Macross Frontier - Episode 19 Discussion / Poll

[magnuskn]

I don´t think I can add anything to what Swampy and Mai said to rebut Kilroys post, but well done, people.

Sheryl is very far from being a egotistical person. You completely misread her in this regard.

[kilroy0097]

Hey I just don't think Sheryl is as strong as everyone thinks she is. I really can't see how you guys believe that before she got sick she wasn't egotistical. It's seems rather plain as day to me. Aren't most super stars rather full of themselves? My viewpoint of Sheryl is as a normal human being that actually has weaknesses and is not as perfect as you guys really seem to want to paint her as. Let me say first before you guys bite my head off that I do actually like Sheryl as a character but I also like Ranka and the rest of the cast with exception of Alto. I really don't like Alto's character at all.

As for the dialog said while Sheryl was in the kimono I admit my Japanese sucks so I missed a lot of that. So I stand corrected on whatever insight was given there that I obviously missed. In fact I probably missed a few more key points in the dialog later on. So before I debate or rebut my points I will err on the side of caution and wait for the first fansub to come out so I can better understand what was actually said. Cool?

[Tak]

Originally Posted by kilroy0097

Hey I just don't think Sheryl is as strong as everyone thinks she is.

She isn't. For one thing, she is definitely not strong enough to shed her "I am SHERYL NOME" mask.

Originally Posted by kilroy0097

I really can't see how you guys believe that before she got sick she wasn't egotistical.

And she has an ego, but thats all she has, and what she relied on through her rise and fall. Yet, behind her mask is actually someone who cares a whole lot about the people who she associates with. Her relationship with Ranka had been one of support. She offered spiritual as well as material support for Ranka. But guess what happened, say, in this episode? With Ranka's "OMG" expression as Sheryl fell into Alto's arms as if the latter belonged to in a relationship with Ranka already.

And I really didn't like her showing off in the hospital scene.

Originally Posted by kilroy0097

It's seems rather plain as day to me. Aren't most super stars rather full of themselves? My viewpoint of Sheryl is as a normal human being that actually has weaknesses and is not as perfect as you guys really seem to want to paint her as.

I don't think many of us believe Sheryl is perfect, in fact, a lot of us acknowledge that she is weak in many aspects.

Originally Posted by kilroy0097

Let me say first before you guys bite my head off that I do actually like Sheryl as a character but I also like Ranka and the rest of the cast with exception of Alto. I really don't like Alto's character at all.

Alto done many things for Sheryl, but he is a cautious one. Moreover, he does not know how to act properly in front of Sheryl, and its not his fault. After all, Sheryl is consciously trying to push him away due to her poor health. One cannot blame Alto for not knowing what really is going on.

- Tak

[Mughi]

Originally Posted by MaiHikari

Sheryl has already declared war during the sing-off at the hospital. Everyone knew she was serious about Alto except for the guy himself. If Ranka really sees herself as the underdog then she wouldn't automatically assume the arrow as a love confession, without considering that Sheryl is still a threat. No one doubts that she was heart broken, but they're questioning if she sees anything else beyond herself and Alto. Even her search for Ai-kun was short-lived. Heck, if my dog was missing, I'd be searching everywhere, posting his picture in every corner, and wouldn't stop worrying until I bring him home. Hence, Ranka's relationship with everything else besides Alto was very shallow.

I feel like peeps who want to vilify Ranka keep nagging on about the arrow through the heart... I can't agree at all that Ranka is shallow and wrong in her presumption about what it meant... (Naive, yes, but that's different from shallow.) It was a HUGE heart with her NAME UNDER IT fer crissakes! So she thinks, "As I thought (or hoped) Alto" Should she have considered that maybe Mihail or Luca was the one sending her a REALLY BIG valentine in the sky? Nothing so selfish about it, regardless of whether she thought she was the underdog or not. Aside from the duet/duel between the two girls at the Hospital, Ranka has had Alto make statements to defuse her suspicions about Sheryl's involvement with him. In pretty much every instance where Ranka has asked about Sheryl, Alto has denied or obfuscated the fact that, well, yeah, he WAS there with Sheryl... It doesn't mean he was clear on his feelings, but he's lead Ranka to believe that there's nothing going on between he and Sheryl.

