What is with sexist themes in anime?

[FatPianoBoy]

Originally Posted by Providence.

I guess I should've mentioned it more in my first post, but the overwhelming imagery I received from watching the OVA's was that it's not that Belldandy *enjoys* being a "housewife", but that she enjoys being 100% servile.

In this respect, I'm comparing her to a slave, because she doesn't seem to hold much of a personality at all. Her actions are almost completely reactionary to what Keniichi does. In effect, if you took out the love portion, it pretty much would be slavery. There's no sense of true enjoyment the two get out of each other. Again, I haven't seen the newer series or read the manga (ANIME? =P).

Love Hina is a bit different in this regard, as it's overtly a rom-com (I consider A/OMG a pure romance series) and the women in the series are sufficiently characterized NOT to be mindless cooks and cleaners.

Yeah... I didn't really like any of the animes. The manga develops her character much further than the "I love cooking and cleaning for Morisato!" stuff. She likes working on mechanical devices, she plays referee between Urd and Skuld constantly, and she's key in developing a very strange "friendship" with a few sworn enemies. She also kicks a substantial amount of butt on a few occasions with her magic.
The movie is good stuff and also adds a lot of development to all the characters. And Belldandy only spends roughly 10% of the time in the kitchen

[Papaya]

That sounds a lot more appealing.

I must admit I made the topic just to throw the question in the air.

[animefanrk2k]

I think we need more anime where the males are akin to being Fujitaka Kinomoto, a man who can stand his ground, but doesn't mind giving way to others as well.

Tenchi... there's something that's rather incomprehensible, though after watching it, I can at least understand why Ryoko likes him and thus, why she deserves to be with Tenchi more than all of them. The Tenchi series is an enigma, but at least, he doesn't make it a point to degrade women. They just happen to degrade themselves and thus, not many people like it as much.

Love Hina is good. The girls all have personalities that grow as the series progresses, especially in the manga.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by Providence.

I guess I should've mentioned it more in my first post, but the overwhelming imagery I received from watching the OVA's was that it's not that Belldandy *enjoys* being a "housewife", but that she enjoys being 100% servile.

If it is something she herself enjoys then i fail to see the problem

[Aidan]

Originally Posted by kj1980

Kagami (while watching Konata playing a galge): "Why does the main male lead in these types of games are so popular with the girls?"
Konata (while playing a galge): "I dunno. Maybe because if he wasn't, there wouldn't be a story in the first place?"

Kagami (while watching Konata playing a galge): "Why do girls in these types of games are all nice and cute, yet they have no boyfriends?"
Konata (while playing a galge): "I dunno. Maybe because if they did, there wouldn't be a story in the first place?"

LMAO , talk about some hilarious dialog.

I tend to agree with the OP, there are a couple of anime where women have strong roles, yet those anime don't seem to be popular among girls, example GITS. I think it comes down to why girls like to gossip (I know this is just a stereotype ), girls like to see other girls make fools of themselves so they can feel good about them self. *runs from all the feminists* I've never been a big fan of Oh/Ah my goddess (TV), ever see that episode where Urd fell in love and turned into a traditional Japanese house wife, It's a Otaku dream.

BTW I thought girls watched anime to see the pretty boys.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by Aidan

BTW I thought girls watched anime to see the pretty boys.

thats a lie! most of the time the male lead of a harem is about average in terms of looks...but in others like ouran host club i would imagine girls drooling over it im a guy but i still think that ouran has a cast of super hot guys

[Aidan]

Well there are those harem anime for girls right, anime with lots of buyxguy action. Not that I know any, mind you.

[tugatosmk]

Originally Posted by Veritas

Consequently, you get shounen anime where there is hardly any focus on girls at all, eroge conversions which is the wish fulfillment of the aforementioned Japanese men, and shoujo anime which may feature a girl as the herione, but she is still a clumsy idiot who cries about everything, and still needs a boyfriend to come save her or make her feel like she has worth.

It's unfortunate, but not likely to change for many, many years.

Is it all so black and white as you paint it? Hmm... I don't think so.


Anyway, there's always older anime which can fit a "grey" state, like Touch.

