To Aru Majutsu no Index LN - New Testament Volume 22 Discussion / Poll

[KiharaRonin]

Originally Posted by Keila

I may have a faulty memory here, but did he not 'die' (repeatedly) when Othinus was messing with him? I know he suffered greatly, horribly, at least 10,031 times (which, is how many Misaka clones died isn't it?). I mean, he says " I’ve been analyzing you all this time. While you killed me again and again" so I can only assume he actually dies.



I wonder if we're going to be stuck with a mini Coronzon as a counter-part to Othinus, sitting on Touma's shoulder.

Yes and no, Othinus did "kill" him, but he was brought back before fully "dying".

Originally Posted by dniv

Pretty sure this is the first time Touma died completely and was removed from existence along with IB in this series. Like, when Touma dies, IB is supposed to switch its partner to someone else. So this is new. Very new. I'm curious to see where he's going with this lol.

Obviously, it's temporary, but I'm enjoying it nonetheless. This was really awesome and I can't wait for the rest of it.

My real question is the following: Is this the last volume of NT? The summary sorta made it sound like it was. Is this the end of the series? The end of NT? It would make sense for it to be the end of NT since it IS volume 22. But, obviously, I would hope for more afterward.

The best part of this though isn't about him dying--it's the fact that Misaka and Misaki were there to see it. That's new. Best girl will be decided based on their reactions.

Agreed. Can't wait. This is almost definitely the last NT volume. However, there's still some questions to be answered and some setup for future stories is definitely being laid. Not to mention, if the entire series were to end with next volume, an announcement would've been made by now and there wouldn't be so many plans for the franchise's future cause the main series ending might hurt the spin offs. I too can't wait to see more.

Can't wait to see what Misaka and Misaki do, not just in reaction to Touma's situation, that alone would be interesting enough, but also what they'll do to help heal Aleister.

[DragonXX]

Originally Posted by KiharaRonin

Yes and no, Othinus did "kill" him, but he was brought back before fully "dying".


Agreed. Can't wait. This is almost definitely the last NT volume. However, there's still some questions to be answered and some setup for future stories is definitely being laid. Not to mention, if the entire series were to end with next volume, an announcement would've been made by now and there wouldn't be so many plans for the franchise's future cause the main series ending might hurt the spin offs. I too can't wait to see more.

Can't wait to see what Misaka and Misaki do, not just in reaction to Touma's situation, that alone would be interesting enough, but also what they'll do to help heal Aleister.

Touma being taken out at the beginning of the story really didn't surprise me but the Epilogue being call Or this is where the story of the heavily bloodied man that marched on a never ending path, whose life comes to a close. sound really ominous, of what going to happen at the end of this volume.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by DragonXX

Touma being taken out at the beginning of the story really didn't surprise me but the Epilogue being call Or this is where the story of the heavily bloodied man that marched on a never ending path, whose life comes to a close. sound really ominous, of what going to happen at the end of this volume.

Imo, while that sounds like it’s talking about Touma, it could be referring to aleister who stands back up after failing every time.

[LG-MAX 2.o]

An incredibly exciting development, but after what happened to Othinus and Aleister, you remember the great possibility of Coronzon being humanized during the volume and in the end turning into a new girl who needs to be saved by Touma and blah, blah, blah.

And this erases the excitement. Let's hope Kamachi breaks the vicious circle.

[Chosen_Hero]

Originally Posted by DragonXX

Touma being taken out at the beginning of the story really didn't surprise me but the Epilogue being call Or this is where the story of the heavily bloodied man that marched on a never ending path, whose life comes to a close. sound really ominous, of what going to happen at the end of this volume.

That's definitely Alister, if it was about Touma it would say boy, not man.

[Aling11]

Dang, I haven't been up to date with the series in a really long time, which girl does it seem like Touma has the most romantic progression with at this point? And is Imagine breaker still his only ability?

