Macross Frontier - Vajra discussion

[Anh_Minh]

And do you believe Leon?

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And do you believe Leon?

I see no reason why he'd lie to Alto. Or Mr. Briller for that matter. Thankfully the authorities don't seem to have taken a particular interest in the love triangle, and I'd say it's too late to start now. Bullshitting Alto, a lowly fighter pilot, would serve no purpose whatsoever, and hopefully Leon is too busy to do so just to be a dick.

He might be wrong about Vajra, but considering what little we know about it, and it's behavior in this last episode, it's what I'm going on right now.

[Anh_Minh]

Precisely because we know so little about them, "they've been using Ranka for whatever" is going out on a limb a bit. If anyone's used Ranka against another species, here, it's Leon.

The Vajra may or may not be nefarious, and they may or may not be using Ranka to their ends... but we have damn little to determine that. And Leon's speeches do not qualify as evidence.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Precisely because we know so little about them, "they've been using Ranka for whatever" is going out on a limb a bit. If anyone's used Ranka against another species, here, it's Leon.

Yes, I don't see how Vajra is using Ranka in a way to undermine Humantradi in any particular way. Besides maybe the proliferation of Moe. On the other hand, why lie to Alto about it? He already thinks Ranka is a traitor, and probably delievered the news to the authorities himself personally, and it simply seems more likely that Leon is giving his honest opinion, as a PR campaign to smear Ranka and Vajra would not involve a personal meeting with Alto.

The Vajra may or may not be nefarious, and they may or may not be using Ranka to their ends... but we have damn little to determine that. And Leon's speeches do not qualify as evidence.

On the contrary. Leon is now President of Frontier, and even if he is a backstabbing, murdering bastard, one would expect him to at least gain an understanding of the enemy their facing. If he says something about Vajra, it's probably based on a logical anaylsis, which is really more to go on than Ranka's gut feelings.

[grss1982]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Yes, I don't see how Vajra is using Ranka in a way to undermine Humantradi in any particular way. Besides maybe the proliferation of Moe. On the other hand, why lie to Alto about it? He already thinks Ranka is a traitor, and probably delievered the news to the authorities himself personally, and it simply seems more likely that Leon is giving his honest opinion, as a PR campaign to smear Ranka and Vajra would not involve a personal meeting with Alto.

You know this has been bothering me for a while when Alto meet Leon, Mr. Bilrer was there, and that line of his about "expecting more/great things from Alto," I was just curios was there suppose to be deeper meaning to it? Or am I just focusing on that line too much.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Yes, I don't see how Vajra is using Ranka in a way to undermine Humantradi in any particular way. Besides maybe the proliferation of Moe. On the other hand, why lie to Alto about it? He already thinks Ranka is a traitor, and probably delievered the news to the authorities himself personally, and it simply seems more likely that Leon is giving his honest opinion, as a PR campaign to smear Ranka and Vajra would not involve a personal meeting with Alto.



On the contrary. Leon is now President of Frontier, and even if he is a backstabbing, murdering bastard, one would expect him to at least gain an understanding of the enemy their facing. If he says something about Vajra, it's probably based on a logical anaylsis, which is really more to go on than Ranka's gut feelings.

"Trust the President, I'm sure he knows what he's doing"? You're really sure you want to go there?

As for why the lie... Why speak to Alto at all? Why did Bilrer ever show him his train collection? As long as we can't answer that, we can't really say "they have no reason to lie".

Heck, maybe Leon is sincerely creeped out by the Vajra's distributed mind, and really does believe everything he said. That would have little to do with "logical analysis".

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

"Trust the President, I'm sure he knows what he's doing"? You're really sure you want to go there?

And you're assuming this because...?

As for why the lie... Why speak to Alto at all? Why did Bilrer ever show him his train collection? As long as we can't answer that, we can't really say "they have no reason to lie".

You're right. Alto is a nobody. Or at least should be a nobody as far as Leon is concerned. This isn't Gundam where kitting out Shinn Asuka in Destiny is somehow supposed to make some monumental, meta-physical difference in how the universe plays out. And there's not even a hint that Leon or Briller are thinking along those things.

Out of universe explaination, the writers just wanted to inform the viewers, and connect the scene where Alto says he'll kill Ranka with that information. There are better ways of informing the viewers and Alto without making Alto out to be more important than he actually is, but let's just assume they were lazy before jumping to the conclusion that Alto is somehow special.

Basically, if Leon is lying, he's lying to the viewers, and lying on behalf of the writers and Director, which is a stupid thing to do, and shouldn't impress anybody if that is the case.

Heck, maybe Leon is sincerely creeped out by the Vajra's distributed mind, and really does believe everything he said. That would have little to do with "logical analysis".