And maybe she SHOULD be more panicked about her lost pet. (I know I would be, just like you...) But she had JUST finished her concert, and who better to have help you in looking for your pet again than the guy you love. Especially if he just drew a HUGE-O heart in the sky for you! Better to go get him now while its all still fresh and "of the moment." Besides, if you were Alto and HAD just confessed YOUR love, wouldn't you be waiting for your (new) girlfriend to come running instead of ditching you to look for her weird green, illegal alien pet?

No, the movie only got her as far as a solicitation from a manager. She still had to stand in the streets to pass out flyers. She didn't become a hit sensation until the broadcast of her singing on Galia 4.

I agree with Kilroy, Ranka's star was on the rise from the movie, on. The flyers & carrots are all part of paying one's dues. Presumably she was being paid for her singing. Thats the start on the road to success. Karaoke in the streets isn't. Yes, she didn't "hit" until Galia IV, but she was already well on her way because the Galia IV incident preempted her debut concert... Hence the Zentradi excitement over her arrival...

Japanese have a custom of passing down kimono from generation to generation because it was such a valuable clothing. They also have a custom of giving kimono to guests who are staying at their residence (especially if they didn't bring their own change of clothing in the rain). Room of the deceased are not usually forbidden. They are often well kept and used as guest-rooms, although I wouldn't put it past Alto's brother to consciously decide putting Sheryl there. Hence, it was not an act of disrespect for her to wear it and be in Alto's mother's room. So it was obvious why Alto wasn't offended by it.

This sort of cultural detail is fascinating stuff that's easy to miss if you aren't aware of it, and is a nice undertone to watching Anime. I was wondering why the room wasn't more like those in-home shrines. This explains a lot. Thank you for clarifying this.

I'm feeling really badly for Sheryl at this point and am hoping she got out more than just that she's got a fatal disease, before the interruption...

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by kilroy0097

Hey I just don't think Sheryl is as strong as everyone thinks she is. I really can't see how you guys believe that before she got sick she wasn't egotistical. It's seems rather plain as day to me. Aren't most super stars rather full of themselves? My viewpoint of Sheryl is as a normal human being that actually has weaknesses and is not as perfect as you guys really seem to want to paint her as. Let me say first before you guys bite my head off that I do actually like Sheryl as a character but I also like Ranka and the rest of the cast with exception of Alto. I really don't like Alto's character at all.

You seem to be projecting personal distaste at the egotism of super stars onto Sheryl.

Everybody has a ego of some sorts. But being "egotistical" is something different.
Here is the Wikipedia entry on egotism:

Egotism is the motivation to maintain and enhance favorable views of self. Egotism means placing oneself at the center of one's world with no direct concern for others.

It is closely related to narcissism, or "loving one's self," and the possible tendency to speak or write of oneself boastfully and at great length. Egotism may coexist with delusions of one's own importance, at the denial of others. This conceit is a character trait describing a person who acts to gain values in an amount excessively greater than that which he/she gives to others. Egotism is often accomplished by exploiting the altruism, irrationality and ignorance of others, as well as utilizing coercive force and/or fraud.

Sheryl has quite a big ego, as she saw herself as a self-made star, which gave her the god-like confidence we Sheryl fans adore so much.

Nonetheless, she is capable of seeing things from other persons viewpoints, is capable of selfless sacrifice and tries to comfort her friends.

And, importantly, she has stayed true to these maxims during the entire series. If at the beginning she came off as rather high-strung, it is because she didn´t know the other protagonists yet, and she had to have her shields up, as other people treated her as "Sheryl Nome" the super star. Which normally means those people want to exploit you in some manner.


Ironically, it is Ranka, the supposed humble character, who could rather be read as egotistical and self-centered. She is projecting all her personal growth on Alto, to the exclusion of everyone else. Her fans, her other friends, her manager ( Elmo )... it is all a shadow in relation about her crush on Alto.

It doesn´t matter to her that the very survival of Frontier and everyone on it is threatened, as long as she gets Alto.