[Chosen_Hero]

Originally Posted by Aling11

Dang, I haven't been up to date with the series in a really long time, which girl does it seem like Touma has the most romantic progression with at this point? And is Imagine breaker still his only ability?

Well, most NT so far has been about mainly developing both Touma and Misaka, their character arcs so far have been great. The only other characters anywhere close to Misaka are Misaki and Itsuwa, but Itsuwa has not been seen for more than half of NT (If I remember correctly the last time and probably only time was during the Thor volume) and Misaki seems to have bad luck when it comes to Touma (just last volume she was practically sitting naked in from of Touma and he didn't even give her the time of day outside of thinking of her as a pervert).

But overall get ready for people telling you that romance is not the focus of the story and that it doesn't matter.

[Nazotoria maid x]

and after this it will be "to aru majutsu no index revelation"^_^

[KiharaRonin]

Originally Posted by Aling11

Dang, I haven't been up to date with the series in a really long time, which girl does it seem like Touma has the most romantic progression with at this point? And is Imagine breaker still his only ability?

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

Well, most NT so far has been about mainly developing both Touma and Misaka, their character arcs so far have been great. The only other characters anywhere close to Misaka are Misaki and Itsuwa, but Itsuwa has not been seen for more than half of NT (If I remember correctly the last time and probably only time was during the Thor volume) and Misaki seems to have bad luck when it comes to Touma (just last volume she was practically sitting naked in from of Touma and he didn't even give her the time of day outside of thinking of her as a pervert).

But overall get ready for people telling you that romance is not the focus of the story and that it doesn't matter.

Itsuwa last appeared at the beginning of NT21, not the Thor volume. Also, Kanzaki is on this same level and Kumokawa apparently once was, though we don't know exactly how. However, Touma isn't too good with noticing romantic feelings and is rather dense so its hard to judge his relationships romantically without things feeling one sided (girls crush on him but he doesn't notice though deeply cares for them in a friendly way). We do know he loves dorm managers and thus crushed on Orsola due to likening her to one.

Also, while Imagine Breaker is his main ability, when its cut off, either a Dragon (or eight of them) or an unknown invisible force will escape the stomp of his arm, both being extremely powerful and able to negate powers with less restrictions than his right hand. We've learned some things about his power but there is still much to learn.

[Wandering Soul]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

But overall get ready for people telling you that romance is not the focus of the story and that it doesn't matter.

They aren't really wrong. Romance may matter to a couple of characters and their character arcs, but it has never been the focus of the story.

[Kuroageha]

Originally Posted by Aling11

Dang, I haven't been up to date with the series in a really long time, which girl does it seem like Touma has the most romantic progression with at this point? And is Imagine breaker still his only ability?

You are asking about NT Touma and the answer is: nobody.

Second, so far besides IB the author has been playing hide and seek throwing partial and misleading hints through the course of NT(the good old unreliable narrator). This volume might change that though.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by Wandering Soul

They aren't really wrong. Romance may matter to a couple of characters and their character arcs, but it has never been the focus of the story.

This is true, but the misaka/misaki romance parts are amazing.

The Touma Misaki romance is goooooold

[Keila]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

Well, most NT so far has been about mainly developing both Touma and Misaka, their character arcs so far have been great. The only other characters anywhere close to Misaka are Misaki and Itsuwa, but Itsuwa has not been seen for more than half of NT (If I remember correctly the last time and probably only time was during the Thor volume) and Misaki seems to have bad luck when it comes to Touma (just last volume she was practically sitting naked in from of Touma and he didn't even give her the time of day outside of thinking of her as a pervert).

But overall get ready for people telling you that romance is not the focus of the story and that it doesn't matter.

To be fair (about Misaki), he can't re-call her directly, but he can recall knowledge about her (like scent, stuff her powers can do, etc). She can still seep into his awareness subconsciously. At the very least (at some point in the future) he should be able to recall that Misaka came to his aid and was accompanied by a perverted friend, sure, he might not be able to recall said friend was Misaki but it's not like she couldn't make any advancements at all.

