(CR) Seikaisuru Kado

[Tenzen12]

Of course you can. Never heard about "Velvet Revolution" for example?

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Of course you can. Never heard about "Velvet Revolution" for example?

That had nothing to do with being ready and a government turn over is a poor comparison to the potential of wam.

[Magewolf]

In a way this makes me think of Harry Turtledove's "the road not taken". In that story mankind manages to miss the simple secret to counter-gravity and spaces warping that most aliens find very early in their development. Of course it is so useful and counterintuitive that it stunts their scientific growth so most aliens are flying around at a 17th century or less tech level. Then they find Earth and the fireworks happen.

Of course here we have a "friendly" alien who is making sure we do not miss it.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by bakato

That had nothing to do with being ready and a government turn over is a poor comparison to the potential of wam.

Of course it did, without laying cushions beforehand system of whole country would crash much harder. And doesn't matter if revolution is industrial or political, because consequences that have to be dealt with are always social anyway.

Unless you think social issues shouldn't be addressed or can't be addressed at all.

[Arya]

Originally Posted by Magewolf

Apart from a lot of dead people what would be the main effect of free wams? As I see it it will end any serious research into power sources and any other research that might have sprouted off from it.

The more I think about it the harder it is to see zaShunina as a positive force.

Yeah, that's what I was kinda thinking too, with or without casualties that would have a local impact anyways, the most relevant change would be power sources researches would more or less die down. To a certain extent it goes close to the says, Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
What zaShunina is doing, is he giving bread to be sheared or will he teach to make bread? As of now he is still following the former, wam technology and understanding is still unreachable and out of this world. It is an approach that tames more than be really positive.
Exaggerating, the logic behind it may follow that he will feed humanity with all his needs so they will cease to fight each other and do reach an idealistic world. But it would be a fake one. And also, at what expenses?

I don't think it will go there but I thought about other two series that dealt with this kind of changes that in their own way directly or indirectly pointed at a humanity drifting from their own nature (I'm talking about Psycho Pass and Shinsekai yori).

It also breaks the law of conservation of energy that states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Of course it can happen since our system is not isolated anymore, thanks to zaShunina shenaningans, but that also means that he is injecting a lot of energy from another system and it is unpredictable to say how it will affect the receiving system since it will reach its limit more sooner than later.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Of course it did, without laying cushions beforehand system of whole country would crash much harder. And doesn't matter if revolution is industrial or political, because consequences that have to be dealt with are always social anyway.

Unless you think social issues shouldn't be addressed or can't be addressed at all.

The technological revolution introduced by the wam will have economic, environmental, and political consequences. Also, the scale is larger. Every country will make different approaches to adapt so its gonna be pretty chaotic for a while.

Fortunately, judging by the preview, it seems Shinawa's origami lesson was a bit difficult for people to follow so governments will have some time to gradually adjust.

Originally Posted by Arya

Yeah, that's what I was kinda thinking too, with or without casualties that would have a local impact anyways, the most relevant change would be power sources researches would more or less die down. To a certain extent it goes close to the says, Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
What zaShunina is doing, is he giving bread to be sheared or will he teach to make bread? As of now he is still following the former, wam technology and understanding is still unreachable and out of this world. It is an approach that tames more than be really positive.
Exaggerating, the logic behind it may follow that he will feed humanity with all his needs so they will cease to fight each other and do reach an idealistic world. But it would be a fake one. And also, at what expenses?

I don't think it will go there but I thought about other two series that dealt with this kind of changes that in their own way directly or indirectly pointed at a humanity drifting from their own nature (I'm talking about Psycho Pass and Shinsekai yori).

It also breaks the law of conservation of energy that states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Of course it can happen since our system is not isolated anymore, thanks to zaShunina shenaningans, but that also means that he is injecting a lot of energy from another system and it is unpredictable to say how it will affect the receiving system since it will reach its limit more sooner than later.

He just taught them to make make wam so I think it's more apt to say they learned how to make their own bread.

How will the world changed by wam be fake? It's perfectly legit.

It's all one system so the law isn't broken and the law of conservation of energy is simply the result of scientific observation.