I'm still happy with modern anime, though; otherwise, I' d had given up on anime a long time ago. I guess I'm not too picky...?

Sure, there are a lot more "otaku-wise" series recently, but that must also have something to do with Japan's turn-of-the-century economical society crisis (somehow, I can draw a parallel on this). Some of those series I'd watch it for fun without analysing thoroughly why this or that character behaves so exageratedly.

In the case of:
- The "über-boistering" female/male characters: I usually laugh at their "stupidity" XD (it's good to improve the mood. )
- The ero-game girl who is super-super cute with the REALLY high pitch voice (and likes): well... I just don't pay much attention to it. But I wouldn't be too wrong as to say that this kind of character actually exists in real life...
- The over-busty fanservice-type girl: I just laugh at it, LOL!! (Although the blame here goes to the american influence on Japan... shame...)
- The slacker/geek/"loser" guy who doesn't improve himself: even if there's no improvement to his character, this kind of character isn't that unbearable to me. To the anime fans (not otakus) this characters "message" should be: "don't end up like him, because real life doesn't offer you such girls and perfect opportunities."
- The slacker/geek/"loser" guy who does improve himself: To the anime fans (not otakus), it should work as a "message": one can always change himself it he gives his best."
- The "slave" girl (as some call them): I don't like them very much, I have to say, but I don't go to the extreme of hating them for that. Some say it's an otaku dream come true; I couldn't care less, I'm not an otaku; as long the story is interesting... (and they normally are).
- And so on, and so on...

But I also realize that there are some series that even I probably won't watch, like some M.O.E. series; I also have some standards. :\

Yet, Karin and Ginban Kaleidoscope are very modern series that have that "old-style" appeal, entering in the aforementioned "grey" state.

Of course, there's always the "maxima" point: there's more life to than anime! Although anime takes a big part of my life (in "taste", not necessarily in time spent; I havent watch an anime series since last summer!), I also have other things that I like (music, sports (F1, football), photography...) and really important things that keep me busy (college). So I don't get frustrated or too tense analysing every modern series and comparing to old-style aniem or comparing its manga predecessors. As for the ideal girl/women... the real thing is just better.

To me, the actual anime panorama is till good.

[Matrim]

This thread's title is so misleading. As mentioned many times girls in general do not like the Ah, My Goddess type of anime, nor it is aimed at them.

edit: And girls hold each other to a weird standard. Take a poll of the most hated characters among female viewers of anime, and I'm sure you're likely to find that most of them are female. It seems like women are encouraged to elevate themselves by bashing others of their gender, instead of trying to change the way they are seen as a group. Indoctrinated into subconscious self-loathing because being a girl is never a good thing (i.e., girls dressing like boys is fine, and boys dressing like girls isn't).

Er, so first you complain most anime is aimed at male otakus and is filled with moronic female characters who are there to fullfill the wishes of the male audience, then complain that women bash these very same characters? Doesn't seem a logical conclusion to me. If even I see many anime girls as an insult to women, surely a lot of the female viewers feel the same?

Anyway, just to show a different angle - this thread is about sexism, yet no one seems to complain when the wide spread tsundere character archetype physically assaults men whenever she feels liek doing it. If there were male tsunderes who slapped girls who accepted this with laughter this would probably lead to an outrage. Double standard?

Anyway, the sexism problem is just a part fo the catering for a certain limited target audience strategy. Not many series every season dare take risks and try to have different, more realistic characters, plots less filled with cliches, main female characters who are not cute or who are older than 20 and so on.

[Papaya]

Originally Posted by Matrim

This thread's title is so misleading. As mentioned many times girls in general do not like the Ah, My Goddess type of anime, nor it is aimed at them.



Er, so first you complain most anime is aimed at male otakus and is filled with moronic female characters who are there to fullfill the wishes of the male audience, then complain that women bash these very same characters? Doesn't seem a logical conclusion to me. If even I see many anime girls as an insult to women, surely a lot of the female viewers feel the same?

Anyway, just to show a different angle - this thread is about sexism, yet no one seems to complain when the wide spread tsundere character archetype physically assaults men whenever she feels liek doing it. If there were male tsunderes who slapped girls who accepted this with laughter this would probably lead to an outrage. Double standard?