[Tenzen12]

I think If Touma ends with anyone it will be Mikoto. He might not have any obvious romantic feelings, but (beside Othinus who demoted to mascot) she is female he trust and think about most.

Being Misaki is suffering though, she probably doesn't have even half of chance she deserve... Unless Touma's memory get completely fixed that is.

[Aling11]

Is there any spin off anime or anything that shows Misaki's past with Touma? She's my favorite girl ):

[OH&S]

Originally Posted by Aling11

Is there any spin off anime or anything that shows Misaki's past with Touma? She's my favorite girl ):

New Testament Volume 11 for her past with Touma.
Railgun Spinoff: Astral Buddy for more Misaki.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by Aling11

Is there any spin off anime or anything that shows Misaki's past with Touma? She's my favorite girl ):

NT 11 is basically her backstory. And it's pretty great. Also, refer to the Daihasesai arc in the Railgun Manga and the Astral Buddy spinoff manga for more Misaki.

Also, goddamn, the hype for this is pretty high... I hope Js06 manages to start to translate it within a week after it comes out...

[Chosen_Hero]

Originally Posted by Keila

To be fair (about Misaki), he can't re-call her directly, but he can recall knowledge about her (like scent, stuff her powers can do, etc). She can still seep into his awareness subconsciously. At the very least (at some point in the future) he should be able to recall that Misaka came to his aid and was accompanied by a perverted friend, sure, he might not be able to recall said friend was Misaki but it's not like she couldn't make any advancements at all.

Actually, it has already been stated by Misaki herself that Touma will forget everything about her, even that she took part of an event.

Toumas' long term memory has been affected by two different injuries to his brain, the first was caused by Misaki who (knowing the risks) ended up using her abilities on him and crushed and crippled the part of his brain that stores memories. Then the second time when hit was hit by Dragons Breath, all of his memories where erased from his brain (heck, from existence). For all intents and purposes those memories should not be able to return... but if I have learned anything from anime, manga, LN is that if they can make death trivial in their stories, then I am sure that Kamachi.exe can come up with some bullshit reasoning for their return (mostly magical since he would have to disregard a lot of the realism or a lot of the actual mechanics he brings to the science side to pull this off, also, Imagine Breaker should make it impossible for anything to work on him like with Misaki).

Now, you may ask yourself how is Touma still after that able to recollect general information and to feel familiar with something he should have forgotten. Well, the answer is that there are different kinds of memory and not all of them

Declarative memory (“knowing what”) is memory of facts and events, and refers to those memories that can be consciously recalled (or "declared"). It is sometimes called explicit memory, since it consists of information that is explicitly stored and retrieved, although it is more properly a subset of explicit memory. Declarative memory can be further sub-divided into episodic memory and semantic memory.

Procedural memory (“knowing how”) is the unconscious memory of skills and how to do things, particularly the use of objects or movements of the body, such as tying a shoelace, playing a guitar or riding a bike. These memories are typically acquired through repetition and practice, and are composed of automatic sensorimotor behaviours that are so deeply embedded that we are no longer aware of them. Once learned, these "body memories" allow us to carry out ordinary motor actions more or less automatically. Procedural memory is sometimes referred to as implicit memory, because previous experiences aid in the performance of a task without explicit and conscious awareness of these previous experiences, although it is more properly a subset of implicit memory.

http://www.human-memory.net/types_declarative.html

When he remembers a smell, or gets a feeling that he is familiar with something/one it is because it has become a sort of reflex that is ingrained in his body.

Both episodic memory and semantic memory require a similar encoding process. However, semantic memory mainly activates the frontal and temporal cortexes, whereas episodic memory activity is concentrated in the hippocampus, at least initially. Once processed in the hippocampus, episodic memories are then consolidated and stored in the neocortex. The memories of the different elements of a particular event are distributed in the various visual, olfactory and auditory areas of the brain, but they are all connected together by the hippocampus to form an episode, rather than remaining a collection of separate memories.