[Tenzen12]

If course scale is greater, we are talking about greatest revolution in human history after discovery of fire. I hope you don't expect me provide examples of equal importance

But at least you finally admit adjusting is possible if time is given. Decade or two would be better then month or years they will get now.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

If course scale is greater, we are talking about greatest revolution in human history after discovery of fire. I hope you don't expect me provide examples of equal importance

But at least you finally admit adjusting is possible if time is given. Decade or two would be better then month or years they will get now.

I never said it wasn't. I was simply arguing that no amount of preparation beforehand could provide a smooth transition considering the scale and fundamental change wrought by the wam make it impossible to predict all effects it will have on the world. On an economic level, the demand for alternative, green energy sources like solar and wind will vanish and shift to development of electrical power infrastructure. There will be environmental issues from the resulting unrestrained power consumption made possible by the wam. The introduction of a easy, cheap, unlimited, clean energy source will allow for the realization of many technological inventions such as the electric car that in turn will bring many social changes. The geopolitical climate will be much more chaotic. The effects will vary depending on the country and oil-producing countries will be hurt by this. Conflicts, perhaps even wars, will break out. I like to think the rich oil-producing countries being hurt by this will be a good thing since these nations are likely responsible for maintaining a decaying status quo.

My original point was humanity can never be truly prepared for change and that it's not an argument against it.

[Magewolf]

Originally Posted by bakato

He just taught them to make make wam so I think it's more apt to say they learned how to make their own bread.

How will the world changed by wam be fake? It's perfectly legit.

It's all one system so the law isn't broken and the law of conservation of energy is simply the result of scientific observation.

Actually I wonder if they know how to make wams or not. The way wams behave, only outputting enough power to run circuits they are connected to, not frying people who hold the balls in their hands or the objects the wam come into contact with, seems like the work of some kind of oversight program not a hole to another dimension. So all they know how to make might be an antenna not the actual power source.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Magewolf

Actually I wonder if they know how to make wams or not. The way wams behave, only outputting enough power to run circuits they are connected to, not frying people who hold the balls in their hands or the objects the wam come into contact with, seems like the work of some kind of oversight program not a hole to another dimension. So all they know how to make might be an antenna not the actual power source.

I'm pretty sure it checks out physics wise. People don't make great circuits so there'd be very little voltage, if at all. As for adapting to the circuit, I think the fact that the electricity flows from the anisotronic hole would explain it.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by bakato

I'm pretty sure it checks out physics wise. People don't make great circuits so there'd be very little voltage, if at all. As for adapting to the circuit, I think the fact that the electricity flows from the anisotronic hole would explain it.

Just imagine you got a big chunk of copper and just sandwich it with a pair of wam. What would be the effect? Depends on the power it supplies, it could heat up, cook all water around it, destroy every electronic devices around, or simply do nothing. If you take that setting serious, it ends up need to find information on what that circuit is supposed to do.

[Arya]

Originally Posted by bakato

He just taught them to make make wam so I think it's more apt to say they learned how to make their own bread.

I think he actually didn't. He just teach them to build a tool, but with a method that they don't know nothing about, a method they can only automatically repeat. And what about the tool itself, they don't know nothing about how it works. The gap is so wide and the method is so easy that it is like learning a working chanting spell. I mean, a spell that actually works.
It is unchallenging, while providing you all you need. So far is still just like give them bread, IMO.

Originally Posted by bakato

How will the world changed by wam be fake? It's perfectly legit.

That was just me taking this approach to the extreme consequences. What if zaShunina introduced a miraculous tool one after another to the point humanity would not need anything anymore. What will happen to humans without his struggles?

To a lesser degree, look at those boys born with a silver spoon, they have all the want, but they lack the maturity to handle any of it, and they do not grow up well. Apply it to the whole humanity and wait to see the results

Originally Posted by bakato

It's all one system so the law isn't broken and the law of conservation of energy is simply the result of scientific observation.

As far I can tell no, zaShunina is a complete different system with a complete different kind of structure, not just in terms of dimensions. That's why he need a kado. The cube is basically a gate that connects our universe to his. He said it himself. And to do so some kinda of conversion is required. Look at him hugging Shindou. They made it quite clear I think.

