we would be having a similar conversation even if they had died.

Now I also see where you're coming from, but consider this - Even in a conventional shounen action-adventure show, don't you think the final fight should ideally be more impressive than any fight that came before? Like RX-78GP04G Gerbera wrote, even Monster!Horobi seemed more impressive overall than Monster!Mumei. On the whole, Monster!Horobi's rampage had much more visual impact and overall "Oomph!" than Ikoma vs. Biba and Monster!Mumei.

It could be expected and that's usually the case, but there have also been exceptions where the final fight is not necessarily the most impressive battle in the story. There might be more stakes involved, which was definitely applicable here, without necessarily making the scale the most "epic" in nature. Or there might not even be a combat scene in the traditional sense in certain stories. Going back to this particular situation, I would say the battle against Biba could have been improved the most. I've already mentioned my doubts about the show's ability to further increase the focus on Monster Mumei as a threat without also adding more of a stereotypical element of angst between her and Ikoma. Better for action, yes, but it'd be a miracle if that avoided any complaints.

As for my comments on it ceasing to be a zombie apocalypse show - In my view, once zombies are entirely interchangeable with "main bad guy's goons or robot warriors", then it no longer has the feel of a zombie show. I think that zombies lose their distinct horror quality when they become just another type of bad guy cannon fodder. They cease feeling like an uncontrollable and unpredictable and freakishly disturbing force of nature. Zombies can have a very pseudo-scientific explanation behind them, and even exist due to a mad scientist's experiments, but they should never feel like mere cannon fodder deployed by a human villain. Not if the show is supposed to be "zombie apocalypse show", anyway.

I am too used to things like the Resident Evil games to have a problem with the idea of zombies as cannon fodder. Also, we both know Biba did not create the zombies and was just exploiting their existence and the fear of infection. Honestly, the zombies were already cannon fodder on an individual level in this setting even before the introduction of Biba. They were only a real threat when a large mass of them were overrunning a station. Save for the so-called black smoke and the specialized zombies who could at least temporarily surprise them with a sword or martial arts technique, but they were rare. Neither Ikoma nor Mumei had too much trouble dealing with them after the first episode. Nor did the main cast of Highschool of the Dead, for example, have any trouble killing zombies once they all got together. In other words, I do not think this sort of situation concerning the use of zombies and their eventually reduced threat level is as unusual as you may be feeling it.

In a better and/or more normal show, I would have been impressed with how they managed to have nice moments for almost every character of note. This finale probably was Ayame and Kurusu's best episode, they both shined in it. But I think that the finale was just way too much conventional anime ending for an anime as unusual as this one had become.

Whereas I think those nice moments are not automatically transformed into terrible things, so to speak, even in this dumb show. It's why we will disagree. Ignoring them completely in exchange for more action would not have been any sort of improvement in my opinion, nor do I think it would have changed the more negative outlooks from other posters. But again, I do not think normality equals wrong and other viewers have at least acknowledged those scenes as a positive rather than a source of criticism, beyond their opinions about the rest of the show.

[moncikoma]

kabaneri = Infinite Stratos, but without fan service..

why it sells? because of mumei, lots of interesting couple to ships.. lots of intense moment..Sawano soundtracks, AIMER, and egoist..

why its sucks? because it doesnt have any depth..in plot and villain

why i love it : because of haruhiko mikimoto, and mumei..

why it has a rushed ending? : because it only have 20 minutes.. and AOT season 2 is coming !!

7/10 enjoyable.. but im so hyped with mumei, and sawano.. so maybe 7.5/10 is OK