(L+CR) Shokugeki no Souma (Food Wars) S2: "The 2nd Plate"

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

You know, the more I see Soma lost the final duels (while promise to constantly better himself), the more I see Satoshi in him. You know, back then when earlier Pokemon aired, it was quite surprising for me to see an MC in a kids show who (repeatedly) lost in the final duel(s) like Satoshi. Yet, it can still send good messages to its child/young audience to "give it your all" and "never stop improving yourself". So far, Soma seem to posses less champion-titles on his belt compared to his chef-MC predecessors (Youichi Ajiyoshi, Liu Mao Xing, Azuma Kazuma, etc) IIRC. I wonder if the mangaka took some notes from Pokemon as the approach of Soma's journey .

Well, having the MC lose one of the early big challenges when nothing too serious is at stake is kind of a staple of Shonen series. Remember that Goku didn't win a Tenkaichi tournament until the very end of the Dragonball anime.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by frubam

Yeah, but in terms of what he's accomplished, he far outweighs any of his competition. Dueling with Shinomiya and taking back the 99 kitchen utensils(basically everything Itsuki was telling that other guy) is what cements himself differently amongst his peers.

Oh, I don't deny that .

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

Well, having the MC lose one of the early big challenges when nothing too serious is at stake is kind of a staple of Shonen series. Remember that Goku didn't win a Tenkaichi tournament until the very end of the Dragonball anime.

I'd say winning Tenkaichi Budokai was only a serious goal in DB the first couple of times. After Piccolo appeared, the whole thing becomes an irrelevant side-quest or amusement, unlike the Pokemon Tournaments where Satoshi lost in finals for how many times now, I can't remember coz the show has been going on forever.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I'd say winning Tenkaichi Budokai was only a serious goal in DB the first couple of times. After Piccolo appeared, the whole thing becomes an irrelevant side-quest or amusement, unlike the Pokemon Tournaments where Satoshi lost in finals for how many times now, I can't remember coz the show has been going on forever.

I just used that as an example, I don't know about Pokemon but my point was that it's pretty much a staple of Shonen manga/anime that the first big tournament is a loss for the protagonist/s, as soon as it's safe for it to be so (aka there's no risk of life, limb or career). Sports series especially do this. It's not really surprising that it followed that template, almost everyone does it.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

I just used that as an example, I don't know about Pokemon but my point was that it's pretty much a staple of Shonen manga/anime that the first big tournament is a loss for the protagonist/s, as soon as it's safe for it to be so (aka there's no risk of life, limb or career). Sports series especially do this. It's not really surprising that it followed that template, almost everyone does it.

But not for cooking anime AFAIK. Also, I disagree about shonen tend to make their MCs lost at early tournaments. You can find one of them in my avy & sig: Yugi didn't lose the early Duel Kingdom and Battle City tournaments. In fact, he rarely lose. Same thing happened in Saint Seiya, Yu Yu Hakusho, and many others.

[Hakai]

I didn't really mind Souma losing and I think Hayama actually deserved to win this time
but that speech from Isshiki still annoys the **** out of me for some reason.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

But not for cooking anime AFAIK. Also, I disagree about shonen tend to make their MCs lost at early tournaments. You can find one of them in my avy & sig: Yugi didn't lose the early Duel Kingdom and Battle City tournaments. In fact, he rarely lose. Same thing happened in Saint Seiya, Yu Yu Hakusho, and many others.

Both Yugi and Yu Yu however had big stakes in their respective tournaments. See my post. Of course they couldn't lose, they would die/the bad guys would conquer the world if they did. And Yami never losing was a big point of his entire character arc (which resolves when he gets defeated by Yugi at the very end). On the other hand, Yu Yu loses in the last tournament, in the demon world, where there is no particular reason at stake for him to win.

And I'd say "cooking anime" is hardly a representative sample, there's not that many of those... Shokugeki follows the template of a sports anime through and through. It just uses cooking competitions instead of tennis, football or whatever.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

Both Yugi and Yu Yu however had big stakes in their respective tournaments. See my post. Of course they couldn't lose, they would die/the bad guys would conquer the world if they did. And Yami never losing was a big point of his entire character arc (which resolves when he gets defeated by Yugi at the very end). On the other hand, Yu Yu loses in the last tournament, in the demon world, where there is no particular reason at stake for him to win.

And I'd say "cooking anime" is hardly a representative sample, there's not that many of those... Shokugeki follows the template of a sports anime through and through. It just uses cooking competitions instead of tennis, football or whatever.

Then your argument that shonen MCs tend to lose in their "first big tournaments" (your words) is moot. Just say that the MCs can lose in a match when the stakes are little to none, and I'll agree with you.