So it's breaking the law, he brings in energy, but he didn't explain yet how to unload it. Basically right now he is just inflating (our))their system with outsource energy. And since in their system energy can not be destroyed, something is missing in the whole process zaShunina is presenting them. I'm inclined to think that as far as he won't explain that side of it, this whole deal seems more a staging.

Loosely and without any scientific aim, taking the mass-energy equivalence of Einstein E=mc², if you increase "E" something has to vary also on the other side of the equation.

[monir]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Not an immediate danger. We receive, every year, 5.5E24J from the sun. We consume less than 15000 Mtoe - call it 6E20J. Rather less than a rounding error. And the wam produce no greenhouse gas.

The point I was making is that a technology such as the Wam will have unforeseeable impact on the humanity itself. Few posters have already elaborated on that line of thinking. To argue your numbers for the sake of it, those are still conventional numbers based on the amount of energy consumption in the present time. Once the entire planet start consumption evenly, those numbers, I'm sure, will need to be revised upward by several factor. Give a century or two (or even sooner), and I'm sure humanity can exceed the energy in terms of consumption received from the sun.

Three bottlenecks:
- the ability to discharge that energy quickly (you won't boil the sea with a 1W heater, even if it runs forever)
- the ability to deal with waste heat
- the ability to get the good stuff to deal with problems 1 and 2.

There's still a lot to worry about, but it's more along the lines of "zaShunina decides to kill us all with his alien god powers", "the wam doesn't behave as advertised", or "some country with an actual research program decides to misuse the wam" than "lone crazy makes a bomb in his garage". (Well, you still have to worry about lone crazies, but not more than before the wam.)

Come to think, I don't know if it qualifies as "misuse", but wam-powered anti missile lasers would put the MAD in question.

Also worrying: plentiful energy means people will compete for other resources. Different equilibriums, some countries will have to watch themselves.

As you've already touched on it, geopolitical field will be certainly chaotic as the fossil fuel will quickly lose its appeal. And what about the science itself? Massive revision will follow as the understanding about the Wam grows. Again, a future that can't be foreseen. Look how internet has revolutionized communication, politics, commerce, crime in ways that could not have been imagined even in the early 90's.

When ZaShunina decided to "drop a bomb" he/she/it wasn't saying it figuratively. The change in humanity that to follow is unfathomable. Energy independence is just the tip of the iceberg of change.

[DemonneoPT]

Originally Posted by Arya

So it's breaking the law, he brings in energy, but he didn't explain yet how to unload it. Basically right now he is just inflating (our))their system with outsource energy. And since in their system energy can not be destroyed, something is missing in the whole process zaShunina is presenting them. I'm inclined to think that as far as he won't explain that side of it, this whole deal seems more a staging.

Loosely and without any scientific aim, taking the mass-energy equivalence of Einstein E=mc², if you increase "E" something has to vary also on the other side of the equation.

That was also my doubt. The way the scientist girl made those wams with paper material was way too shady and i highly doubt no one in the world never made a similar form to what she presented before. I believe if the alien and the Kado leaves our dimension that stuff will no longer work..lol

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by bakato

I'm pretty sure it checks out physics wise. People don't make great circuits so there'd be very little voltage, if at all. As for adapting to the circuit, I think the fact that the electricity flows from the anisotronic hole would explain it.

What Alf said, and I think you've got it backwards. Current doesn't pass through us when we touch a low voltage battery because it's low voltage. Touch high tension lines (don't do that!), and current passes all too well.

But the wam is magic. It can be high or low tension, and for all I know AC or DC, depending on need which a simple power supply unit shouldn't be able to detect.

Originally Posted by monir

The point I was making is that a technology such as the Wam will have unforeseeable impact on the humanity itself. Few posters have already elaborated on that line of thinking. To argue your numbers for the sake of it, those are still conventional numbers based on the amount of energy consumption in the present time.

Yes, but my point is that those who worry about wam-induced global warming or wam powered superweapons are worried in the wrong direction. Unless maybe they worry about North Korean nukes mounted on a wam powered propulsion system? Giving it whatever range they want shouldn't be that hard, and they do have engineers. So the question would be, how crazy is Kim Jong Un, really?

Once the entire planet start consumption evenly, those numbers, I'm sure, will need to be revised upward by several factor.

