Danganronpa 3: Future Arc - Episode 3 Discussion / Poll

[HandofFate]

So I'm not very deep into the lore.

So the students that were killed in danganronpa 1 got revived into despair zombies or something?

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by HandofFate

So I'm not very deep into the lore.

So the students that were killed in danganronpa 1 got revived into despair zombies or something?

No, they are without a doubt dead. Those that are in DR3 are the sole survivors of the first game.

[AC-Phoenix]

^
Is what we are made to believe up to this point.
I still think there is something going on regarding Chisa looking that much like Junko from the side.

[Klashikari]

You are suspecting those corpses even though Kyouko inspected them back in DR1? I find it incredibly inconsistent to expect any of the old cast of DR1 to be alive.

[R.LocK]

Can we drop the notion that original Enoshima Junko is somehow alive? Even if she is, after Remnants of Despair were done with her body, I'd rather not take a look at the end result.

I'd rather go with Monaca theory, to be honest.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

You are suspecting those corpses even though Kyouko inspected them back in DR1? I find it incredibly inconsistent to expect any of the old cast of DR1 to be alive.

No, its really just Junko's - the one that has never been examined by anayone even remotely qualifying for the detective role.

Originally Posted by R.LocK

Can we drop the notion that original Enoshima Junko is somehow alive? Even if she is, after Remnants of Despair were done with her body, I'd rather not take a look at the end result.

The thing is that there is no certainy that it even was Junko's corpse to begin with.
The other thing is that AI junko hinted that brain wave transfer might be possible - she even talked about uploading herself into one of her lacky's brains.

In DR you can easily manipulate memories, in other words lock the proteins that make them up from being acessible. So why wouldn't you be able to completely overwrite them with, say the original Junko's? Since people are pretty much the result of their memories and experiences it would be pretty much like Junko is still alive.

[Klashikari]

We already discussed several times already: it doesn't make sense for Junko to stage her fake final execution considering how she lost during the final trial and her characterization thus far, moreover when the survivors where witnessing the mad girl in action. That's also why R.Lock said "original junko": no one is against the possibility of another junko backup or such.

But expecting the real (aka original) one to be alive after all this time is unreasonable, with all narrative around her character in multiple media.

[HandofFate]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

No, they are without a doubt dead. Those that are in DR3 are the sole survivors of the first game.

Then what's the deal with Makoto running into remnant of despair versions of them and trying to save them as if they were the real ones.

[SilverSyko]

The Remnants of Despair and the characters that died in Danganronpa 1 aren't the same people, but I thought that was kind of obvious.

[Renchan]

Originally Posted by HandofFate

Then what's the deal with Makoto running into remnant of despair versions of them and trying to save them as if they were the real ones.

Huh? But Remnant of despairs are different people. We have only seen glimpse of their pre-SDR2 selves in future arc (and pre-despair version in despair-arc).

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

We already discussed several times already: it doesn't make sense for Junko to stage her fake final execution considering how she lost during the final trial and her characterization thus far, moreover when the survivors where witnessing the mad girl in action. That's also why R.Lock said "original junko": no one is against the possibility of another junko backup or such.

But expecting the real (aka original) one to be alive after all this time is unreasonable, with all narrative around her character in multiple media.

Its always arguagble if a complete brainwave transfer would result in an original Junko or not;

As for the other point:
Thing is Junko is known to be both cunning AND fickle. - the latter part being the reason I refuse to tell her dead until there is definite proof. Something that is simply not there at this point of time.
For all there is faking her death upon being revealed could have been her plan from the very beginning.

[SibylEnd]

Spoiler for Messy post:

Originally Posted by Klashikari

That's why I compared him and Kyosuke in such manner. I don't see how it is conflicting with what you just said. Makoto and Kyosuke has the same objective, but with dramatically opposed means and ideals.