As for Alto, I think that internally he already has gone with Sheryl as his choice, but he doesn´t want to hurt Rankas feelings, because she is a dear friend to him.

Contrary to other peoples opinions, I think he really noticed that both girls love him in episode 12, not in 15. But he has held off on making a choice, because events around him conspire against it and he doesn´t want to hurt the losing girl.

Of course next episode could prove me wrong, but I´d puke if he really chooses Ranka over Sheryl.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Mughi

I feel like peeps who want to vilify Ranka keep nagging on about the arrow through the heart... I can't agree at all that Ranka is shallow and wrong in her presumption about what it meant... (Naive, yes, but that's different from shallow.)

I don't think it is a case of vilifying Ranka, but rather, a case of pointing out her naiveness throughout the entire series. Never mind that she looks younger in every passing episode, but her inability to get a clue amongst the greater event of things may cause some irritation amongst us.

She acquired her stardom yes, but she expressed nearly no responsibility for that stardom. An idol with the ability to save worlds holds a special place in the Macross universe, unfortunately for Ranka, she'd rather be playing with her brother than acting as an encouragement to the people, who I need not remind you flooded the streets just to see her. Alas, I cannot blame her for it, after all, she is but a child!

- Tak

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Mughi

Especially if he just drew a HUGE-O heart in the sky for you!

He didn´t. So, Klan better watch out for Michael, because he *clearly*, according to you, has his eyes on Ranka. Meow! Cat fight!

[Mughi]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

He didn´t. So, Klan better watch out for Michael, because he *clearly*, according to you, has his eyes on Ranka. Meow! Cat fight!

I'm not sure whether you are simply playing around. Which is cool... Or are reading my posts incorrectly, which is unfortunate.

[MaiHikari]

Originally Posted by Mughi

I feel like peeps who want to vilify Ranka keep nagging on about the arrow through the heart... I can't agree at all that Ranka is shallow and wrong in her presumption about what it meant... (Naive, yes, but that's different from shallow.) It was a HUGE heart with her NAME UNDER IT fer crissakes! So she thinks, "As I thought (or hoped) Alto" Should she have considered that maybe Mihail or Luca was the one sending her a REALLY BIG valentine in the sky?

First, the arrow wasn't the only thing indicating her shallowness. It was mentioned before that Ranka didn't bother to thank anyone else for being kind and supportive of her. Her singing was only for Alto?! All he said was "do what you like" when she said she wanted everyone to hear her sing. While her fans and Nanase has been rooting for her all these time. What about all the work that Elmo did for her before she discarded him? And what about Brera who had been protecting her?

Second, in the world of Macross, when there's a concert, pilots would often provide the visual entertainment stunts and hype up the fans. The *heart* Ranka and arrow were prechoreographed. That's probably common knowledge to the populace but conveniently forgotten by Ranka.

And maybe she SHOULD be more panicked about her lost pet. (I know I would be, just like you...) But she had JUST finished her concert, and who better to have help you in looking for your pet again than the guy you love. Especially if he just drew a HUGE-O heart in the sky for you! Better to go get him now while its all still fresh and "of the moment." Besides, if you were Alto and HAD just confessed YOUR love, wouldn't you be waiting for your (new) girlfriend to come running instead of ditching you to look for her weird green, illegal alien pet?

I was talking about during the parade and before the concert. She was having fun with Brera and forgot about her pet.

I agree with Kilroy, Ranka's star was on the rise from the movie, on. The flyers & carrots are all part of paying one's dues. Presumably she was being paid for her singing. Thats the start on the road to success. Karaoke in the streets isn't. Yes, she didn't "hit" until Galia IV, but she was already well on her way because the Galia IV incident preempted her debut concert... Hence the Zentradi excitement over her arrival...

She was on the rise but it wouldn't have happened overnight. Sheryl sang in the time of peace so she had to work very hard to win over fan's favors. She chose to not ditch her fans just after arriving on Frontier from a long trip. And it took her years to build her popularity and hence she was annoyed when people think she got there by luck. I think it would have taken Ranka years too if not for the war against the Vajra and her singing being the primary reason of their victories. BTW, the Zentradi got excited because Ranka's singing stopped the terrorist attack.

