[Manga] Elemental Techniques: Raiton and Fuuton?

[Xrayz0r]

Yo.

We've been noticing how there's elemental jutsu with a certain XX-ton element indicator you know what Im talkinabout in front of the name, and jutsu with seemingly an elemental basis but somehow where this title has been left out. Now I've been thinking as to why and why and at one point it made sense for me, but then I stumbled upon Chidori and like I mean, I don't see how Chidori is any different from let's say Gokakyou no Jutsu that way. Both require handseals for whatever purpose, both require elemental recomposition, yet Gokakyou has Katon in front of it and Chidori/Raikiri lacks any "Raiton". Now this could simply be a mistake Kishi made back in the beginning calling it Raikiri perhaps before he even came up with the indepth stuff about elements we've been learning about recently, or there's just something I haven't thought of. Any ideas?

Then on a side note, all Temari's jutsu seem to be clearly Wind based/natured and also lack any Fuuton title. Whereas Oro used a wind technique in the Forest of Death (without any sign of cutting ability) and it was titled Fuuton. Now this seems more to be Kishi developing his story further, going more indepth and while at it, destroying a couple of stuff he's been showing us previously. I mean in both Oro's and Shukaku's jutsu (the only ones titled Fuuton so far as I recall) didn't show any sign of cutting ability. Yet the "new" supposed wind techniques are merely based on cutting and don't seem to deliver any kind of actual wind effect whatsoever.

So again, any ideas?

(this section has been sucking ass boring bigtime lately so I figured I'd just start a more interesting discussion)

[Kinder]

Temari sometimes uses Fuuton before the jutsu name Oo

About chidori, it is most of a custom name, a special one, so no having elemental name behind.

[Rurik]

First off, could you separate your post and Ideas in more paragraphs??? They are hard to read and there a lot of thing mixed up.

Then:

Temay Jutsu has wind on its name: Kamaitachi no Jutsu, カマイタチの術, literally "Cutting Whirlwind Technique",


-On why Some Elements are Raiton and Katon, and others Like Raikiri does not have the “Ton” additive (I guess this is what you are asking given I did not understand your post very well ), is just for the coolness of the name.

The one who created the Jutsu is the one that decides its name, and unless there is a Ninja Rule Book that state that people needs to put “Ton” to each elemental Jutsu, then there is no problem calling your Jutsu “Bad ass Rasengan” instead of “Fuuton Rasengan”

--

-On why Oro and Shukau did not do any Cutting while Assumas and Temary and Baki Jutsus do cut, (having Baki and Temary Jutsu having cutting abbilities shows you that Kishi alreday had the idea of wind having cutting cappcity.)

I guess what a Jutsu does it depends on what the Jutsu its supposed to do, IE: a Water Barrier Jutsu does not harm people, unlike a Water missile Jutsu. So just because some new wind Jutsus show some cuting abbility does not means that All Wind Jutsu needs to have this ability.

--

-The only ones that knows if the Chakra Manipulation was something conceived at the moment he created Naruto series, or something he developed along the way, is Kishimoto, so is really an unanswerable question.

But your confusion about this is certainly not Kishimoto “destroying a couple of stuff he's been showing us previously”,, he is just introducing new elements in the series that complements to what we already know.

This should be move to the Q&A section; this is not really a topic for Debate.

[Xrayz0r]

Temay Jutsu has wind on its name: Kamaitachi no Jutsu, カマイタチの術, literally "Cutting Whirlwind Technique",

Hahaha.


Right... is Hunter or someone else around?

I was hoping for maybe interesting speculation.

[Scarecrow]

So just because some new wind Jutsus show some cuting abbility does not means that All Wind Jutsu needs to have this ability.

i really think you are "elementally confused" :P
that just happens cause water is not all offensive oriented. Would you expect a katon technique not to burn? Or a raiton one not to zap? even a bit? Ofc, the wind techniques cut, that's what they are all about. Fuuton does not consist of techniques that liek spin and create whirlwinds oh wtfpwned, it utilizes the abilities of the wind, hence the name. And hence, we got this argument, so i guess there is idd a reason to debate and not quick answer the thread

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Scarecrow

i really think you are "elementally confused" :P
that just happens cause water is not all offensive oriented. Would you expect a katon technique not to burn? Or a raiton one not to zap? even a bit? Ofc, the wind techniques cut, that's what they are all about. Fuuton does not consist of techniques that liek spin and create whirlwinds oh wtfpwned, it utilizes the abilities of the wind, hence the name. And hence, we got this argument, so i guess there is idd a reason to debate and not quick answer the thread

It seems you did not get my post, I said:

“I guess what a Jutsu does it depends on what the Jutsu its supposed to do” Like The Shadow Bind Technique does not Kill, whereas the Shadow Neck Bind does kill, I used Two water Jutsu as an Example.