For example, memories of people’s faces, the taste of the wine, the music that was playing, etc, might all be part of the memory of a particular dinner with friends. By repeatedly reactivating or “playing back” this particular activity pattern in the various regions of the cortex, they become so strongly linked with one another that they no longer need the hippocampus to act as their link, and the memory of the music that was playing that night, for example, can act as an index entry, and may be enough to bring back the entire scene of the dinner party.

http://www.human-memory.net/types_episodic.html

I am sure someone more knowledgeable on the topic could clarify any mistakes in my logic far better than I ever could. If anyone on the thread can then please do so. But from my point of view, Toumas' memories should be gone for good.

[Keila]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

<wall of text>

It should (eventually, via accumulation) become equivalent to a perpetual state of de ja vu (re: Misaki/Touma interactions).

I mean, with real world science they infer a whole bunch of stuff that they can't see or possibly know due to gravitational waves and what not (and yes, I'm being deliberately vague here).

○ He can recognise the Tokiwadai uniform (even if that's an extension of his knowledge of Misaka)
○ He should be able to remember his encounter with a perverted girl who was Misaka's friend (so at the very least Misaka has at least one perverted friend, or another perverted friend... why does it seem like all of Misaka's friends are perverts?).
○ He knows about "Mental Out" as being an esper who exists (he just doesn't realise that MO and Misaki are one in the same)
○ He should at least remember a girl kissed his forehead (even if he doesn't remember who the girl is).
○ Frogface said: "“This isn’t really damage to his memories. It’s more like damage to the pathways that call in the memories. Even if the boy can talk about you, he won’t be able to remember you. If you think of the brain as storing people’s faces and names, you could say your section alone was physically crushed. I don’t think there is anything you can do even with your powers.”"


Pretty much anything where <xyz = Misaki> should fail to correlate within his mind because the 'concept' of Misaki can't be reference, not that it doesn't exist (it's just corrupted/irretrievable data). It's akin to Dark Matter (esper power), in the fact that it is matter that shouldn't exist (and yet we know it does). If Dark Matter is matter that doesn't exist and doesn't comply with the laws of the world (and yet it does) it wouldn't be much of a stretch to believe that the concept of 'Misaki' will eventually exist once again.

[Chosen_Hero]

Originally Posted by Keila

It should (eventually, via accumulation) become equivalent to a perpetual state of de ja vu (re: Misaki/Touma interactions).

I mean, with real world science they infer a whole bunch of stuff that they can't see or possibly know due to gravitational waves and what not (and yes, I'm being deliberately vague here).

○ He can recognise the Tokiwadai uniform (even if that's an extension of his knowledge of Misaka)
○ He should be able to remember his encounter with a perverted girl who was Misaka's friend (so at the very least Misaka has at least one perverted friend, or another perverted friend... why does it seem like all of Misaka's friends are perverts?).
○ He knows about "Mental Out" as being an esper who exists (he just doesn't realise that MO and Misaki are one in the same)
○ He should at least remember a girl kissed his forehead (even if he doesn't remember who the girl is).
○ Frogface said: "“This isn’t really damage to his memories. It’s more like damage to the pathways that call in the memories. Even if the boy can talk about you, he won’t be able to remember you. If you think of the brain as storing people’s faces and names, you could say your section alone was physically crushed. I don’t think there is anything you can do even with your powers.”"


Pretty much anything where <xyz = Misaki> should fail to correlate within his mind because the 'concept' of Misaki can't be reference, not that it doesn't exist (it's just corrupted/irretrievable data). It's akin to Dark Matter (esper power), in the fact that it is matter that shouldn't exist (and yet we know it does). If Dark Matter is matter that doesn't exist and doesn't comply with the laws of the world (and yet it does) it wouldn't be much of a stretch to believe that the concept of 'Misaki' will eventually exist once again.