Anyway, the sexism problem is just a part fo the catering for a certain limited target audience strategy. Not many series every season dare take risks and try to have different, more realistic characters, plots less filled with cliches, main female characters who are not cute or who are older than 20 and so on.

There's a difference between social progression and social acceptance. This thread is about social progression. You're giving examples of social acceptance.

The double standard you mention is not one created by viewers. It's one created by society.

[Veritas]

Originally Posted by Matrim

Er, so first you complain most anime is aimed at male otakus and is filled with moronic female characters who are there to fullfill the wishes of the male audience, then complain that women bash these very same characters? Doesn't seem a logical conclusion to me. If even I see many anime girls as an insult to women, surely a lot of the female viewers feel the same?

Those weren't complaints, and you're taking what I said out of context. The first paragraph containing the reference to "wish-fulfillment girls," was an attempt to explain the sexist themes in most anime. My edit trying to explain to why women don't seem to come down on sexist anime for being sexist, but because the female characters are bitches or something.

Love Hina, for example. Clearly designed for the wish-fulfillment otaku types. Yet, the women who I have heard speak of it don't attack the sexism of the entire package, but hate on Naru because she's a bitch.

[Anime Online]

Belldandy is representative of the traditional Japanese ideal of femininity. She is yamato nadesico incarnate. Other anime characters that hold to such an impossible ideal would be Yakumo (School Rumble).

Cultural differences mean there are certain things the Japanese find very appealing, which the outside world has not a clue about. So to understand why the Japanese people find something so appealing, it is necessary to have an understanding of their underlying culture.

[Papaya]

Originally Posted by Anime Online

Belldandy is representative of the traditional Japanese ideal of femininity. She is yamato nadesico incarnate. Other anime characters that hold to such an impossible ideal would be Yakumo (School Rumble).

Cultural differences mean there are certain things the Japanese find very appealing, which the outside world has not a clue about. So to understand why the Japanese people find something so appealing, it is necessary to have an understanding of their underlying culture.

This is a good point and understood, but I actually wasn't speaking of Japanese women.

I could say the same for anime fans' perceptions of social quirks in Japan. For example, while most anime fans would cringe at the thought of pedophilia in the USA, they accept it as a part of Japan, for the sole reason that it makes Japan "unique".

[arias]

Originally Posted by Providence.

But that's not my point. I'm not talking about guys liking anime aimed for guys. I'm talking about why girls like anime that clearly degrades them as a sex.

This is far too simplistic a statement. You must be young.

People watch things for all sorts of reasons, and don't always often pay attention to the general scheme or arc of things behind scenes. That is, plenty of people watch anime for its CONTENT in a narrow sense, and don't consider its content in the broader social context. Not everything has to be taken on a meta-level as well. There are plenty of shows on TV that promotes stereotypes, but I don't think the best question is why people persist to watch them... Not everything has to be framed into a political dimension.

I don't think anime degrades females as a sex. If anything, it degrades the male. Just think of this more clearly and you'll see. It's really more about fulfilling the male than about degrading the female. The "degradation" of the female, as you put it, is merely an unfortunate by-product in the course of that fulfillment.

So to answer your question, females who enjoy these sort of products and content probably don't ever notice or frame the particular product in that sexist dimension.

[Aoie_Emesai]

Originally Posted by Veritas

Except few of those characters are strong, smart, intelligent people.

Girls don't like sexist themes in anime. Consider, however, that most anime are created for socially retarded Japanese men, Japan doesn't have much in the way of a women's movement, and most girls aren't bright enough to key into the underlying sexism (most men aren't smart enough to realize that what they're watching is crap, either).

Consequently, you get shounen anime where there is hardly any focus on girls at all, eroge conversions which is the wish fulfillment of the aforementioned Japanese men, and shoujo anime which may feature a girl as the herione, but she is still a clumsy idiot who cries about everything, and still needs a boyfriend to come save her or make her feel like she has worth.