So IF there is a Jutsu made of wind which purpose is to cut, doesn’t mean every Wind Jutsu needs to have this property, A gust of wind is different from wind concentrated in a small point. And hence this is an Question that it is most suitable for the Q&A thread

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by Xrayz0r

Hahaha.


Right... is Hunter or someone else around?

I was hoping for maybe interesting speculation.

Why dont you give hunter a call then? Dont the others who replied gave you an interesting speculation?

But you are correct...so far we've seen:
"Katon" [jutsu name]
"Doton" [jutsu name]
"Suiton" [jutsu name]

And that's it...the other elements (except wind) had names but without the Fuuton or Rai (lightning correct?)

Come to think of it...i think Gaara had such a attack and also named it...its not the Shukaku alone.
Asuma's chakra blade is also wind based but has no name.

And Kinjutsu ofcourse and most of the Kinjutsu were not even based on an element.

[Kinder]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

But you are correct...so far we've seen:
"Katon" [jutsu name]
"Doton" [jutsu name]
"Suiton" [jutsu name]

you've seen more then that for sure

[Xrayz0r]

Why dont you give hunter a call then? Dont the others who replied gave you an interesting speculation?

I wasn't being exactly serious.

More like pointing out how Rurik better not had replied to this thread at all cause of reasons that are pertty much obvious =P


Anyway Kinder is right. Raiton we've never seen really, but Fuuton we did. Still weird how we recently learned how the concept of Wind is basically "cut", yet all wind techniques we've seen before this was introduced did not cut at all.

Seems like another mistake on Kishi's part really.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Xrayz0r

Anyway Kinder is right. Raiton we've never seen really, but Fuuton we did. Still weird how we recently learned how the concept of Wind is basically "cut",

The concept of Wind is wind element, the concept of coverting your chakra into Wind helps to Cut, -naruto has been only Using his chakra converted into wind, applied to specific tings.

In this case, he is using his chakra without giving it shape, but if you give shape to alter the already Elemental Manipulated Chakra you can dictate it Power and range, The Wind as the same as water have different properties depnding on how they are handled- as the wind can cut, not because this is what wind does, rather because its concentrated wind on a Small point.

IF you dont understand that, let me give you ane example: Have you heard about the Water Knife? well is a machine that shoots water with such presure that cuts even metal.

yet all wind techniques we've seen before this was introduced did not cut at all.

Of course, Baki wind Sword is not of Wind.

Seems like another mistake on Kishi's part really.

Yeah, when someone dont understand something, people tend to call them mistakes.

[Zek]

A name is just that, a name. I imagine saying/thinking the name has nothing to do with actually performing a jutsu, and the user can call it whatever they want. I don't think the fact that the one Raiton jutsu we've seen doesn't use that naming convention is particularly meaningful.

[Xrayz0r]

The concept of Wind is wind element, the concept of coverting your chakra into Wind helps to Cut, -naruto has been only Using his chakra converted into wind, applied to specific tings.

In this case, he is using his chakra without giving it shape, but if you give shape to alter the already Elemental Manipulated Chakra you can dictate it Power and range, The Wind as the same as water have different properties depnding on how they are handled- as the wind can cut, not because this is what wind does, rather because its concentrated wind on a Small point.

IF you dont understand that, let me give you ane example: Have you heard about the Water Knife? well is a machine that shoots water with such presure that cuts even metal.

Dont say how other people don't get things so quickly, especially when you're not too sure of yourself. Obviously, you are wrong. The concept of the Wind element is "CUT", backed up by Asuma explaining exactly how Naruto has to control his chakra in order to make it cut, after which he can proudly say he has mastered the element of Wind. It's not utilising any regular wind abilities at all. Nor does this way of chakra manipulation create any wind effect. All it does is cut, and that's the essence of the element Wind. The element of Fire burns, the element of Water makes wet, and the element of Wind, cuts. Take Kakashi's chakra papers as evidence.

Of course, Baki wind Sword is not of Wind.

Topic has been up till now: Wind techniques that are called Fuuton.

Is Baki's jutsu called Fuuton? Nope.