As for other cooking-anime, there's a lot of duels, matches and tournaments in Mr. Ajikko, Cooking Master Boy and Yakitate, Japan!! (like in SnS) which were immensely popular in Japan (especially the first and last ones). Did you know that Mr. Ajikko is the inspiration for Iron Chef which inspired hundreds more similar shows? So, even if there's only few battle-cooking shows out there, the tropes are already well-known & cemented and often parodied in many other anime (you can see one of them in Attack on Titan OVA for example). Also, the reason there's not many of it is because only few authors have or willing to do research about numerous (delicious & exceptional) food, snacks, bakery & cookings and how to make them and make a good (competitive) story with those materials. Because, unlike battle-shonen (and sometimes even sport) with fantastical powers that defy logic, you cannot present a food/cookings made out of BS ingredients and techniques (unless the story was set in fantastical world with different animals & plants) coz the audience will know and the author will look stupid for making it. Ridiculously exaggerated expressions after tasting the food are okay, but the food must be valid. And not many authors are patient enough to do that.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Then your argument that shonen MCs tend to lose in their "first big tournaments" (your words) is moot. Just say that the MCs can lose in a match when the stakes are little to none, and I'll agree with you.

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

it's pretty much a staple of Shonen manga/anime that the first big tournament is a loss for the protagonist/s, as soon as it's safe for it to be so (aka there's no risk of life, limb or career).

That's kind of what WAS said.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by GDB

That's kind of what WAS said.

His own example of Goku's lost in his early Tenkaichi Budokai in DB gave me the impression that Gan Hope also stressed on first/early tournaments. And he also mentioned "early big challenges" first and "nothing too serious is at stake" comes second in his post above .

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Then your argument that shonen MCs tend to lose in their "first big tournaments" (your words) is moot. Just say that the MCs can lose in a match when the stakes are little to none, and I'll agree with you.

As for other cooking-anime, there's a lot of duels, matches and tournaments in Mr. Ajikko, Cooking Master Boy and Yakitate, Japan!! (like in SnS) which were immensely popular in Japan (especially the first and last ones). Did you know that Mr. Ajikko is the inspiration for Iron Chef which inspired hundreds more similar shows? So, even if there's only few battle-cooking shows out there, the tropes are already well-known & cemented and often parodied in many other anime (you can see one of them in Attack on Titan OVA for example). Also, the reason there's not many of it is because only few authors have or willing to do research about numerous (delicious & exceptional) food, snacks, bakery & cookings and how to make them and make a good (competitive) story with those materials. Because, unlike battle-shonen (and sometimes even sport) with fantastical powers that defy logic, you cannot present a food/cookings made out of BS ingredients and techniques (unless the story was set in fantastical world with different animals & plants) coz the audience will know and the author will look stupid for making it. Ridiculously exaggerated expressions after tasting the food are okay, but the food must be valid. And not many authors are patient enough to do that.

Well, "tend to" implying that it's something that often happens early on because it shows that the hero still has potential/isn't perfect, not by all means something that always happens (also YuYu is by Togashi and therefore breaks some expectations by default). Tends to be earlier because usually the stakes grow bigger and bigger as time goes on but doesn't have to always be.

As for cooking shows, I only heard of Yakitake amongst those, but I still think it's not a reason not to consider them sort of a sub genre of sports shows, with tournaments, training, wanting to be the best, etc. Like, there are multiple shows about soccer, doesn't mean "soccer shows" are completely different from every other entry in the wider sports genre. Anyway this was Souma's first chance to lose in something that wouldn't get him expelled or similar dramatic consequences so the likelihood for him to lose so that he could grow was extremely high, that's all I meant.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

Well, "tend to" implying that it's something that often happens early on because it shows that the hero still has potential/isn't perfect, not by all means something that always happens (also YuYu is by Togashi and therefore breaks some expectations by default). Tends to be earlier because usually the stakes grow bigger and bigger as time goes on but doesn't have to always be.

See, you're still arguing about your "lost in early tournaments"-point. If so, then please show me at least ten popular shonen shows in any decade (70s, 80s, or 90s etc) where the MCs lost in his early big tournaments or challenges that can validate your "tend to be earlier" claim.

Mind you that I agree with your "MC can lose when the match has little-to-no stakes"-point, but your other point that "shonen tend to make their MCs lost in early tournaments" I just can't agree with as I honestly don't see it in my long experience watching anime, but I'll be happy to be proven wrong in this.

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

As for cooking shows, I only heard of Yakitake amongst those, but I still think it's not a reason not to consider them sort of a sub genre of sports shows, with tournaments, training, wanting to be the best, etc. Like, there are multiple shows about soccer, doesn't mean "soccer shows" are completely different from every other entry in the wider sports genre. Anyway this was Souma's first chance to lose in something that wouldn't get him expelled or similar dramatic consequences so the likelihood for him to lose so that he could grow was extremely high, that's all I meant.