It's unfortunate, but not likely to change for many, many years.

edit: And girls hold each other to a weird standard. Take a poll of the most hated characters among female viewers of anime, and I'm sure you're likely to find that most of them are female. It seems like women are encouraged to elevate themselves by bashing others of their gender, instead of trying to change the way they are seen as a group. Indoctrinated into subconscious self-loathing because being a girl is never a good thing (i.e., girls dressing like boys is fine, and boys dressing like girls isn't).

Veritas, would you find that your explanation is true in the real world too or just the 2D world? This seems to be rather opposite of so i may say. In the real world, we are supposbly be meant to treat females a superior type of humam. (back to the anime world-->) Tsundere seems to be popular, but yet if we turn that around, people consider it abuse. Now it's much more unlikey for a wife to beat up her spouse, or is it that if that were to happen the male is emotional scarred for life, and would never talk about such matters? The world is a sexist world. No matter how much time has passed, people are still stuck in that olden tradition where the females cook, clean and took care of the kids, while the male gather food/water/money and took care of the physical labor. Now of course, now days the work is almost evenly spreaded among the 2 spouse.

Would you say that women of this world are more likely to go toward a men of exceptional physical appearance or one where the men looks nerdy? The most usual answer would be the to go along with the hansome one. While the world as a whole may becoming more educated, no more is known for them than the information along their field of study.

ps: sorry, I tend to jump from topic to topic.

[animefanrk2k]

Hmm... let's see if I can still make an intelligent point...

I theoretically wonder why guys like tsundere archetypes sometimes. I mean, yes, there are many instances where the guy is a loser that cannot defend themselves. Does it make the guys look good that this particular character is being beaten on? No. Does it make the girl look good that she's beating on someone who probably has little to no chance of defending themselves? Also no. Then what's the point?

You have to remember that because of various factors, anime is a genre of entertainment with many different subgenres as well. Entertainment is meant to entertain and for whatever reason, some people like certain anime or certain characters. That's all right. However, this does not necessarily reflect on what a person believes is right or wrong.

I am a fan of the strong-willed honest girls in anime myself. This is because while yes, they may on occasion pick on the little guy, they themselves are redeeming to me because that strong-will means that they're willing to be clear and precise on the things they say or do. I like a few of thoser loser-types, especially the ones that improve, because they represent weakness, or an exaggeration of it, which holds true for people as well. So do I like to see a girl beat on a guy? Certainly, for purely entertainment purposes. Will I like a character for beating on or for being beaten on? No, that's different.

So it's not about girls liking sexist anime, but about people in general liking anime that have broader genres that may not necessarily be the reason why they like it. I mean, I can tell you I like this character or this anime, but I don't think that my entire view should be based upon what genre that anime happens to be. Don't you think that's true? =)

[Yogo_Pogo]

Analysing anime is hard. For me it is because the analyse will make us realise that anime got lots of bad things in it. Useless violence, stupidity , useless fanservice and more. I prefer not to analyse things that i take for entertainment because it will destroy the joy that i could have to watch it.

We can if we want, look deeply inside of anime, analyse it and such but judging people by the anime they like or the anime they produce is going a little bit too far.

Women are women, men are men. What they decide to do is their decision. But when the choice was forced or is not good for the person who choosed then we can say it's not good.

My poor english enables me to only say that for the moment.
Interesting thread.

[Veritas]

Originally Posted by Aoie_Emesai

Veritas, would you find that your explanation is true in the real world too or just the 2D world? This seems to be rather opposite of so i may say. In the real world, we are supposbly be meant to treat females a superior type of humam. (back to the anime world-->) Tsundere seems to be popular, but yet if we turn that around, people consider it abuse. Now it's much more unlikey for a wife to beat up her spouse, or is it that if that were to happen the male is emotional scarred for life, and would never talk about such matters? The world is a sexist world. No matter how much time has passed, people are still stuck in that olden tradition where the females cook, clean and took care of the kids, while the male gather food/water/money and took care of the physical labor. Now of course, now days the work is almost evenly spreaded among the 2 spouse.

Would you say that women of this world are more likely to go toward a men of exceptional physical appearance or one where the men looks nerdy? The most usual answer would be the to go along with the hansome one. While the world as a whole may becoming more educated, no more is known for them than the information along their field of study.

ps: sorry, I tend to jump from topic to topic.