This sort of cultural detail is fascinating stuff that's easy to miss if you aren't aware of it, and is a nice undertone to watching Anime. I was wondering why the room wasn't more like those in-home shrines. This explains a lot. Thank you for clarifying this.

You're welcome

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Mughi

I'm not sure whether you are simply playing around. Which is cool... Or are reading my posts incorrectly, which is unfortunate.

I quote:

Originally Posted by Mughi

Especially if he just drew a HUGE-O heart in the sky for you!

You say that Alto did draw the heart in the sky. It was Michael. Hence my comment.

And, yeah, I was kidding. I´m somewhat at a loss how the post can be interpreted as being serious. Maybe I need to put a "THIS IS A JOKE!" sign behind anything like that? I thought putting a to it would suffice...

[KiNA]

Originally Posted by Mughi

I feel like peeps who want to vilify Ranka keep nagging on about the arrow through the heart... I can't agree at all that Ranka is shallow and wrong in her presumption about what it meant... (Naive, yes, but that's different from shallow.) It was a HUGE heart with her NAME UNDER IT fer crissakes! So she thinks, "As I thought (or hoped) Alto" Should she have considered that maybe Mihail or Luca was the one sending her a REALLY BIG valentine in the sky? Nothing so selfish about it, regardless of whether she thought she was the underdog or not. Aside from the duet/duel between the two girls at the Hospital, Ranka has had Alto make statements to defuse her suspicions about Sheryl's involvement with him. In pretty much every instance where Ranka has asked about Sheryl, Alto has denied or obfuscated the fact that, well, yeah, he WAS there with Sheryl... It doesn't mean he was clear on his feelings, but he's lead Ranka to believe that there's nothing going on between he and Sheryl.

Oh please .... /facepalm .. goddamn I'm into the red paying all these facepalm credits ..

If it was a Sheryl's concert and Alto's goes up there and painted Ranka's name up there, you guys have every right to brag for it. You really think there's any other freaking name up there that Alto and crew can use at that moment?

[Mughi]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I quote:



You say that Alto did draw the heart in the sky. It was Michael. Hence my comment.

Sorry, I didn't. I wrote:

>>It was a HUGE heart with her NAME UNDER IT fer crissakes! So she thinks, "As I thought (or hoped) Alto" Should she have considered that maybe Mihail or Luca was the one sending her a REALLY BIG valentine in the sky?<<

That's a question about what we're shown Ranka LOOKING at, and me wondering if Ranka seeing it through RankaGoggles should have interpreted it differently. I never said that Alto made it. RANKA assumes Alto made it. Please read my posts more carefully. You are being adversarial today.

And, yeah, I was kidding. I´m somewhat at a loss how the post can be interpreted as being serious. Maybe I need to put a "THIS IS A JOKE!" sign behind anything like that? I thought putting a to it would suffice...

And a little rude too...

[Mughi]

Originally Posted by KiNA

Oh please .... /facepalm .. goddamn I'm into the red paying all these facepalm credits ..

If it was a Sheryl's concert and Alto's goes up there and painted Ranka's name up there, you guys have every right to brag for it. You really think there's any other freaking name up there that Alto and crew can use at that moment?

Please see my previous post.

MAN there's hostility in the air today....

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Mughi

Sorry, I didn't. I wrote:

>>It was a HUGE heart with her NAME UNDER IT fer crissakes! So she thinks, "As I thought (or hoped) Alto" Should she have considered that maybe Mihail or Luca was the one sending her a REALLY BIG valentine in the sky?<<

That's a question about what we're shown Ranka LOOKING at, and me wondering if Ranka seeing it through RankaGoggles should have interpreted it differently. I never said that Alto made it. RANKA assumes Alto made it. Please read my posts more carefully. You are being adversarial today.

LOL! Okay, now you edited the post, after I quoted you? Nice going, dude. Nice going.

*edit* Ah, no, actually you wrote what I quoted in another part of the post. Seeing how I was making a joke *and* did clarify on it, you seem to be purposely making a rather big deal about it.