Spoiler for Too damn long:

Interesting, I agree that it should be possible for his memories to return through constant contact, but that is IF Touma had his memories and brain messed with under normal circumstances, which he did not (he has the nuke version of amnesia).

As I mentioned, the part of his brain that stores memories got crushed to the point of being considered a lobotomy and that later his memories were wiped using the same method that was used on Index for years (heck, it was supposed to be Index who had that happen to her) and as we know her memories are gone forever and if there was a way to get them back that would have been the very first thing Styil and Kanzaki would have done (heck, I am sure they tried countless of ways to get them back), even Heaven Canceller said there was nothing he could do and he's the guy that is, as of the latest arc, trying to create a body for a baby out of radio parts and assorted kitchen items with the help of a dog (... I can't believe I just typed that string of words).

For his memories to return due to deja vu they would have to be there somewhere, which due to Dragons Breath they are not, especially less so on the part of his brain that was already destroyed. Again, as I mentioned, those deja vu like feelings are more like reflexes since it is stored in his body, NOT on his brain/hippocampus.

If he had not gotten the mind wipe there would definitely be a chance (a very, very, very small one) that he could get those memories back, but again, how is he going to remember something that isn't there anymore? Also, remember that Kamachi already established that Touma forgets almost instantly about Misaki (in her own volume he forgets about her nearly instantly while speaking to her) and here we arrive at a new problem. Even if he still had those memories somewhere in his brain it doesn't matter how many deja vu he gets, if the feeling doesn't stay around long enough to make some kind of imprint, then how are those memories supposed to resurface without that link?

Answers to the parts in bold:

1. That's the thing, he doesn't, at all. He forgets literally everything concerning Misaki. If he did remember a pervert girl who is friend with Misaka then he would have brought it up anytime he interacted with Misaka and Misaki ever since he went to Tokiwadai during the heat wave... No better yet, since the volume where he sneaks/is smuggled into Tokiwadai up to the current volume where they have had multiple points of contact in various ways, but mostly face to face (heck, for this we can go as far back as NT 11) and yet he never brings it up at all, he only reacts to her at the moment and then just as quickly it is forgotten.

2. Just because he knows someone with the ability Mental Out exists doesn't mean it will trigger a response, for that he would need a far stronger stimuli. Heck, did he even know she was a level 5? Was she even a level 5 at the time she knew Touma?

3. As a reflex yes he should, but again, he needs the memories to exist in the first place and if they were to exist he would need that deja vu to stick around long enough to imprint itself and make a link which the injury caused by Misaki prevents.

4. Yes, yes he did, but that was before Toumas' brain and memories got nuked to oblivion by Dragons Breath. Those words only apply to pre memory wipe Touma who could have had some chance of remembering something due to those memories still being there somewhere, not for post wipe Touma.

Pre memory wipe Touma had memories to possibly at some point get back.

Post memory wipe Touma doesn't have any memories to get back.

Now with that said, considering that in the current volume Touma was "completely destroyed" there are two things that could end up happening and a whole mess of consequences to will follow, I will list a few:

1. Pre memory wipe Touma returns with his body and his brain fixed due to his new body and somehow with his old memories intact and Imagine Breaker will have disappeared from his hand.

2. Post memory Touma returns as he currently is, except without IB.

3. Both pre memory wipe Touma and post memory wipe Touma return, only one of them can have IB.

4. Both return but neither has IB.

5. Both return but one has IB and the other has control over the IT or the dragons.

6. Both return, one has IB while the other one has IT and the dragons are released onto the world.

7. Both return, one has IB while the other has the dragons and IT is unleashed upon the world.

8. He is dead for good.

These are the ones that I could come up with on the spot.

If there is ANY point in the series where Kamachi can pull off some bullshit excuse/reason for Touma getting his memories back or at least some of them it will be in this or next volume with his "reincarnation".