Courting self harm is hardly a peaceful means as people are still in danger, it's just being placed in danger himself as opposed to another, the difference between extremism and pacifism is hardly a matter of who is getting hurt, it should be that he would pursue an outcome where no one is hurt. I guess it's a matter of perspective but I don't think makoto is a pacifist by virtue of him not defending himself and simply trying to talk things out. he'll talk to them not because he believes in peaceful means but because he believes in his comrades.

As he's simply allowing himself to die; knowing that kyosuke won't stop after killing him. if he was truly attempting to be a pacifist right now, then he would just be a short sighted one that doesn't value his own life, throwing yourself into gun fire and saying "come and get me" and then trying to talk is not a purely pacifical act. humoring violence like that isn't going to stop it, which was not his intention; makoto has been prepared to die multiple times already. I guess it's really a matter of perspective, wether you think self-harm/endangerment constitutes extremism/pacifism.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Kibougamine academy secret agenda has nothing to do with the huge disorder the world is currently in. Also no, Kyousuke doesn't even tie Makoto with the academy image. Rather, the concept of hope itself is completely backwards to him: eradicating despair is what hope is for him, whereas Makoto believe that hope is the one mean to defeat despair.

Seemed pretty relevant in SDR2, the agenda that had them cover up a murder and let a mentally compromised individual run free in their school. i don't think it's your place to say there is no correlation between naegi and hopes peaks values. Kyosuke directly addresses naegi's attempts to produce a large amount of hope out of fear that it will all fall apart, just like what hopes peak was to the common man, a prospective school that produced legendary people. kyosuke figures that if he undermines makotos attempts; the hope that would collapse and produce despair would be removed. destroying despair. the similarity is there.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

It is very doubtful because unlike in this situation, there is no "try again" if the guess is wrong. Kyousuke wouldn't make such a calm and swift decision if he was in the same class as Makoto. The context is way too different.

there is the "no try again" element, since people are dead now and you don't get a second chance to save them, the consequences to making the wrong choice being killing an innocent person here, it's substantially less sure. sure the kyosuke of then could be a different person after never experiencing the despair, but I was only ever referring this kyosuke for this choice. and it's less guess work, the context for the decision was an educated one, not like kyosukes "choose a random person to kill". and c'mon, you knew the guess wrong and everyone dies was irrelevant to that case. it was only ever about choosing to trust kirigiri or not.

the rest is me comparing and framing their beliefs in context of decisions and interpretations of events that are designed to test those beliefs relative to decisions the other made in the past.
In regards to that trial being out of context, I was refering to that trial since it hinged on makotos beliefs undermining the rules placed by monokuma, the rules of the game are irrelevant. the only thing that's relevant in that comparison is simply the decision to believe in kirigiri/comrades or not, which is the only thing I refer to.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Kyousuke is actually confronting Makoto's despair experience with his. As in: despair in the world was a complete chaos not bound by any rules. In contrast with DR1 where Monokuma didn't lift a fingers on the students outside of the rules, Kyousuke had it "rougher" because the SHLS despair showed no mercy and killed millions of people without being bound by rules whatsoever.

Kyosukes current ideas and methods are constituted by his experiences, and those experiences were brought up in context to kyosuke questioning the quality of his speech. I'm kind of curious as to where you get the idea that their ideals are opposed, as kyosuke agreed with makoto's speech and only thought it was inadequate since makoto's experiences and such wouldn't resonate with the other participants. and generally along with the fact that Kyosuke is trying to talk to makoto implies he is prepared to follow naegi once Makoto adequately refutes the doubts about him that Kyosuke has harboured

in any case this is just my interpretation of things. I mostly go off topic and into random rants, everything else I agree with and your main points have alot of merrits. I think my writing structure is just off, I'll probably ignore the next reply if it's about questioning the quality of my points. because i'm not all for rephrasing my posts multiple times, especially when i agree with the primary points the initial post made. should have made it more clear that i was only ever refuting the pacifist comment/comparison. even then that's just me being subjective

Edit/final notes:I'm not sure where you get the idea where trust doesn't play into this at all, esspecially after kirigiri just tackled this angle of the game. i'd prefer if you explained why something is, rather than stating that something is, because I can't adequately construct a response without understanding your reasoning. I edit too much

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by SibylEnd

As he's simply allowing himself to die; knowing that kyosuke won't stop after killing him. if he was truly attempting to be a pacifist right now, then he would just be a short sighted one that doesn't value his own life, throwing yourself into gun fire and saying "come and get me" and then trying to talk is not a purely pacifical act. humoring violence like that isn't going to stop it, which was not his intention; makoto has been prepared to die multiple times already. I guess it's really a matter of perspective, wether you think self-harm/endangerment constitutes extremism/pacifism.