Originally Posted by Mughi

And a little rude too...

Yeah, the truth sometimes is harsh.

[Mughi]

OK... now to get to someone who is having a reasonable discourse:

Originally Posted by MaiHikari

First, the arrow wasn't the only thing indicating her shallowness. It was mentioned before that Ranka didn't bother to thank anyone else for being kind and supportive of her. Her singing was only for Alto?! All he said was "do what you like" when she said she wanted everyone to hear her sing. While her fans and Nanase has been rooting for her all these time. What about all the work that Elmo did for her before she discarded him? And what about Brera who had been protecting her?

I guess I just find it surprising that so many people seem to be aghast at Ranka's behavior... as if it didn't suit her age or character... I'm here to tell you that high schoolers have no clue. The further away from high school you are, the easier it becomes to identify. Not only did I know kids just like this in HS, I still run into these sorts NOW!

If Kawamori is painting this naive HS girl as unaware and blinded by her myopic crush, to the exclusion of most all else, there is a reason for it. You don't have to LIKE it, but it would be at least fair to not expect more from her. I see her doing her best given the circumstances, the information she takes in, and her level of maturity... which ain't high, I think we all agree.

And while I feel much of what you're calling Ranka out on is covered by her naivete, which you see as shallowness (And I don't because that has overtones of forethought and malice.) We did have a scene where she expresses her concern over Elmo and whether this is all fair to him, Grace explains it away, and I guess that was good enough for the writers too. I'm not counting old Elmo out yet. At SOME point, Grace is likely to get her's, and Elmo will probably step over her twisted plastic carcass to take back Ranka's management... assuming she hasn't been assimilated by the bugs.

Second, in the world of Macross, when there's a concert, pilots would often provide the visual entertainment stunts and hype up the fans. The *heart* Ranka and arrow were prechoreographed. That's probably common knowledge to the populace but conveniently forgotten by Ranka.

Precisely... you and I agree on this, but again there's no law against being naive, inexperienced and deluded.

I was talking about during the parade and before the concert. She was having fun with Brera and forgot about her pet.

Oh... OK. My bad understanding.

Well, some people in the countryside shoot their pets and eat them come fall, so while I wouldn't act the same way, I don't know her mores that well... Still, I can't totally condemn her for running out of steam and making the best of the situation as she reacquaints herself with her "brother". Maybe the animators should have made her sulk around, or at least put up flyers while giggling... "Have you seen this Vajra? Big reward!" I don't hate her for it, but she is what she is, until something shocks her enough to change... maybe we're on that cusp now and the writers are putting too a fine point on it.

She was on the rise but it wouldn't have happened overnight. Sheryl sang in the time of peace so she had to work very hard to win over fan's favors. She chose to not ditch her fans just after arriving on Frontier from a long trip.

Yes, Sheryl is a professional, and appearently engineered by Grace to be one... She's all about the marketing.

I think it would have taken Ranka years too if not for the war against the Vajra and her singing being the primary reason of their victories. BTW, the Zentradi got excited because Ranka's singing stopped the terrorist attack.

Agreed, but she has been thrust into this position by sheer luck, or tragedy, depending on whether you have stock in her recording label... But I don't really follow your line of thinking on this. The rush to greatness would only produce a singer who hasn't matured into her role... which is what we are witnessing. Not everyone is Miley Cyrus and has a famous daddy and massive international marketing machine to protect the public from her poor choices. Really this all lays at Grace's feet for not appointing her handlers instead of a cyborg fighter pilot.

And the Zentradi were excited about being her first concert... there is a V.O. of one of the soldiers expressing his disbelief at Ranka showing up so suddenly, (Something like "I thought I wouldn't get to see her" or similar) followed by one passing out when she does her "star pose" and another in a battle suit dancing around. They are all quite taken by her and fairly giddy about it. This is what annoys Qamjin's clone, whatever his name was... to try to kill her and get the fight started again.

Good stuff. Its healthy to clarify these things for a better understanding of the story.

[Mughi]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Yeah, the truth sometimes is harsh.

Back at you chief!