Oh, the real world, too. Where and in what way are women treated as a superior form of human? Aspiring to be female has always been looked discouraged. A boy likes playing with dolls? He's a sissy. Dressing nicely? Faggot. Whereas girls are given trucks and dressed in blue, and told she needs to toughen up and run with the guys. I don't watch many shows that feature tsundere, so I don't feel I can offer a good example of what the reverse would be. However, from what I've observed about the phenomonon and its ripples throughout the anime world, it degrades women because they're shown to be fierce or at least strong (or, as is usually the case, a bitch), until they fall in love with a guy. The Taming of the Shrew x1000. Losing my train of thought, so I'll stop there.

Yes, women aren't as expected to be confined to the house today, but studies have shown that even if a woman holds a job, she is still chiefly responsible for child rearing, cooking, and cleaning. Don't know where the handsome or ugly man thing comes in, but women are of course going to pursue the more attractive man if they have the same income and potential. Otherwise, it would probably get much more iffy, as men are usually shown as perhaps not being handsome, but rich or smart or powerful some other way. Women are only ever just pretty.

This is straying off topic, so perhaps we should take it to PM.

[Aoie_Emesai]

Originally Posted by Veritas

Oh, the real world, too. Where and in what way are women treated as a superior form of human? Aspiring to be female has always been looked discouraged. A boy likes playing with dolls? He's a sissy. Dressing nicely? Faggot. Whereas girls are given trucks and dressed in blue, and told she needs to toughen up and run with the guys. I don't watch many shows that feature tsundere, so I don't feel I can offer a good example of what the reverse would be. However, from what I've observed about the phenomonon and its ripples throughout the anime world, it degrades women because they're shown to be fierce or at least strong (or, as is usually the case, a bitch), until they fall in love with a guy. The Taming of the Shrew x1000. Losing my train of thought, so I'll stop there.

Yes, women aren't as expected to be confined to the house today, but studies have shown that even if a woman holds a job, she is still chiefly responsible for child rearing, cooking, and cleaning. Don't know where the handsome or ugly man thing comes in, but women are of course going to pursue the more attractive man if they have the same income and potential. Otherwise, it would probably get much more iffy, as men are usually shown as perhaps not being handsome, but rich or smart or powerful some other way. Women are only ever just pretty.

This is straying off topic, so perhaps we should take it to PM.

Hahhahaha...^_^(sorry, i had to laugh, loved your post. I couldn't find the words to descirbe what you said, so i didn't posted it down) Crap, i knew i forgot to add something along with my nerdy/hansome men sentence. Sorry, sorry. Well that's is what we would call "perfect" wouldn't we. Using a male as an example, if he we're attractive, successful, humorous, friendly, and many other positive characterisics that we possess, then that's would consider "perfect". And same for a woman too.

"sigh" and it's pretty much all true too.

For Taming of the Shrew, wasn't it all an act, at the end i mean or it wasn't?

Originally Posted by animefanrk2k

I think we need more anime where the males are akin to being Fujitaka Kinomoto, a man who can stand his ground, but doesn't mind giving way to others as well.

Tenchi... there's something that's rather incomprehensible, though after watching it, I can at least understand why Ryoko likes him and thus, why she deserves to be with Tenchi more than all of them. The Tenchi series is an enigma, but at least, he doesn't make it a point to degrade women. They just happen to degrade themselves and thus, not many people like it as much.

Love Hina is good. The girls all have personalities that grow as the series progresses, especially in the manga.

Degrading anime character, male or female makes the anime so much harder to watch because of the stupid character the developers decided to put amongst the others. While watching Yakitate Japan, I still hate all the over exaggeration they decided to put into the anime, but it does make you laugh and it's still a great anime. Character personality can be very limiting when almost every single outstanding or noticable personality are taken into the main steam anime and are used as reference such as Naru's altering temper against Keitaro, Samurai girl Motoko, strong yet shy. Su, ADD inflicted hyper active, yet very intelligent. Shinobu, cute, docile. Kitsune, she doesn't really have any outstanding personality to describe, but she's very calm, mature and pretty much is the main supporting character.