So I'll ignore your reply and repeat: "yet all wind techniques we've seen before this was introduced did not cut at all"

That's a true statement. All Fuutons so far created an actual Wind. And all wind based techniques so far that do not contradict what Kishi has learned us in the latest chapters (unlike the actual Fuutons which did create a real wind effect), were not called Fuuton. Baki's, and Temari's jutsu who were obviously elementally recomposed, altered into the nature of Wind, weren't called Fuuton.

Now since all evidence on the Wind element we've got comes from Asuma, the element of Wind is not supposed to create an actual Wind. The concept is cutting.

Therefore Kishi seems to be contradicting himself.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by Kinder

you've seen more then that for sure

Yes ofcourse....but it's a waste of time to mention all of them...many jutsu's dont even have the elemental name before it. Like Rasengan...which is a mere ball of chakra

[Xrayz0r]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

Yes ofcourse....but it's a waste of time to mention all of them...many jutsu's dont even have the elemental name before it. Like Rasengan...which is a mere ball of chakra

Unlike Chidori, Rasengan is not supposed to be elemental.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by Xrayz0r

Unlike Chidori, Rasengan is not supposed to be elemental.

What? I thought they recently said that Rasengan was incomplete because inserting elemental chakra (like wind) in such a high lvl control jutsu like Rasengan was impossible so far.

I think it was SUPPOSED to be elemental but it never got there...and if i am correct the reason for creating Rasengan was because of that...

[MobiuS]

The point he is makin is that ... Rasengan AS WE KNOW IT is not Elemental. When it becomes so (which Naruto will show us in combat ... because he has a knack of performing high level jutsus perfectly for the first time in combat) the jutsu will become elemental. Well at least his version of it.

[Kinder]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

What? I thought they recently said that Rasengan was incomplete because inserting elemental chakra (like wind) in such a high lvl control jutsu like Rasengan was impossible so far.

I think it was SUPPOSED to be elemental but it never got there...and if i am correct the reason for creating Rasengan was because of that...

Rasengan isn't supposed to be elemental. Rasengan is just a preparation for some jutsu with elemental chakra molded to the max.

yet, wind seems to be the element that suits best rasengan

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Xrayz0r

Dont say how other people don't get things so quickly, especially when you're not too sure of yourself. Obviously, you are wrong. The concept of the Wind element is "CUT", backed up by Asuma explaining exactly how Naruto has to control his chakra in order to make it cut, after which he can proudly say he has mastered the element of Wind. It's not utilising any regular wind abilities at all. Nor does this way of chakra manipulation create any wind effect. All it does is cut, and that's the essence of the element Wind. The element of Fire burns, the element of Water makes wet, and the element of Wind, cuts. Take Kakashi's chakra papers as evidence.

Topic has been up till now: Wind techniques that are called Fuuton.

Is Baki's jutsu called Fuuton? Nope.

So I'll ignore your reply and repeat: "yet all wind techniques we've seen before this was introduced did not cut at all"

That's a true statement. All Fuutons so far created an actual Wind. And all wind based techniques so far that do not contradict what Kishi has learned us in the latest chapters (unlike the actual Fuutons which did create a real wind effect), were not called Fuuton. Baki's, and Temari's jutsu who were obviously elementally recomposed, altered into the nature of Wind, weren't called Fuuton.

Now since all evidence on the Wind element we've got comes from Asuma, the element of Wind is not supposed to create an actual Wind. The concept is cutting.

Therefore Kishi seems to be contradicting himself.

It seems you don't read well, decided to ignore things or invent things on your own, It does not matter if the name of the Jutsu has or does not have Fuuton, Baki Jutsu was wind elemental and it cutted, hence "yet all wind techniques we've seen before this was introduced did not cut" Its a contradictory observation. you are only using your Theory because you don't like what you have seen in the Manga. in fact your observation is flawed:

IT was shown that what the Lighting techniques are supposed to do is crumple things, yet CHidory, which was Specified to be a lighting elemental, what it does is pierce things instead of Do what its "supposed" to do, So that's mean that Kakashi Jutsu also contradict the elements , And the Doton Jutsu are supposed to turn thing to dust instead using the earth as an Element...

I found funny that you forgot to mention what this two elements are supposed to do.

Jutsus that does not have Futton in their Name are still Wind elemental Jutsus, because the name of the Jutsu does not have it its a choice of not using the name as Zek stated, rather than a Mistake or contradiction by Kishi because you say so.


Regarding Asumma Wind Jutsus, Read the Manga and understand why Assumas wind have a cutting action: Assumas Blades are made wiht a special metal that channels the wielder chakra, and Assumas Jutsu is only Chakra elemental Manipulation and it doesn't have Shape Manipulation.