[G1Ace]

come on people
fighting about how shallow ranka is and that her love for alto is shallow is shallow
some might even say that the level of sniping is as shallow as ranka was in this episode

there is talk about a surprise ending

We don't know what that ending is, maybe they just said that to make it more interesting, maybe it will be a surprise ending for us, maybe it would have been a surprise ending if you had only watched episode 1

let's fight about something else, like good old grace, the queen, glass, sweet hugable nanase, klan and what ai kun is doing, and why there were 3 vajra (stage III I guess) in the crowd that for a change weren't attacking everyone
btw, I'm 100% sure ai kun (vajra, stage I) hasn't changed yet into those big yellow vajra, who I think are stage III of the vajra, he'd first have to change into one of those small green walking critters from episode 13 (which I guess is stage II)

[Mughi]

Well, this might be better in a different thread, but I'd be amused (maybe fascinated is a better word) if the Vajra went off on the city because they were connected to Ranka's emotional state... and since she's probably feeling rejected right now....

Shades of Forbidden Planet anyone? Where's Leslie Nielson when you need him!?!?

[MaiHikari]

Originally Posted by Mughi

I guess I just find it surprising that so many people seem to be aghast at Ranka's behavior... as if it didn't suit her age or character... I'm here to tell you that high schoolers have no clue.

Some high schoolers are self-absorbed and immature; but some are mature with hopes to pursue college and are conscientous about their decisions, their friends, their family and their teachers. Maturity does not always go hand in hand with age and unfortunately doesn't always come with age. Some high schoolers are responsible and others are not, to their own credit or discredit. My point is to Ranka's discredit that she's still immature. It's okay for the first 15 eps but showing no growth since the beginning is drawing on the viewers patience. I guess if you watched ep 1-19 in one sitting, eh Ranka's behavior is just borderline annoying. No biggie. But we've suffered 19 weeks of it.

It might have just been the creator's miss, but they didn't do it with other characters and do it so often with Ranka's. May be it's what they wanted us to see so we can go "wow" on her transformation to a woman. I highly doubt that.

Well, some people in the countryside shoot their pets and eat them come fall,

I certainly hope it's not the same country Ranka came from.

Yes, Sheryl is a professional, and appearently engineered by Grace to be one... She's all about the marketing.

Grace didn't engineer a professional. You can't engineer a professional, when you're a pro, you get credit for what you do and chose to do. Why can't Grace engineer Ranka to be responsible to her fans?

I should also point out the difference between responsibility and reactionary. Reposibility indicates taking things around you and formulates your response to it. For example, Sheryl heard that Galaxy was attacked and decided to go back to help her homeland. Whereas reactionary was doing the things that were placed in front of you without really thinking about it. There are many examples in Ranka's behavior, I shouldn't need to point out the obvious. Being responsible is one of the many attributes of being a professional, that it could only come from the subject's conscious decision, and not engineered by another.

Agreed, but she has been thrust into this position by sheer luck, or tragedy, depending on whether you have stock in her recording label... But I don't really follow your line of thinking on this. The rush to greatness would only produce a singer who hasn't matured into her role... which is what we are witnessing.

I was disputing Kilroy's post that Ranka's popularity started with the movie and I pointed out it was really Galia 4. We have digressed.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by G1Ace

come on people
fighting about how shallow ranka is and that her love for alto is shallow is shallow
some might even say that the level of sniping is as shallow as ranka was in this episode

there is talk about a surprise ending

We don't know what that ending is, maybe they just said that to make it more interesting, maybe it will be a surprise ending for us, maybe it would have been a surprise ending if you had only watched episode 1

let's fight about something else, like good old grace, the queen, glass, sweet hugable nanase, klan and what ai kun is doing, and why there were 3 vajra (stage III I guess) in the crowd that for a change weren't attacking everyone
btw, I'm 100% sure ai kun (vajra, stage I) hasn't changed yet into those big yellow vajra, who I think are stage III of the vajra, he'd first have to change into one of those small green walking critters from episode 13 (which I guess is stage II)

I couldn't agree with you more I'm really getting sick of reading all the post by the Ranka haters about how shallow she is when it's so not true and even shallow in it's self to say such things...back to the story please...