He didn't seem creeped out. More arrogant than anything really.

[ipernorris]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

The Vajra may or may not be nefarious, and they may or may not be using Ranka to their ends... but we have damn little to determine that. And Leon's speeches do not qualify as evidence.

People here write such absurd things sometimes I can't believe my eyes... I mean do you need proof to understand the Vajra are hostile towards humanity? Millions of dead bodies and millions of injuried people aren't enough? Who cares about Vajra's reasons and such: they attacked and massacrated people who didn't even know about their existence and this is more than enough to classify them as an enemy to the humantradis thus deserving annihilation or enslavement.
But here people are too busy worshipping Ranka x Alto or Sheryl x Alto.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

And you're assuming this because...?

Your own words:

Leon is now President of Frontier, and even if he is a backstabbing, murdering bastard, one would expect him to at least gain an understanding of the enemy their facing. If he says something about Vajra, it's probably based on a logical anaylsis,

You're right. Alto is a nobody. Or at least should be a nobody as far as Leon is concerned. This isn't Gundam where kitting out Shinn Asuka in Destiny is somehow supposed to make some monumental, meta-physical difference in how the universe plays out. And there's not even a hint that Leon or Briller are thinking along those things.

Out of universe explaination, the writers just wanted to inform the viewers, and connect the scene where Alto says he'll kill Ranka with that information. There are better ways of informing the viewers and Alto without making Alto out to be more important than he actually is, but let's just assume they were lazy before jumping to the conclusion that Alto is somehow special.

Basically, if Leon is lying, he's lying to the viewers, and lying on behalf of the writers and Director, which is a stupid thing to do, and shouldn't impress anybody if that is the case.

Let's say Leon has a reason to want to stiffen Alto's spine, so he'll kill Ranka without hesitation. Instead of, you know, talk to her and convince her to come back. Which is pretty much what he's told Luca he'd do. Then that lie makes perfect sense. Sure, he probably ratted her out himself, because he was hurt, confused, and angry. But now that he's cooled down... Can he be trusted to shoot her? But, if the Vajra are using her... Then he's not some kind of jerk for killing the cute girl who had a crush on him, for failing to convince her to say, or convince her to come back. It's not his fault, and it's not hers, either. He doesn't have to talk, he just has to shoot - it's practically a mercy killing. Instead of feeling guilty, he's a hero again, saving a damsel in distress from a fate worse than death. Woo.

That works both in-story and out-of-story. (Except for the bit about Leon giving a damn in the first place.)

He didn't seem creeped out. More arrogant than anything really.

But he went from "distributed mind" to "must kill". Not very rational, to me. So maybe to him, being creeped out translates to genocidal intent. Who knows?

Originally Posted by ipernorris

People here write such absurd things sometimes I can't believe my eyes... I mean do you need proof to understand the Vajra are hostile towards humanity? Millions of dead bodies and millions of injuried people aren't enough? Who cares about Vajra's reasons and such: they attacked and massacrated people who didn't even know about their existence and this is more than enough to classify them as an enemy to the humantradis thus deserving annihilation or enslavement.
But here people are too busy worshipping Ranka x Alto or Sheryl x Alto.

I didn't say they weren't hostile. Note, however, that to a distributed mind like them, killing lots of individuals may be the equivalent of a light slap - a perfectly proportioned response, saying "Don't come here. It's my/our territory".

There's also the problem of "who shot first". I'd have problems calling them evil if the humans came into their homes, destroyed or captured them, and they just defended themselves.

And lastly, the question was whether Ranka is a weapon the Vajra have been using, or plan to use, against humanity. Even accepting the Vajra as the enemy, which admittedly isn't much a stretch, it doesn't mean Ranka is in any way under their control, usable by them.

[Paul Hausser]

The whole argument reminds me of "Ender's Game", seriously, especially the hive mind vs. individuality problem. Also, do remember how the war between Humans and Taurans happened in Haldeman's "Forever War" - by means of misunderstanding and belligerence on Human side.

Add shadowy machinations courtesy of diese Hure O'Connor, and we might find ourselves mired in a war Galaxy started and Frontier must finish.

[Anh_Minh]

Yep, we've read the same books.

[BetoJR]

I've been seeing some parallels to that, myself, for a while, now. Guess we've all read the same books, then.

[ipernorris]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I didn't say they weren't hostile. Note, however, that to a distributed mind like them, killing lots of individuals may be the equivalent of a light slap - a perfectly proportioned response, saying "Don't come here. It's my/our territory".

They can have a p2p mind, but it isn't an excuse or a justification to what they did to Frontier...

There's also the problem of "who shot first". I'd have problems calling them evil if the humans came into their homes, destroyed or captured them, and they just defended themselves.

