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View Poll Results: Macross Delta - Episode 24 Rating
Perfect 10 2 10.53%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 2 10.53%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 2 10.53%
7 out of 10 : Good 7 36.84%
6 out of 10 : Average 5 26.32%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 5.26%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 19. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2016-09-13, 22:19   Link #101
Kazu-kun
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Tempester is right the show doesn't need more episodes when it wasted almost the whole second half of the show doing nothing. They should have used their time better.

Honestly, sometimes anime staff seem to take the most irrational decisions.
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Old 2016-09-13, 23:18   Link #102
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With three episodes per volume, 7k doesn't even break even.

9,059 currently.
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Old 2016-09-13, 23:25   Link #103
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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I wouldn't blame the guy so much. Almost every magazine article or interview on the show indicates most of his ideas were rejected or re-worked into something completely different. He's mostly in the project for his name, and to do storyboards for fight or concert scenes.
Although I won’t blame Kawamori that much for Delta, I won’t give him that much credit for his storytelling skill either considering his works in recent years. Remember, he's the one who wrote the ultra-messy Nobunaga the Fool in 2014 when he had the free reign. So, yeah .

As for Delta itself…so far, this gotta be amongst my least-favorite Macross series in the franchise, all things considered. IMO the writing is just all over the place. I honestly prefer SDF's lackluster last-third than Delta's. I doubt the last 2 episodes will change my opinion that much, but I’m still open for some nice surprises.

Btw, is the success of a Macross series really mainly depends on BD/DVD and music single/album sales?
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Old 2016-09-13, 23:31   Link #104
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9,059 currently.
And this week it dropped out of the ranking, so it won't get much better.

It's not as bad as I thought, but sales are bound to drop considerably from here on.
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Old 2016-09-14, 01:24   Link #105
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I believe you're on soundtracks; I'm talking about vocal albums. Walküre Attack! hit gold on its first week; and I don't remember if Frontier ever even came close; and Frontier had three vocal albums. There's really no contest of which one is bigger on music sales.

Doesn't mean Frontier isn't good on vocal tracks (because I love a number of its songs).
Do you have any numbers on this? Because I distinctly remember Frontier music soundtracks also selling really well.

*edit* BTW, am I the only one who was thinking of the "Run away! Run away!" scene from Monthy Python and the Holy Grail when Chaos did their retreat from Windermere?
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Old 2016-09-14, 02:19   Link #106
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One thing I think most of us can agree on is that the 2nd cour's pacing is too slow, and it's seriously hurt some of the characters.
I don't think it's the pacing and more like Tempester said. They bloated the story with a lot of subplots that were never resolved after they introduced them. They really should have trimmed some story arcs if they couldn't handle them (and stop introducing characters). They should have made two shows because it often feels that you're watching this and when they 'intercept' it feels weird.

And yeah, they seem to want to resolve everything in the finale which is a terrible choice. Oh and the 'war' was completely dropped, wasn't it? Nobody even spoke about it during the trial (the war in the cluster yes, but nothing beyond the same old ).

I'm still waiting for Mirage's ugly pet as final villain reveal. Freyja's phone can be the sidekick minion.
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Old 2016-09-14, 03:13   Link #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HirouKeimou View Post
I believe you're on soundtracks; I'm talking about vocal albums. Walküre Attack! hit gold on its first week; and I don't remember if Frontier ever even came close; and Frontier had three vocal albums. There's really no contest of which one is bigger on music sales.

Doesn't mean Frontier isn't good on vocal tracks (because I love a number of its songs).
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Do you have any numbers on this? Because I distinctly remember Frontier music soundtracks also selling really well.
Spoiler for offtopic:
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Old 2016-09-14, 06:22   Link #108
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I don't like hating on a kid, but still... Heinz has real power here, and at some level he must be aware of that (even Keith and Roid kneel before him).
That's rather like saying a circus tiger has to be aware it could just eat its tamer instead of jumping though fiery hoops. It's true, but it seriously underestimates the mental hurdle of making such a decision.


Quote:
Given how short Windermerean lifespans are, and given the fact that his own father is dead, Heinz must have at least some understanding of death and of how war causes death. And Hayate, Freyja, and Mirage all said enough that it should have given Heinz serious pause and reflection.

Heinz probably isn't bloodthirsty, per se. He's probably choosing to wash his hands of things as much as possible, and defer to adults. But in the process, he is at least enabling terrible wrongdoing.
Imagine that. A child who doesn't think he knows better than adults. Who trusts their judgment above his own.

