Several VS opinions

[Tak]

Regardless, Kira is still good with his hands...

Heh... heh heh... heheheheheheheh!!!!

- Tak

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by M_Flores

Kira vs Athrun in a gun fight.

Kira. They are very unlikely to actually shoot at one another, and Kira is, hands down, the best at throwing his pistol.

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Yeah, Kira would just chuck his pistol and knock Athrun out XD

[M_Flores]

The guns can be loaded with anything, so if you're gonna make the pussy excuse that they wont shoot each other, assume they are playing paint ball or something.

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Kira would probably pull the same type of stunt that he did when he first met Andy, lol.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by M_Flores

The guns can be loaded with anything, so if you're gonna make the pussy excuse that they wont shoot each other, assume they are playing paint ball or something.

You were serious about the setup? In that case there was no real point to bringing it up. While we know that Kira's skills have improved since Seed, there's no way to tell how good he is compared to Athrun. There's really no basis for meaningful comparison.

[M_Flores]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

You were serious about the setup? In that case there was no real point to bringing it up. While we know that Kira's skills have improved since Seed, there's no way to tell how good he is compared to Athrun. There's really no basis for meaningful comparison.

I meant pistol fight, not actually in a mobile suit with beam rifles.
I was gonna say, I never really seen Kira hit anyone/anything, while Athrun has displayed very elite marksmanship during the outdoor training he showed Luna and the others as well as the Meer episode before she dies - only Athrun was really seen to have hit anybody. Just by this alone, I'd say that Athrun > Kira with guns, so unless anyone can tell or show me otherwise, I'd like to wait for a response to this.
The only time I've seen Kira hit anybody with a gun was against Le Creuset (two years ago, lol), and that took many rounds before he even hit him.

[kiramuro]

Originally Posted by M_Flores

I meant pistol fight, not actually in a mobile suit with beam rifles.
I was gonna say, I never really seen Kira hit anyone/anything, while Athrun has displayed very elite marksmanship during the outdoor training he showed Luna and the others as well as the Meer episode before she dies - only Athrun was really seen to have hit anybody. Just by this alone, I'd say that Athrun > Kira with guns, so unless anyone can tell or show me otherwise, I'd like to wait for a response to this.

Actually it's implied in that episode that either Kira or Meryin was able hit a flying grenade in whcih the bullet deflected the grenade back towards the thrower. Now that is impressive marksmanship.

[M_Flores]

Originally Posted by kiramuro

Actually it's implied in that episode that either Kira or Meryin was able hit a flying grenade in whcih the bullet deflected the grenade back towards the thrower. Now that is impressive marksmanship.

...and pot luck I'd say, lol.
Athrun on the other hand, was pretty much playing Time Crisis against at least a dozen grunts or something.

[kiramuro]

Originally Posted by M_Flores

...and pot luck I'd say, lol.
Athrun on the other hand, was pretty much playing Time Crisis against at least a dozen grunts or something.

luck==skill Yeah I agree Athrun absolutely pwns with a handgun. He is going all Rambo and shit on those assassins but i don't think Kira would be worse if given enough training. I doubt his old man forgot to give him the hand-eye coordination plus reflex upgrade.

[SNT1]

Funny how Athrun actually shoots the assassin while Kira just 'poses' in the end.

Wouldn't surprise me at all if it was Meyrin who shot the grenade

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Probably in some panicked accidental fluke or something, lol.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by M_Flores

I meant pistol fight, not actually in a mobile suit with beam rifles.

My response was made with the same understanding in mind.

Originally Posted by M_Flores

I was gonna say, I never really seen Kira hit anyone/anything, while Athrun has displayed very elite marksmanship during the outdoor training he showed Luna and the others as well as the Meer episode before she dies - only Athrun was really seen to have hit anybody. Just by this alone, I'd say that Athrun > Kira with guns, so unless anyone can tell or show me otherwise, I'd like to wait for a response to this.

This is why I said that there's no real basis for comparison. All that we can say with confidence is that Kira is better in Destiny with a pistol than he was in Seed. To what degree his skill improved is completely unknown. All we know is that he fired off a half-dozen shots to unknown effect. As an aside, I think that it was more amusing when Kira was hopeless with handguns.

Incidentally, this lack of confidence is also the same reason why I don't like comparing pilots' skills.

[4Tran]

I'll toss one out here: Gundam Double X vs. Wing Zero Gundam.

This duel takes place at the L4 Lagrange point with empty space in all directions. The mobile suits start 500km from one another, and know of each other's presence. Both mobile suits are piloted by competent pilots - the Wing Zero pilot can use the Zero system to it's full capability, and the Double X pilot can likewise use the twin satellite cannon. Please use only verifiable points to support your arguments.

There's also a few questions to ponder:
Is there enough data to determine which has the advantage?
What would be the optimal tactics of the two machines?
What difference, if any, would there be if this duel took place at the L1 or L2 points (assuming that there's empty space at those locations as well)?

[monster]

I forgot, does Double X still requires input from the moon to use its satellite cannon like X?

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Yes, the Twin Satellite Cannon still requires microwave energy beamed from the Satellite System on the moon to be able to generate enough energy to use them.

[monster]

Then I suppose

Originally Posted by 4Tran

What difference, if any, would there be if this duel took place at the L1 or L2 points (assuming that there's empty space at those locations as well)?