I can't call that short sighted if it actually inspires other people to do that. Unless I missed the memo, individuals like Gandhi are still called pacifists even though they were at risk of being killed. A pacifist is acting with the belief that violence and war is wrong and other means should be considered. It absolutely doesn't mean they are doing their best not to be at the receiving end in the process. Valueing one's life and acting based on their beliefs are complete seperate matters. I don't see where the concept of pacifism has to involve self protection as well. They aren't mutually exclusive, but the former doesn't need the latter.

Seemed pretty relevant in SDR2, the agenda that had them cover up a murder and let a mentally compromised individual run free in their school. i don't think it's your place to say there is no correlation between naegi and hopes peaks values. Kyosuke directly addresses naegi's attempts to produce a large amount of hope out of fear that it will all fall apart, just like what hopes peak was to the common man, a prospective school that produced legendary people. kyosuke figures that if he undermines makotos attempts; the hope that would collapse and produce despair would be removed. destroying despair. the similarity is there.

Giving parallelism between Makoto's attempt to spread hope and Kibougamine recruiting talents as hope of humanity doesn't mean Kyousuke make such parallelism whatsoever.

I would have agreed if Kyousuke ordered the FF to completely ignore or even slaughter current/former kibougamine students (as they are product of the said school), yet didn't do that.

Thus far in future arc, I don't see anything that makes Kyousuke resenting Makoto for doing "the same as what kibougamine did".

there is the "no try again" element, since people are dead now and you don't get a second chance to save them, the consequences to making the wrong choice being killing an innocent person here, it's substantially less sure. sure the kyosuke of then could be a different person after never experiencing the despair, but I was only ever referring this kyosuke for this choice. and it's less guess work, the context for the decision was an educated one, not like kyosukes "choose a random person to kill". and c'mon, you knew the guess wrong and everyone dies was irrelevant to that case. it was only ever about choosing to trust kirigiri or not.

You are missing the point: in DR1 case, there is absolutely no proper evidence except in Makoto's perspective that Monokuma tried to frame Kyouko in order to eliminate her, especially due to the information he got (mainly encountering her with the master key).
Because of this, even the likes of Byakuya had to think twice before indicting someone because if they fail to pinpoint the "culprit", everyone else would die. If we put Kyousuke in that situation, he wouldn't immediately indict Kyouko as you think he would because unlike Monokuma hunter, if he is wrong, it is all over: the culprit will live, he and the rest will die and the despair will spread.
Monokuma hunter is very different because the culprit is always the same person (presumbly) and even if you kill an innocent, he could try that again unless he is the victim.

That's why I brought the rules of both games because the context is so different you can't just say "well, he would have called out Kyouko" as if he was an absolutely contrapositive of Makoto.

Kyosukes current ideas and methods are constituted by his experiences, and those experiences were brought up in context to kyosuke questioning the quality of his speech. I'm kind of curious as to where you get the idea that their ideals are opposed, as kyosuke agreed with makoto's speech and only thought it was inadequate since makoto's experiences and such wouldn't resonate with the other participants. Kyosuke is prepared to follow naegi once he adequately refutes the doubts about makoto that he has harboured

Kyousuke's behaviour towards Makoto pretty much demonstrates how their ideals are incompatible. He not only dismissed Makoto's experience as a "mere game", but he also denied Makoto's claims by calling them hollows. His final act is an obvious demonstration of his rebuttal to Makoto's beliefs: that words and hope alone cannot vainquish despair and that only strength is the answer.