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I'm fine with Heinz meeting with a merciful fate, but he hasn't been a good King, in my view.
Of course he's been a terrible king. He's a child. If it was a historical Earth kingdom, his job would be to let the regent make all the decisions. (Or maybe the succession wouldn't pass to him at all.) Under no circumstances would he be expected to wield actual power.

If you want to hate Windermere monarch, hate Gramia. What was his excuse for his poor judgment and bad choices in advisors (whom his son inherited)? Gramia was a horrible king and father. Heinz merely failed to be some kind of impossible genius.

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Old 2016-09-14, 10:07   Link #109
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...am I the only one who thought the first cour had all the complexity of a Michael Bay movie? I mean it was definitely fun but it was still really shallow to me.

I dunno why but I was so annoyed about Makina being shot. Too much cheap drama involving underdeveloped characters, I guess.
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Old 2016-09-14, 10:52   Link #110
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...am I the only one who thought the first cour had all the complexity of a Michael Bay movie? I mean it was definitely fun but it was still really shallow to me.

I dunno why but I was so annoyed about Makina being shot. Too much cheap drama involving underdeveloped characters, I guess.
I'm with you on both.
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Old 2016-09-14, 10:56   Link #111
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...am I the only one who thought the first cour had all the complexity of a Michael Bay movie? I mean it was definitely fun but it was still really shallow to me.
Macross has never been particularly deep. I don't think it has ever tried to be deep either.

Michal Bay is a good comparison, and I personally don't see it as a criticism. I think Macross works best when it's just silly fun stuff.

If there's something wrong with the show's second half, it's that it couldn't keep up with that rush of fun from the first half. It became dull, stale.
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Old 2016-09-14, 11:06   Link #112
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Spoiler for offtopic:
Thanks, Natsu. The claim that Deltas music sells better than Frontiers ever did seemed totally preposterous to me, but I didn't have the numbers.

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Macross has never been particularly deep. I don't think it has ever tried to be deep either.

Michal Bay is a good comparison, and I personally don't see it as a criticism. I think Macross works best when it's just silly fun stuff.

If there's something wrong with the show's second half, it's that it couldn't keep up with that rush of fun from the first half. It became dull, stale.
Eh, I thought Frontier had quite a lot of complexity to its plot. Not to the point where it's near a psychodrama, but plot developments weren't totally telegraphed, characters had complexity to themselves and the plot had its twists and turns.
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Old 2016-09-14, 11:21   Link #113
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Eh, I thought Frontier had quite a lot of complexity to its plot. Not to the point where it's near a psychodrama, but plot developments weren't totally telegraphed, characters had complexity to themselves and the plot had its twists and turns.
To each their own, I guess. I don't think Frontier is particularly more complex than Delta. It was more character driven and melodramatic at times, but that's about it.
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Old 2016-09-14, 11:25   Link #114
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I'm still waiting for Mirage's ugly pet as final villain reveal. Freyja's phone can be the sidekick minion.
You know, I actually thought their interaction foreshadowed a MiraFrey ending.

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Imagine that. A child who doesn't think he knows better than adults. Who trusts their judgment above his own.
It doesn't bother you that he has no morals? That the deaths of people around him have absolutely no affect on him? That he has questioned absolutely nothing of the adults' decisions? Made no effort to use his authority as a means of getting answers? Ignorance may not be a crime, but conduct arising from ignorance is
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Old 2016-09-14, 11:44   Link #115
stray
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Macross has never been particularly deep. I don't think it has ever tried to be deep either.

Michal Bay is a good comparison, and I personally don't see it as a criticism. I think Macross works best when it's just silly fun stuff.
Hmmm. To a point I can't disagree but to keep going with summer movie analogies if Macross is Fast and Furious Delta is Tokyo Drift. It had the basics (cars) but it also had a bunch of shitty characters almost no one liked and kind of a stupid plot IIRC.

I don't want to dwell on previous entries in the franchise but Delta has just felt hollow to me in comparison. I dunno.
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Old 2016-09-14, 12:07   Link #116
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if Macross is Fast and Furious Delta is Tokyo Drift. It had the basics (cars) but it also had a bunch of shitty characters almost no one liked and kind of a stupid plot IIRC.
Tokyo Drift had its high points, honestly; and it's a good comparison because Delta has its high points, too.