If the Research Fleet made something bad to the Vajra then they deserved to be killed, but this has nothing to do with Frontier. Anyway Ranka said, in episode 23 while remembering the Research Fleet's fall, "evreyone, because of me..."
I fear it all happened with an even along the lines of Ranka being sad about not having a candy and thinking "you hurt me, you mamas are very bad!" and so the Vajra attacked...
The "Who shot first" problem is irrelevant from Frontier's POV: the Vajra massacrated millions of people so that problem is not important anymore. Ranka can sing Aimo Aimo as much as she likes, but that song isn't going to bring back the lost lifes. Of course this simple consideration would shoot down the entire Macross message of living happily among different species in the universe so this issue won't be taken into account by the authors.

And lastly, the question was whether Ranka is a weapon the Vajra have been using, or plan to use, against humanity. Even accepting the Vajra as the enemy, which admittedly isn't much a stretch, it doesn't mean Ranka is in any way under their control, usable by them.

Ranka is naive at best: she thinks she can bring peace with the two species just with her Aimo Aimo song. The irreparable damage, the millions of lost lifes, has been done and it isn't reversible. Please note that the Vajra doesn't have the concept of "individual" so they don't even notice the death of one of their own...
So the humantradi's toll in this war has been way higher than the Vajra's one.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by ipernorris

They can have a p2p mind, but it isn't an excuse or a justification to what they did to Frontier...

What I'm trying to explain is that they may not understand what they did. That to them, something like that isn't "irreparable damage".

If the Research Fleet made something bad to the Vajra then they deserved to be killed, but this has nothing to do with Frontier.

Yes, because the human have been making a real effort to distinguish between different Vajras.

Anyway Ranka aid, in episode 23 while remembering the Research Fleet's fall, "evreyone, because of me..."
I fear it all happened with an even along the lines of Ranka being sad about not having a candy and thinking "you hurt me, you mamas are very bad!" and so the Vajra attacked...
The "Who shot first" problem is irrelevant from Frontier's POV: the Vajra massacrated millions of people so that problem is not important anymore.

Yes. But see, I never said the Vajra and Frontier weren't enemies. I just said it was possible the Vajra weren't evil. Why do I have to look at it only from Frontier's POV?

It's not like the humans have been all that nice. They did go out of their way to destroy Vajra nests. You could turn it around and say there's no way for the Vajra to forgive the humans, either.

Ranka can sing Aimo Aimo as much as she likes, but that song isn't going to bring back the lost lifes. Of course this simple consideration would shoot down the entire Macross message of living happily among different species in the universe so this issue won't be taken into account by the authors.


Ranka is naive at best: she thinks she can bring peace with the two species just with her Aimo Aimo song. The irreparable damage, the millions of lost lifes, has been done and it isn't reversible.

But she's accused of much worse than naivety. She's accused of being a weapon the Vajras have turned against humanity. But where's the proof?

Please note that the Vajra doesn't have the concept of "individual" so they don't even notice the death of one of their own...
So the humantradi's toll in this war has been way higher than the Vajra's one.

We don't know what they do or don't notice. And losing more people (a questionable statement to start with) doesn't make the humans right.

[ipernorris]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

What I'm trying to explain is that they may not understand what they did. That to them, something like that isn't "irreparable damage".

Yes, because the human have been making a real effort to distinguish between different Vajras.

Decide about your own position: when you talk abou the Vajra you say the Vajra may not understand individuality because they are a collective, when you talk about humantradis you say they're bad because they should differentiate between Vajra, beings which are a collective for their own nature. Besides why should human differentiate between Vajra? There hasn't been ONE Vajra who wasn't hostile to humantradis, included the dear Ai-kun.

Yes. But see, I never said the Vajra and Frontier weren't enemies. I just said it was possible the Vajra weren't evil. Why do I have to look at it only from Frontier's POV?

You can use the POV you like but it isn't relevant anymore... at this point the millions of deaths scream revenge over the collective. Even if Vajra have only ONE mind and so ONE will this doesn't change the fact this will acted to massacre the humantradis.

It's not like the humans have been all that nice. They did go out of their way to destroy Vajra nests. You could turn it around and say there's no way for the Vajra to forgive the humans, either.

Well those nice puppies would have go to kill more humantradi's lifes, so those actions were justified.

But she's accused of much worse than naivety. She's accused of being a weapon the Vajras have turned against humanity. But where's the proof?