It may depend on (among other factors) how those positions are related to the position of the satellite system on the moon.

But personally, I don't think Doube X would rely on its cannons for this match. So I guess Wing Zero has a slight advantage with its Zero System unless Double X has a G-Bit system (or whatever they're called), once agan I can't remember.

[SNT1]

Double X does NOT have flash system.

Originally Posted by mahq

The Double X was a great improvement over its GX-9900 Gundam X predecessor. It mounted a much more powerful twin satellite cannon, as well as improved hyper beam swords and a wide variety of hand armaments. However, one critical difference between the Double X and the GX was its lack of a flash system; instead, the recorded brainwaves of Jamil Neate - stored in the computer of his wrecked original Gundam X which was recovered by the New UNE - were recorded in the Double X's control computer, allowing a non-Newtype pilot to activate the satellite system and fire the Double X's twin satellite cannon.

That being said, I doubt a slow-firing cannon satellite cannon of doom would be able to do much in a 1v1 situation. Likewise, TBR at full colony-pounding blast would be of little use too.

WZ can still use TBR as two rapid-fire beam rifle of sorts; Garrod would only have one beam rifle, so on medium range I would say WZ has the advantage.

They seem to have similar close range capabilities (2 sabers and some machine cannons), so again its a toss up there.

Too many random and/or equal factors to truly decide the outcome, although I think WZ has a slight advantage.

[4Tran]

I'm less interested in which mobile suit will win as I am in what arguments can be made about them.

Originally Posted by monstert

It may depend on (among other factors) how those positions are related to the position of the satellite system on the moon.

Correct. But which position will give Double the greatest advantage, the greatest disadvantage, and why?

Originally Posted by monstert

But personally, I don't think Doube X would rely on its cannons for this match. So I guess Wing Zero has a slight advantage with its Zero System unless Double X has a G-Bit system (or whatever they're called), once agan I can't remember.

Double X cannot use bits (and even if it could, they'd be disallowed for the purposes of this duel). Why wouldn't Double X use it's twin satellite cannon? And what advantage does the Zero system confer?

Originally Posted by SNT1

That being said, I doubt a slow-firing cannon satellite cannon of doom would be able to do much in a 1v1 situation. Likewise, TBR at full colony-pounding blast would be of little use too.

Why would either of the weapons be ineffective?

Originally Posted by SNT1

WZ can still use TBR as two rapid-fire beam rifle of sorts; Garrod would only have one beam rifle, so on medium range I would say WZ has the advantage.

They seem to have similar close range capabilities (2 sabers and some machine cannons), so again its a toss up there.

I believe that you missed out on Double X's missiles. Would they or the vulcans play any role in this duel? How effective would be the mobile suits' armor be against it's foe? By the way, which mobile suit is faster?

Originally Posted by SNT1

Too many random and/or equal factors to truly decide the outcome, although I think WZ has a slight advantage.

What random factors need to be taken into account? Like all versus debates (except for the most lopsided ones), we're not trying to figure out if one side has an absolute certainty of winning. Instead, it's more important to look at the advantages and disadvantages of the combatants, and figure out how much they will impact the duel. The most we could hope for is a percentage like, "mobile suit X is likely to win Y% of the time".

[SNT1]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Why would either of the weapons be ineffective?

Its not stated what range they start, but the TSC takes too long to charge up, leaving the DX easy picking for Heero's saber or a quick TBR counter. The TBR, like I said, suffers a little bit less from this problem since it can be used like normal beam rifles. It's also worth noting that Zechs/Heero never used TBR's full blast against enemies that are just as agile (Epyon, Nataku). I think I can safely assume that the DX should be right along Epyon and Nataku in terms of MS performance.... TSC/TBR full blast may be of use when they start seeing on their radar/ZERO system, but I doubt either pilots will rely on it.

Not a response to me, but meh

Originally Posted by 4Tran

And what advantage does the Zero system confer?

the ZERO system can easily analyze the basic capabilities of an MS upon seeing it on radar. Zechs in WZ did this against the Epyon. Might not be the key to winning, but its definitely an advantage, especially if said system is mastered.

The GW narrator says the system "eliminates the pilot's fears and doubts; making him the ultimate warrior." Take it for what it's worth; Its not just a system that feeds the pilot enemy analysis, it turns them into a ghetto NT/SEED mode of the sorts

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I believe that you missed out on Double X's missiles. Would they or the vulcans play any role in this duel? How effective would be the mobile suits' armor be against it's foe? By the way, which mobile suit is faster?

They probably would; aside from CE, machine cannons and vulcans are very useful in melee combat. Gundanium/AW Luna Titanium may not succumb so easily, but who knows, they can bust an MS eye with a potshot or something. Missiles I'm not so sure, as they are easily countered by beam rifles in most series (read: Tallgeese takes out Aires missiles with the dobergun, I bet TBR and DX's rifle can do the same)

I have no idea which MS is faster, I'm assuming they are about equal, with WZ slightly leading because its cooler looking

Originally Posted by 4Tran

What random factors need to be taken into account

which episodes to look at. Sometimes said armor get blown up by weapon A, sometimes they don't; What the pilot's conditions are; who gets lucky, which are higher performance, hmm, guess I should've worded it 'unknown/random' factors instead of random.

That being said, I will say I am leaning on WZ to have combat advantage, but I'm open to change my mind if I see a good response.