I don't know about bad characters though, because like I've said prior, characters like Roid, Keith, Hayate and Freyja all received good development within their universe; other characters (like Mirage and Chuck) did not. Those are only examples, of course, I'm positive other characters developed.

However, the comparison is flipped: while Delta has good characters with potential, it's lacking the basics for a Macross because of its overachieving plot which has buried everything which is Macross into a big hole.

Of course, like Tokyo Drift, this could be a test; like they're seeing what not to do for future Macross'. After all, I don't think Tokyo Drift could hold a candle to the amount of subplots Delta has...
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Old 2016-09-14, 12:24   Link #117
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You know, I actually thought their interaction foreshadowed a MiraFrey ending.



It doesn't bother you that he has no morals? That the deaths of people around him have absolutely no affect on him? That he has questioned absolutely nothing of the adults' decisions? Made no effort to use his authority as a means of getting answers? Ignorance may not be a crime, but conduct arising from ignorance is
What deaths around him? Up until this episode (and last), nobody died in Windermere. He has had no contact with deaths (except his father's which made him do as Roid said because it was "my father's will"), you're demanding him to have abstract thinking, which is an ignorant and unreasonable demand because he's not capable for it at that age. Again, you're not seeing he's a child and not a little adult who happens to look like a child. Those complicated thought processes aren't really something a kid are capable of doing.

Children start to developing "morals" (what you understand as morals, anyway) around 12 years old when they start to be less self-focused (and comes with abstract thinking developing to boot). There's a reason why armies started indoctrinating child soldiers on Heinz's age group. Because they are malleable and would do as trusted adults say. At that age, the sense of morality they have is about the rules of the immediate environment. So yes, only Windermere laws and rules and justice and fairness which is what he's displaying and following. According to Piaget and other researchers, children between the ages of 5-6 to 10-12 see the world through what's called a "Heteronomous Morality". Meaning that children think that authority figures (parents, teachers, guardians: aka Roid, Gramia, Keith) have rules that they (children) must follow absolutely. Rules are thought of as real, unchangeable guidelines rather than evolving, negotiable, or situational ones, by the way. Only when they grow older and develop more abstract thinking, children become capable of forming more flexible rules and applying them selectively for the sake of shared objectives and a desire to co-operate.

Heinz is 9-10 years old. He has a heteronomous morality. It's kind of child psychology 101. You're asking him to rebel and stuff which is unrealistic for his age (it would be expected in a few more years). Secondly, in the first half of the show Heinz had doubts and hesitated about what he should do but Keith, Gramia and later Roid pretty much gave him a speech about WINDERMERE JUSTICE, DO THIS (and die for it), so he's pretty much doing exactly as they told him to do (including the dying part to Keith's horror ). They laid down the rules. It's Freyja's word against... uh his dead dad's and beloved brother's? I mean I love Freyja, but while she planted the idea and Heinz did question about songs and music (which is good), he's not going to suddenly go against his father's will unless he learns: 1) Roid lied about being his father's will; 2) Keith finally speaks his goddamn mind and voices he's against this (which we know he is, but he doesn't speak up). He needs someone of his circle actually being against this and that they informed it (Neither Cassim and Herman actually told him their suspicion and dislike for the turns of events).

Frankly speaking I'm impressed that, despite the bad writing is rampant in the second half, they are portraying a child in power as... an actual child in power. They aren't trying to moralize or make him more mature and ready to deal with this impossible situation correctly because that's unrealistic. It's not an adult in a little boy package as you all seem expecting, it's a child. It's not really a matter of temper and personality, it's about how your brain develops at that stage.

Saying all this it doesn't mean that Windermere leadership is ah-Okay, but Heinz is not responsible for it. He's a victim of child abuse which I doubt will ever get acknowledged.
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Old 2016-09-14, 13:01   Link #118
stray
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I don't know about bad characters though, because like I've said prior, characters like Roid, Keith, Hayate and Freyja all received good development within their universe; other characters (like Mirage and Chuck) did not. Those are only examples, of course, I'm positive other characters developed.

However, the comparison is flipped: while Delta has good characters with potential, it's lacking the basics for a Macross because of its overachieving plot which has buried everything which is Macross into a big hole.
Hmm. See, I really kind of think a lot of plot threads were just thrown out there to imply depth where there really wasn't any.