See the bolded parts. Doesn't that mean that every show with competitive element and matches can be categorized as sports? Then you'll categorize DB, Yu Yu Hakusho, HxH, Flame of Recca, Fairy Tail, G Gundam, etc who have a number of "tournaments, training, wanting to be the best" as sports too? Does sport genre have no limitations when it comes to competitive elements and tournaments?

[Gan_HOPE326]

Ah, I don't really want to drag this on so long. Those shows are all part of the shonen genre, which is even wider, and of which most sports shows are a part of.
As for examples, let's see, out of what I can think of:

Dragonball
My Hero Academia
HunterXHunter
(debatable: Naruto, as the Chunin exam is never properly resolved but it surely ends with Naruto NOT passing, as only Shikamaru gets the promotion)
Eyeshield 21 (the match with the NASA guys)
Hikaru no Go (the first school tournament ends in disqualification)
Baby Steps

...these are the first ones that come to my mind. There's probably more but I have to go now.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

Ah, I don't really want to drag this on so long. Those shows are all part of the shonen genre, which is even wider, and of which most sports shows are a part of.

That's a pretty broad strokes you got there . And you still not answered my question: are all those shows included in sports genre too? Because according to your criteria, almost all battle-shonen are sport shows. Oh, and there's also harem-fantasy-action shows like Asterisk who also has "tournaments, training, wanting to be the best"-element. Does that mean any fantasy-harem with tournaments are also sports shows based on your criteria?

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

As for examples, let's see, out of what I can think of:

Dragonball
My Hero Academia
HunterXHunter
(debatable: Naruto, as the Chunin exam is never properly resolved but it surely ends with Naruto NOT passing, as only Shikamaru gets the promotion)
Eyeshield 21 (the match with the NASA guys)
Hikaru no Go (the first school tournament ends in disqualification)
Baby Steps

...these are the first ones that come to my mind. There's probably more but I have to go now.

I said "ten shows in any decade". That means you may choose tens shows from each known decade (70s, 80s, etc) not cherry-picking ten shows from the last 40 years . For example, you cannot group DB & Hikaru no Go together because they're not from the same decade. They're worlds apart and don't represent a trend. Also, why did you include Hunter x Hunter? Gon...

Spoiler for Spoiler for Hunter Exam result in HxH:

...beat his first Hunter Exam (along with Leo & Kura) and he became a hunter like he intended. He was just upset about Killua who failed.

[Jaden]

Well, in typical shounen action series, "the tournament arc" is a one-time thing. So I can't really see a pattern of the protagonist losing tournaments initially. It may exist in sports series, which I haven't seen a lot of.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Also, why did you include Hunter x Hunter? Gon...

Spoiler for Spoiler for Hunter Exam result in HxH:

...beat his first Hunter Exam (along with Leo & Kura) and he became a hunter like he intended. He was just upset about Killua who failed.

The Exam had still stakes, Gon needed to become a Hunter for the story to start. I was thinking of...

Spoiler for HXH:

Heaven's Arena, and Gon's loss against Hisoka. Which was of course a foregone conclusion but that's the point of this kind of trope, to show that there's always bigger fish around.

Anyway I don't care any longer frankly, I don't think it's that important. I just tend to see the pattern, enough that I expected Soma to lose. Obviously I just imagined it all because I can't name some 70s anime which did the same thing, since obviously tropes have to be fixed from the beginning of time, and therefore this is not a thing at all. Congratulations, you win this Internet Argument (TM).

[CrowKenobi]

I think that the comparisons to other shounen series has run its course. If anyone feels that they have to continue it, take it to PM, VM or make a social group.

Thanks.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Well, in typical shounen action series, "the tournament arc" is a one-time thing. So I can't really see a pattern of the protagonist losing tournaments initially.

Yep. I agree.

Originally Posted by Jaden

It may exist in sports series, which I haven't seen a lot of.

Even in sport series, it is varied and more of a mixed bag.

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

Obviously I just imagined it all because I can't name some 70s anime which did the same thing,

I don't like it when my comment is misinterpreted like this (complete with sarcasm). Feel free to mention any new shonen series from 2010s decade that fits your criteria if you will. I'm not limiting you to oldies. I'm sorry mods, I just want to make myself clear.

[Rokumonsen]

You guys think Stagiaire is gonna be rushed as fuck?

[GDB]

If this season is 12 episodes, many times yes. If it's 13 episodes, it should be fine.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Rokumonsen

You guys think Stagiaire is gonna be rushed as fuck?

Yeah, I have the same question. I heard Stagiaire is fan-favorite arc. And Erina will participate? Would be a pity if it's rushed.