Ask Leon about that...
Anyway Ranka's role is irrelevant at this point: what Vajra's had done is plainly unforgivable. Humantradis did some bad things to Vajra as well I believe, but the key difference is that the humantradis which "shot first" were an insignificant part of the whole humantradi's race, while the Vajra, having ONE will, are all guilty of the massacre they're carring out.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by ipernorris

Decide about your own position: when you talk abou the Vajra you say the Vajra may not understand individuality because they are a collective, when you talk about humantradis you say they're bad because they should differentiate between Vajra, beings which are a collective for their own nature. Besides why should human differentiate between Vajra? There hasn't been ONE Vajra who wasn't hostile to humantradis, included the dear Ai-kun.

The humans didn't know the Vajra were one (in fact, we can't be sure there aren't several swarms which each have their own individuality...) when they wrote the "shoot all the Vajra on sight" policy. All I'm saying is, the humans didn't try any harder than the Vajra to get along.

You can use the POV you like but it isn't relevant anymore... at this point the millions of deaths scream revenge over the collective. Even if Vajra have only ONE mind and so ONE will this doesn't change the fact this will acted to massacre the humantradis.

And the human acted to massacre the Vajra.

Well those nice puppies would have go to kill more humantradi's lifes, so those actions were justified.

And those humans supported, or would have supported, had they grown, a fleet that is apparently bent on the destruction or exploitation of the Vajra.

Ask Leon about that...
Anyway Ranka's role is irrelevant at this point: what Vajra's had done is plainly unforgivable. Humantradis did some bad things to Vajra as well I believe, but the key difference is that the humantradis which "shot first" were an insignificant part of the whole humantradi's race, while the Vajra, having ONE will, are all guilty of the massacre they're carring out.

Oh? And when have the humans tried to think "Oh, maybe the Vajra have different factions, maybe we were caught by a criminal minority and should appeal to the Vajra authorities to deal with them..." No, it was, from the get go, "them or us". Why would the Vajra think in more complicated terms? Especially since they may have much less experience with such things?

[Ithekro]

Well. This is Macross.

Human and alien relations as far back as the First Space War.

Millions (to billions) or humans and aliens dead in the exchange. Peace finally had after much suffering and the realization that revenge will only result in more suffering for both sides and probably the extinction of both sides. Peace through the power of song and love if I remember correctly. But also peace because the alternative was death for all involved...genocide.

If this show follows this pattern, then there will be peace after a hard fight with a lot of dead. When the bloodlust of revenge fades, the truth (whatever that may be) will surface. The remains of the Frontier Fleet and the Vajra will have to work together to survive. The alternative is the eratication of all Vajra and/or all humanoid life on Frontier (and Galaxy).

As for Leon and Alto. If Leon has any kind of spy network, he knows that Alto has spend a lot of time with the two singing "weapons". Thus Alto can effect the weapons performance. If Alto attempts to bring Ranka back, this will go against Leon's goals (be that galactic domination or simply saving humanity from the Vajra), thus it seems reasonable that someone in authority would attempt to make Alto's resolve solid on the kill Ranka front. As for Leon lying? He's a politian right? In such a profession, if one is to tell a lie to the entire population, then you had better keep your lies the same even when you are talking to just one lowly individual. It is like a lie that is repeated enough times that people start to believe it, territory.

However the battle will be glorious if we get multiple Macross combat.

EDIT: In the games, were the VF-X prototypes versions of existing fighters rather than entirely new designs?

[Anh_Minh]

Then, what I want to see in the end: some giant insect in an idol dress singing to humans to successfully pacify them... Why should it always be the humans who get that kind of nice role?

[Wesley84]

Ranka could always molt. Suddenly realises it's her 18th birthday and then something out of the X-Files happens.

[ipernorris]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

The humans didn't know the Vajra were one (in fact, we can't be sure there aren't several swarms which each have their own individuality...) when they wrote the "shoot all the Vajra on sight" policy. All I'm saying is, the humans didn't try any harder than the Vajra to get along.

The fact they're one mind is irrelevant: they destroyed a potential danger to Frontier because Vajra are the one which attacked frontier first. The fact they're one mind only worsens Vajra's position because it means there aren't any faction within the Vajra but only one will.

And the human acted to massacre the Vajra.

I think you don't know what self defense mean...
Those Vajra would have grown and go straight to Frontier in order to attack it.

And those humans supported, or would have supported, had they grown, a fleet that is apparently bent on the destruction or exploitation of the Vajra.

Well the Vajra are the enemy so what's so bad about exploiting them taking fold quartz from them? At least they're useful to something...

Oh? And when have the humans tried to think "Oh, maybe the Vajra have different factions, maybe we were caught by a criminal minority and should appeal to the Vajra authorities to deal with them..." No, it was, from the get go, "them or us". Why would the Vajra think in more complicated terms? Especially since they may have much less experience with such things?

So far humans mainly defended themselves from the Vajra: the fact the Vajra have one mind only make all of them the same. They're all guilty of trying to massacre Frontier so they can all be annihilated without the faction problem.