I know you're a fan of the pairing but I'm sort of resentful for how much Hayate and Freyja were IMO shoved in our face when they could have been doing pretty much anything with the enormous cast they assembled. Everything about Delta is sort of mismatched; its just bizarre in the grand scheme.

Anyway, if people are able to appreciate it on the level of summer movie popcorn fun I guess I can respect that but I'm definitely not one of those people.
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Old 2016-09-14, 13:14   Link #119
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I dodged last episode cus it was so bad that I hid at the Tak boards for a while...

But man...Episode 24 is god awful, and it's frankly not so much because of the Windermereans (which is a part of it...but as I've mentioned in the other board I just...can't take their stupid system seriously anymore. They literally made up a halfassed version of their preexisting judicial system for the main trio because they're not technically PoW) but just straight up how pointless these scenes continue to be. We literally learned nothing new about anyone at the trial and...I'm sorry, I continue to have severe problems with how the main trio are acting.

I understand that the Windermeres are shit heads, but they're also incredibly boxed in on their planet's understanding of things. For a trio claiming there's more outside of the planet it continues to bother me how bad they are at communicating that thought outside of being spectacularly rude. I get they are kids, but that only makes the issue more annoying because they keep using talking points that talk a far bigger game. It's as convenient as the Bumpkin Defense. I also continue to struggle with the fact that Freyja never seems to know how to act appropriately with her own people, it's almost like their cultures aren't even the same.

We also hear nothing about Wright. Sigh.

Also...as Hayate is walking off the cliff he just believes there's a chance he won't die??? He then tells Mirage to protect Freyja but it's like...how??? HOW?????????? NONE OF THIS MAKES ANY SENSE. And really? Hayate doesn't want to tarnish Freyja's song with blood? Speak to the eye you took from Keith. This is such whitewashing bullshit that i just don't even. Just because you failed to kill Keith doesn't mean you weren't trying. He shot ALL THE WAY ALONG his machine to the cockpit after Keith quick drawed his blaster. Fucking hell.

AND YOU KNOW WHAT. YOU DID THAT UNDER HEAVY INFLUENCE OF FREYJA'S SONG, SO THIS IS LITERAL AND UTTER HORSE BLOODY SHIT. Let's also completely forget the VAR syndrome situation you were just in.

God I hate Hayate. Everything you say is so beyond the realms of stupidity.

The talk about Herman rivalry is still bothering me too. Just because a guy wants a younger pilot to fly well doesn't make him their rival...Herman had already been established as the sort who likes to teach...it's basically one of the few consistent things that still remain.

On the other hand...everything that doesn't involve the main characters has still been stellar. It's just sad that we have to wade through so much crap to reach it. Mikumo's arc, CHAOS and the lot is still pretty interesting, and her song is incredibly pretty, though Makina getting shot remains trite. I feel it's made worse by the subs of the song they're singing which is so in your face about the narrative that it may as well be subpar disney.
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Old 2016-09-14, 13:41   Link #120
SleepingTerror
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What deaths around him? Up until this episode (and last), nobody died in Windermere. He has had no contact with deaths (except his father's which made him do as Roid said because it was "my father's will"), you're demanding him to have abstract thinking, which is an ignorant and unreasonable demand because he's not capable for it at that age. Again, you're not seeing he's a child and not a little adult who happens to look like a child. Those complicated thought processes aren't really something a kid are capable of doing.
So you're telling me he didn't actually know he was sentencing Hayate, Mirage, and Freyja to death. They did nothing to him. Freyja even connected with him via singing. The fact he was not conflicted at all that he would be ending the lives of people who he barely knew tells me a lot about him as a person.
Prior to this episode, I would have agreed with you. I was even on the Windermere's side. It was until this episode that I thought Windermere as a whole was the victim. But Freyja opened my eyes. She doesn't want war. I don't believe the the rest of the civilians want to go through this. Their lives are short enough.
When I blame Heinz, I'm not ignoring everyone else's crimes. No doubt it's because of them he ended up this way. But you don't automatically excuse someone's crimes and wrongdoings because of bad experiences.
Heinz is no typical 9 year old. And I really doubt child psychology could work here due to the unique nature of Windermere lifespan, not to mention all studies are but theories so far. (also googled it and it's definitely not as late as 12)
My issue is that Heinz is not completely blameless. If you're explaining why he does what does, I get it, but that doesn't free him from all responsibility.
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