(CR) Sousou no Frieren (Frieren: Beyond Journey's End)

[GDB]

There's also the distinct possibility that she can't switch freely between abilities she's copied. We don't know if she needs to continue "empathizing" with the person she copied to use their ability or if it's one and done.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Liddo-kun

she did not need to show more stuff up her sleeve, because she can already kill Wirbel during their encounter. She just decided not to. Land noticed she had the opportunity to kill.

I'm pretty sure Land was just referring to when Wirbel let her go after Fern stopped him.

She had the opportunity to attack him then, but chose to listen to Fern.
Land saw that as uncharacteristic of her because she normally wouldn't think twice about killing.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Ubel is simply the kind of genius who does impossible stuff simply because she doesn't know it's impossible, she doesn't have any deeper understanding of magic compared to anyone else. In terms of visualisation, Ubel simply sees the world differently than most people.

That said, the incident with Burg and Sense does highlight a potential flaw in modern magic, the focus on enchanting/manipulating physical matter.

It's perfectly understandable why it developed this way, it's easier to visualise something tangible, which makes it easier to standerdize and teach. And when you get really good at it like Sense, the versatility is incredible.

I don't think that's it. The standard offensive magic is Zoltraak, and the standard defensive magic is a mana shield - that's what's been standardized and taught to every mage. It's not about what's easy to teach. It's about what defeats the current meta.

A demon invented Zoltraak, a magic that punched through every defense of its time to insta-kill its victims. Humans stole that and came up with the standard defensive magic. Now they're looking for ways to most efficiently beat standard defensive magic, and that means attacks with mass. I guess next they'll look for the best defense against material attacks. And so on.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Endscape

The same main character whose deceiving ways are said to be so off the beaten path that no one figured out what she's been doing for a 1000 years.

And we're talking about a character who was established in this very episode to be insane.

One other thing. Before she revealed why she'd be able to beat Sense's clone, she made sure to ask Denken if it was necessary to clear the dungeon. Keep in mind she knew it would be completely trivial for her to beat the clone. Why do you think she did that?

[TURI123456]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Why would we assume something so obviously wrong? Her cutting spell only has niche utilization and a range of only 5 meters. And it can't even cut the basic defensive barrier that most mages use to defense themselves. Solganiel is more dangerous but she's not the only one who uses it. Wirbel does it too, and this spell also has its own share of limitations, like the fact you need to keep the enemy's entire body in sight to make it work.

I said half the mages who passed the second exam are stronger than Ubel.



You don't necessarily want more options. Most mages focus on one or two spells, not because they can't learn more. Everyone can learn more spells, not just Ubel. They focus on one or two because this allows them to be more focused and efficient.

Ubel's ability to pick up spells by empathizing with others is a nice shortcut, but it's nothing groundbreaking. Even if you don't have this ability, you can still learn spells just fine. It will take a little more time but who cares.

I don't know about the part of the half... However, I agree that she is weaker than the stronger Mages who take the exam. Ubel herself said that.
To be fair I'm not too fond of the way the Ubel ability was explained to us or about her way to copy spells. I mean something about this just feels to me like it's not right or not related.

Originally Posted by ryllharu

While the visual spectacle is very nice, Ubel is the high point of this episode and test as a whole. Her part of this segment feels much more in line with the rest of the series as a whole, specifically the types of discussions Frieren has had over the decade of mentoring Fern.

Ubel's flashbacks also reveal quite a bit concerning the obnoxious arrogance and gatekeeping that the Mage Association does with all exams. It also reeks of elitism. If these are the best and brightest mages on the continent, they certainly don't seem to understand it as well as they claim to.

Ubel simply understands magic on a more fundamental level than most of the cast. It's all about visualization first, then the mechanics behind it fulfill it come after (in contrast, Fern was taught the mechanics first in methodical detail). Ubel just ignores the mechanics. The foundation of her magic is an endearing core memory for her. Her understanding of magic is even consistent with her other skill of empathizing with another and then taking their magic specialty. She believes that once she can understand another mage (through her own impenetrable metrics too), she'll inherently know their trademark spell, and then she simply does.

The magic association members are crippling themselves and their examinees with predilections, intentionally or otherwise. The flashback showed that they frequently plan the 2nd test to be nearly impossible to pass. I don't really buy their excuse that, "a First-Class mage should be capable of overcoming these challenges" when the association have populated themselves with extreme specialists and then design tests around those exact areas of expertise and even add qualifiers to swing the tests against the examinees.

The way they set up that previous 2nd round test, Ubel was the probably one who could ever have passed it. Richter would have, or Kanne in the same way she defeated Richter in the previous test...except they'd have been disqualified by the association with the offensive spell limits the association placed "for safety." They wouldn't have been able to use such large spells. The test was expressly designed to fail everyone by limiting their ability to the level that the cloak would always stop the spell, reinforced by the seeded idea that his cloak stops every spell so there wouldn't be any risk to his life.

It's a great moment that Sense utterly fails to comprehend that Ubel could cut anything. Sense lost from the moment that Ubel was even called to her office. Sense then fails to learn anything from the event by justifying it to herself that Ubel is simply crazy and a sociopath.