Because of this, I believe both don't share the same ideals (hope VS strength) even though their goal is the same (eliminating despair).
This is why I don't see why you put the whole trust matter in there either: Juuzo is trusted by Kyousuke because he shares the same ideals and train of thought. That means Kyousuke doesn't have a "trust issue": he just doesn't believe in people that are "naive" like Makoto. That's the very reason why the whole point isn't about "willing to rely on allies or not" but an issue in term of conviction.

[SibylEnd]

Ok that was pretty comprehensive, yeah I think i'll change my perspective of the character. In regards to pacifism I guess it's a gray area, that or it's neither. while Naegi does employ non violent means those might just be circumstantial (not like he can fight even if he tried). i.e. it's not like i'm a pacifist just because i'm law abiding or anything, that would just be circumstantial pacifism. but I guess someone can be say, an extremist without actually acknowledging that quality themselves, so i'll concede; Makoto may be a pacifist, but i don't think he acknowledges that quality about himself. But like you said; this pacifism discussion is pretty irrelevant.

to me at least Makoto is generally illustrating trust in his companions by putting himself in this situation, if he didn't believe in Kyosuke; why would he let Kyosuke confront him or try to talk to everyone. I could talk about how I think Naegi attempts to develop hope within the team, but then i'd just get nebulous with all the despair and hope terms.

in regards to the trust issue, Juuzo is expressing ideals that reflect Kyosukes own values, and Kyosuke believes in himself. while he may trust Juuzo it's my belief that it's only limited to the qualities that reflect himself, even when those qualities are the catalyst for an unnecessary death. likewise that would be the same reason he works with the future foundation, even though he clearly has his own agenda after he undermines Kazous position as well as presents a lack of faith in the leader of future foundation.
maybe it's just my frothing hate for the guy and his attitude clouding my judgement, needless to say he rubs me the wrong way in the way that he fights for hope but employs means that invoke despair. never liked the end justified the means approach.

most of my general opinion on the character hinges on my belief that the strong don't compromise, and kyousuke is making moral compromises against his comrades simply because it's a means to and end. it's my belief that Makoto is stronger in that regard. you don't have to agree with me here.
you could say that Kyousuke never had set moral values to cross/compromise, but even then he'd just be a sociopath on par with Komaeda.

in regards to the shortsighted comment that was only conjecture in regards to presenting a scenario where successive deaths would happen after makotos own death, in context to makoto being a supposed pacifist. if that was the case then Makoto's best interest would be to stay alive so then kyousuke doesn't go after anyone else. I don't think anyone would be particularly inspired by Makoto for being cut down by Kyousuke, everyone would just start doubting everyone after the prime suspect is proved innocent(me assuming Naegi is indeed innocent).

[Dengar]

So I meant to say this last time, but from examining everything, pretty much all the new characters are highly suspicious. I mean some of them have a bigger chance of being the traitor than others, but a lot of them seem suspicious.

Also, something about Kyosuke's behavior made me think of another possibility.

What if the traitor isn't aware of the fact that they are the traitor? I'm not saying it's Kyosuke necessarily, but something about the way he said "you do not know despair" made me think.


Also, while I am relieved that Asahina is alive, I do worry for her safety.

[SibylEnd]

Asahina's red herring, i'm kinda annoyed with the 180 they pulled there, did the killer just want her to take some of her clothes off(not joking)? what was that even about? did the killer spill something on her and attempt to cover it up or hide an important clue in the jacket? a part of me thinks he just wanted a spare blazer for some future set-up.

Seems ridiculous to think that killer supposedly found Makoto, broke into the room he was hiding in, put tomato sauce on her and Makoto and then string up Gozu after killing him, reset the bulwark the team had set up and then ran back to his original position all within a tight time limit set by Monokuma.

I'm going to pressume that Kyousuke isn't the traitor until we get more information on the NG actions, some NG's make some suspects impossible with the information we have.