The reason why Some wind Jutsu cut and others do not, are directly tied to what the Jutsu is supposed to do, and this could be tied to Chakra Shape altering, and not to some person thinking kishimoto is contradicting itself.

[Duckling]

The original question was, I believe, why do some jutsus have something-ton before their name while some don't, right?

Well, the way I see it is that those with the *insert element*ton jutsus are more specialized and concentrated on the element at hand, and don't require anything but the handseals and some ability to control the specific element in order to be used.
However, things like Temari's jutsu and Raikiri are different, because they can't just be used by anyone who can control that element, as they require something else than ability to control the needed element. You need something else that is important in order to perform that jutsu, and so, the element isn't the only main focus on it, which causes the *inser telement*ton to be dropped.

Like Raikiri. You need to be able to control lightning chakra, meaning you must have lightning elemented chakra, you need to be able to change its shape, and you need enough speed to perform that thing, while, say, Gouykakyo no Jutsu only requires the ability to control the fire element, enough chakra, and the handseals. So, a random person able to use lightning jutsu couldn't just suddenly use Raikiri.

Same goes for Temari's jutsu. She needs her fan in order to do jutsus, and so we could say that the main focus, the most important thing in performing the jutsu is not the wind element, but the fan. The chakra she uses in her techingues isn't used to control wind directly, but to control her fan, which leads to controlling wind she uses to cut stuff.

Remember Zaku and his Zankuuha? That's another example like Temari's. He needs those holes in his hands.

----

And the other "question" was why weren't the wind technigues cutting before, and now the new ones are all about cutting, right?

So, so far, it seems that those technigues with the Fuuton in them didn't cut, but the new ones and some of the others (which all lack the Fuuton) do cut? Now this one I'm a bit unsure of, but...

Those jutsu that had the Fuuton are the ones that actually control wind with chakra. You know, the regular wind? You form nifty handseals and control the wind, the actual wind. However, those other, cutting jutsu don't use actual wind in them, they just use wind elemented chakra. It's your chakra, and it's wind based, but it's not that actual wind blowing outside.

And if you have wind chakra, what's the smartest thing to use it to? That's right, cutting. What else should you do with it? Blow your opponent away? That could work if you controlled the actual wind like you do with the Fuuton technigues, but isn't so. Or are you going to send your chakra to blow your opponent away?

Then again, Temari seems to somehow collide with this. She's using her fan, hasn't got the Fuuton and cuts, so that's all fine and well, but it doesn't seem like she's controlling the actual wind or her own wind chakra... it just seems like she's controlling her fan, and, well, being a fan, it effects the wind.

----

Basically, to sum up, I think I would say that those jutsus with *Insert element*ton, are the ones where you use the actual element, not that elemented chakra. (Asuma's chakra's wind based, but he can still use fire jutsu, because that controls fire itself, and does not require fire elemented chakra. Orochimaru, too, has used wind and fire technigues, etc etc) and you don't need something extra to use such a technigue (Temari's fan, etc).

While those technigues without the -ton are ones that are more individual, because you need something extra to use them, and/or because you need to have a specific elemented chakra to perform it.

... Neh, just my thoughts on the matter.

[Rurik]

Your theory would be correct, and I was toying wiht that Idea, but then:

Mitzu Bushin don't have The Suiton, yet they use the water at hand, then we have a couple of Jutsus wiht the suiton part that were Used with the already existing water and also it was made creating the water out of nothing.

This sums up the two question, there is aboslutly nothing were you can separate "Ton" named Jutsus in group and the create another group for the ones that does not use the "ton", ie, some Tons named Jutsus behave like those you saw wihout the Ton, and viceversa.

We go more in dept why Some Jutsu that are of winds does not cut, the answer is simple, There is no rule that say they cant, having or not the Fuuton wont dictate that it would not cut, because then There would be no reason to have the Mitzu Bushin without the Suiton. and A good example also are the Doton element which have presented 3 states so far: Rock Solid Earth, Mud, and Dust.

Lets put it like this: the first question about the name is the same to ask why Tsuande does not wear the Hokage Outfit wereas Sandaime always wear that, or to ask Why Some Uchihas had black Hair whie other don't, The answer is simply Because they are like that.

In the seocnd question I think is a confussion from part of the readers, the readers see Wind cuting (in its Raw state), the people think this is what its going to do always, even after shape alteration, this was not stated and who knows? Maybe the Shape alteration is what makes the Wind Jutsu not cut. if you alter the shape of wind you can create a single presure point to cut, but if you shape it to a bigger range, It creates a gust of wind.