And yeah, Sense can talk about how she's a pacifist all she wants and how the test should be easy if they all cooperated, but the Association designed this test to fail as many examinees as possible and the proof is Sense herself tagging along. Her thoughts showed more than enough that she was the contingency plan in case they were doing fairly well, and combining her offensive abilities with her skill at hiding being as strong as Fern's means she was meant to ambush mages quite deliberately.

Ummm no. First Sense is pacifist her clone didn't kill anyone with one hit (although from what we saw it probably could), and second in the part of the exam that she was in charge of nobody died not unlike when Genau was in charge of the exam.

About the part with the "Continental Magic Association", the test that Ubel took was for the Second Mage, not the First Mage, and the limits on the people that took the test were for safety not because they try to make it hard on who that take the tested.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Just because she's been honest with Land about what she wants doesn't mean she never lies. She did a pretty good job manipulating him into saving her against her clone.

There's a third test, it makes sense she'd want to keep some secrets or lie about her true abilities since there's a chance they may get pitted against each other next time.

She asked Land if he was real one, offered her bottle and jumped in to fight her clone.

None of that was a lie.

Originally Posted by Kanon

Having more spells gives you more options. They described magic battles as a game of rock paper scissors in this episode. Having all three would be highly beneficial.

I'm not saying Übel could beat them all for sure. I'm saying we just don't know and we can't take her words at face value. It could be she's only as strong as she's been presented, or she could be stronger. Again, we don't know.

I mean, the main character of this show is constantly suppressing her real power level so her enemies underestimate her. Why can't others do something similar?

Doubting Frieren for something that actually happened is not the same as doubting Ubel for something that she didn't do yet.

We know Frieren is holding back because the show has given ample explanation as to why.
Doubting Ubel just because "we don't know" is a completely different line of reasoning.

Originally Posted by Kanon

And we're talking about a character who was established in this very episode to be insane.

One other thing. Before she revealed why she'd be able to beat Sense's clone, she made sure to ask Denken if it was necessary to clear the dungeon. Keep in mind she knew it would be completely trivial for her to beat the clone. Why do you think she did that?

Because she needed a reason to fight. She likes talking and learning about other people's lives and magic, and a clone that can't talk has nothing to offer.

She prodded Wirbel for his feelings, just like how she's trying to get Land to open up about his life.

[magnuskn]

In D&D / Pathfinder terms, Übel seems to be a Sorcerer, while the rest of the mages are Wizards, i.e. her power comes from intuition and innate power, while the other are studied magic users. Which also explains a bit how she learns spells by emphatizing with another person. I don't think she is insane per se, she only approaches magic in a way which the learned mages find unexplainable and a bit repellant.

[Shadow5YA]

Her magic only allows her to cut what she believes she can cut. The fact that she has maimed humans before, and her lack of guilt when she did is pretty telling about her character.

With that said, that doesn't mean she acts without reason. Even she has her own internal motivations to follow.

[relentlessflame]

I do think it's a good point about her being a "sorcerer in a world of wizards," and I'd suspect this could be a contributing factor to her being considered a sort of outcast. Obviously, the lack of remorse she shows for killing others, and the sort of "creepy obsession" factor in her explanation of her cutting skill would lead people to think she's twisted. (I mean, if her name weren't literally "Evil" and she weren't constantly wearing that evil smirk on her face...)

I'm forgetting now if she explained earlier why she's even taking the magic exam in the first place, but I suppose perhaps it just being an interesting chance to observe magicians up close and perhaps challenge them might be enough for her. I'm almost surprised they let her come back after what she did last time, but I suppose it was also their fault for setting up the test like that in the first place.

Although the anime didn't explain this (or I just don't remember?), I assume there will be one more test to fill the last two episodes, as I can't imagine that so many people will have passed the exam (plus, standard Rule of Threes). Of the people who remain, some of them have some rather questionable motivations for wanting to pass, so I assume at least some of them won't make it. I suppose if the first test was teams, and the second test was group, then the last test is likely to be individual somehow. But given the fact that they kind of did the PvP thing vs. clones last time (and picking the ideal matchups), hopefully it's not some sort of PvP or battle royale this time. We'll see...

[magnuskn]

Übel as a substantive (which is how the German names in Frieren are mostly used) doesn't literally translate to "evil", btw, more something like "Malady" or "Illness", at least in common use in German. For "Evil" we would use "Böse", as in "Das Böse".

[GDB]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Although the anime didn't explain this (or I just don't remember?), I assume there will be one more test to fill the last two episodes, as I can't imagine that so many people will have passed the exam (plus, standard Rule of Threes). Of the people who remain, some of them have some rather questionable motivations for wanting to pass, so I assume at least some of them won't make it. I suppose if the first test was teams, and the second test was group, then the last test is likely to be individual somehow. But given the fact that they kind of did the PvP thing vs. clones last time (and picking the ideal matchups), hopefully it's not some sort of PvP or battle royale this time. We'll see...

Forget if the anime stated so, but the preview at the end of the episode at least had a line that said "The third test will now begin."