I really wouldn't like the idea that the primary killer in this season isn't of sound mind when killing, I think it's more likely that the attacker and the traitor are two different people, or that there are just more than one killer if there is going to be a twist later. i.e. the traitor is the one who killed all the security guards or simply provide and entry point for monokuma,(i.e. the helicopter driver who brought naegi over could have been the same one that shot at hagakure, implying he is in on this) while the killer is just the monitor of the kill switches (still avidly believing that). If this is true it could be that Kyousuke is the potential traitor who organised a coup? I wouldn't put it past Kodaka to spin this to that the most clean individual in the beginning turns out to be the true killer.

[MeoTwister5]

I am actually assuming that the reason why Gozu fake killed Asahina was an act of self sacrifice. That is to say that he knew someone in their room was gonna die and by making the killer think Asahina was already dead he'd be the next available target.

But wait! Why not kill Naegi?

Probably because the killer's restriction is that he cannot kill Naegi. This coincides with Monokuma's desire to finally bring him down into despair.

If Naegi dies then in actuality Monokuma's desire to finally break him fails. We must also assume that the rest of the participants are not necessarily totally restricted from killing each other as they had already attempted to do so. As such it further drives home the idea that the killer and Monokuma and one and the same or at least in cahoots. The killer is not necessarily someone forced to kill lest they die from their own bracelet.

[Rias]

Asahina surviving is fine and all (character-wise because of DR1 connection), but that totally killed the suspense there. Munakata is turning into an annoying character as he's giving out more and more nonsense. First his speech to have Naegi to kill himself makes no sense (if Naegi is actually bad, there's no way he would do that. If he's good, more the reason not to.) His whole motive to reject Naegi sounds nothing but spreading more despair to me. Unless his forbidden action is that he cannot agree with Naegi or something along the lines of that.


Regarding the death of Mozu, I actually find that quite shady. I know this borders the trick used in DP1, but did they check that it's actually him under the mask for the corpse? What if it's actually farmer-Kyugyu?

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

I am actually assuming that the reason why Gozu fake killed Asahina was an act of self sacrifice. That is to say that he knew someone in their room was gonna die and by making the killer think Asahina was already dead he'd be the next available target.

But wait! Why not kill Naegi?

Probably because the killer's restriction is that he cannot kill Naegi. This coincides with Monokuma's desire to finally bring him down into despair.

Makes sense.
Most Characters who could actually lift him up like that are depserately set on killing Naegi though.

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

If Naegi dies then in actuality Monokuma's desire to finally break him fails. We must also assume that the rest of the participants are not necessarily totally restricted from killing each other as they had already attempted to do so. As such it further drives home the idea that the killer and Monokuma and one and the same or at least in cahoots. The killer is not necessarily someone forced to kill lest they die from their own bracelet.

The killer is certainly someone who knows they are the killer, otherwise Chisa's death makes no sense (which it imho doesn't in the first place but yeah...)

Originally Posted by Rias

Regarding the death of Mozu, I actually find that quite shady. I know this borders the trick used in DP1, but did they check that it's actually him under the mask for the corpse? What if it's actually farmer-Kyugyu?

Entirely possible, although people would easily realise that once they go back to the conference room.
But yeah Fake corpses being used in this will be a given. (and I mean real fake corpses, not trolling).
I suepect something of the sorts being pulled with the confectioner and Chisa though as they have at least similar hair colors. (depending on the light lol) - I'm more dfor 'Just chisa is the fake corpse' though;

Anotgher thing I could see is the confectioner being the mastermind, mastermind as in not the killer but still Monokuma. The way she makes sure she has the guy as her ally is a bit too strange.
At least considering the cat fight in this episode where she starts out by hiding behind him already

[steam fish]

Lol I couldn't take Naegi seriously at the end when he said "If they're empty, you can fill the in later!" because I kept thinking of Akane's "If your head isn't empty you can't fill it up with dreams!" On another note, Asahina's faked death kinda gives me mixed feelings. On one hand I'm glad she's alive but on the other I can no longer single-mindedly ship Kirigiri and Naegi after all those flags last episode with Asahina