[Huh...?]

YouTube

https://youtu.be/bWCkSOafQNc

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[Liddo-kun]

Spoiler:

Laufen revenge for tying her to the tree at 1:30.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

She asked Land if he was real one, offered her bottle and jumped in to fight her clone.

None of that was a lie.Because she needed a reason to fight. She likes talking and learning about other people's lives and magic, and a clone that can't talk has nothing to offer.

She prodded Wirbel for his feelings, just like how she's trying to get Land to open up about his life.

She 100% knew Land was a clone. She pretended not to know in order to trick him into helping her. As close to a lie as it gets.

Don't you think there's also a possibility she didn't want to reveal her full power unless necessary? Again, it was completely trivial to defeat Sense's clone for her. No reason she couldn't just kill it and then resume flirting with Land. Instead, she went out of her way to ask if it was necessary for it to be defeated.

[Liddo-kun]

Originally Posted by ryllharu

The way they set up that previous 2nd round test, Ubel was the probably one who could ever have passed it. Richter would have, or Kanne in the same way she defeated Richter in the previous test...except they'd have been disqualified by the association with the offensive spell limits the association placed "for safety." They wouldn't have been able to use such large spells. The test was expressly designed to fail everyone by limiting their ability to the level that the cloak would always stop the spell, reinforced by the seeded idea that his cloak stops every spell so there wouldn't be any risk to his life.

Burg was challenging the examinees with an impossible task. They are not allowed to use magic that exceeds what his cloak can block. Which is why I'm glad Übel assassinated this guy in front of everyone.

although I'm surprised killing someone is only disqualification instead of jail time?

[Mad Pierrot]

No wonder she kept reminding me of Hisoka. Still, the official twitter account for Frieren's anime is not even subtle about the.... fanservice Ubel provides

[nojay]

Originally Posted by Liddo-kun

Burg was challenging the examinees with an impossible task. They are not allowed to use magic that exceeds what his cloak can block.

The pass qualification for this exam was to force Burg to take at least one step back, not to defeat his cloak magic or hurt him. For example earth magic might work to move the ground beneath his feet or sufficient wind pressure or water pressure could push him backwards.

[TURI123456]

Originally Posted by Liddo-kun

Burg was challenging the examinees with an impossible task. They are not allowed to use magic that exceeds what his cloak can block. Which is why I'm glad Übel assassinated this guy in front of everyone.

although I'm surprised killing someone is only disqualification instead of jail time?

Ubel didn't kill Burg on purpose she miscalculated her cut magic.
And the test wasn't to hurt Burg but to move him if Burg took one step the mage was over the test.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Kanon

She 100% knew Land was a clone. She pretended not to know in order to trick him into helping her. As close to a lie as it gets.

I'm not disagreeing with you that she was manipulating his emotions, but she did so without lying.
Disingenuous is not necessary the same thing as being dishonest.

Originally Posted by Kanon

Don't you think there's also a possibility she didn't want to reveal her full power unless necessary? Again, it was completely trivial to defeat Sense's clone for her.

No reason she couldn't just kill it and then resume flirting with Land. Instead, she went out of her way to ask if it was necessary for it to be defeated.

There's no reason she couldn't just leave Sense's clone alone. From her perspective it's not like it came to her the same way the bandits or Wirbel attacked her first.
Despite her threats towards Land she has never initiated a fight unprovoked. The bandits she killed before Kraft found her and Wirbel attacked her first. She was required to attack Burg to pass the test.

However, avoiding meaningless fights and holding back even during a fight are two different things. Unlike Land or Frieren, Ubel has shown that she enjoys fighting and shows no remorse. That's completely different from the way Land or Frieren act.

[ryllharu]

Originally Posted by TURI123456

Ubel didn't kill Burg on purpose she miscalculated her cut magic.
And the test wasn't to hurt Burg but to move him if Burg took one step the mage was over the test.

Originally Posted by nojay

The pass qualification for this exam was to force Burg to take at least one step back, not to defeat his cloak magic or hurt him. For example earth magic might work to move the ground beneath his feet or sufficient wind pressure or water pressure could push him backwards.

They deliberately limited the type of spells the examinees could use, under the excuse that it was to protect the other examinees. The magic association had zero doubts about Burg's safety. The test was designed to make mages with powerful magic, like we've seen the entire time in both tests this year, unable to use their full potential to get him to take a step back.

You can hypothesize all you want that the test was intended to make them think in novel ways, but Sense doesn't relay that. What we saw was the selection of a small amphitheater with the examinees standing close by, severely limiting the options of most mages we've seen this year. They go on in detail about how his cloak is impervious to magic to the point that he had never been injured a single time since he completed it. "Imbued with so many defensive spells that no magical attack could penetrate it," (emphasis mine). How exactly were any examinees intended to make him take a step back when they couldn't even use large-scale spells? Lastly, they claim that anything actually powerful enough to blast through it or kill him by any other means (perhaps suffocation?) is disqualification.

The only remaining conclusion we can draw is that the test was specifically designed to make more mages fail for unspecified rationale.