Yes, certainly. But not by four orders of magnitude. Or even one, really. I mean, how much of that energy consumption goes into digging oil up? There's a bunch of things that will pull our energy needs downwards. They won't win out against the desire for a first world lifestyle, but still.

Give a century or two (or even sooner), and I'm sure humanity can exceed the energy in terms of consumption received from the sun.

- we'd cook before reaching that point.
- even if we didn't, it would be a huge task. We'd have to do it intentionally. Some deliberate attempt to make Earth uninhabitable.

As you've already touched on it, geopolitical field will be certainly chaotic as the fossil fuel will quickly lose its appeal.

Changing, not necessarily chaotic.

And what about the science itself? Massive revision will follow as the understanding about the Wam grows. Again, a future that can't be foreseen.

Yeah, well, it never can. That's life.

Look how internet has revolutionized communication, politics, commerce, crime in ways that could not have been imagined even in the early 90's.

Exactly. Shit happens, even without alien gods.

I'm not denying it poses a bunch of questions, big and small (like "in a post-scarcity economy, who picks up the trash?"). But saying "we're not ready" is a bigger call to stagnation than any free energy source could be. And if we accept them, at least we'll be stagnating in relative comfort, rather than in a world where people die because of lack of access to clean water.

[Arya]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yes, certainly. But not by four orders of magnitude. Or even one, really. I mean, how much of that energy consumption goes into digging oil up? There's a bunch of things that will pull our energy needs downwards. They won't win out against the desire for a first world lifestyle, but still.

The fact is that limitless energy resources removes the limits on what you could do due to such limits. Of course all the transport systems would be converted to use wam, space missions would be accessible to everyone. And so, well, why not try to terraform the moon or mars? Same goes for deserts. (yeah, I'm just going randomly) It is not snowing anymore as much as it did before, let's try to force to make it snow on demand reducing the temperature of the local area.
And many applications could born because, well, it's just cool? Do you want to build an ice city right in the middle of the desert, why not. Oh, then I'll recreate a tropical environment close by NY. Levitation, what about levitation? Levitation is cool, so let's product all urban vehicles to levitate. Laser beams? Flying cars? and so on and on.

[Anh_Minh]

Why not? Engineering limits I already explained, that's why. (And terraforming of Luna or Mars don't enter into Earth's energy budget.) And cost. In material and labor. And safety concerns. And nuisance concerns.

[Ghostfriendly]

No one on the Japanese side is even seriously discussing the use of wam in terrorism. I can understand ZaShunina not getting this, but does the PM think terrorism only exists in movies? The Japanese PM should realistically want to lock down the wam like any other sane head of government, or person, especially as governments could distribute energy to humanity without giving out the wam, slowing and softening the dramatic changes of unlimited energy; another idea which goes completely undiscussed.

The show may be portraying the PM as a visionary, but looks to me as if the arrival of ZaShunina has completely unseated his reason. Rather than negotiating against ZaShunina's alien, unreasonable desire to drop a bomb, he's bending over backwards. His argument that ZaShunina cannot be blamed for giving humanity a technology he does not know if they are ready for is laughable; if the world gets blown up, ZaShunina and humanity will be equally to blame.

If it would be impractical to weaponise the wam for some engineering reason (can anyone think of why it wouldn't be?) Japan needs to tell the world at once; it's the first concern anyone would have. If the wam turn out to have some unknown property, such as that only the pure of heart can make them, that is bad, bad writing. The least bad solution would be if ZaShunina's own powers can detect and shut down any wam used for violent purposes. The UN, having already said that humanity is unfit to control the wam, couldn't then object to that course, and ZaShunina would be fulfilling his responsibility to ensure his gifts do more good than harm.

In miscellaneous objections; the UN does not strictly have a military. The bare-chested sergeant saying how he would defend Japan came across as revoltingly self-righteous posturing. I'm liking the female researcher less than I did at the start, and the female negotiator has turned out awfully; her role thus far is to be huffy, look foolish and have nice legs. The relationship between Shindo and ZaShunina, potentially a very interesting one, has been kept entirely at surface level.

I'm liking this anime less and less, as you can probably tell, but sadly I'll probably keep watching to see if the final solution is surprisingly good, or lame.

[DemonneoPT]

I also agree the characters are the weakest point of the show so far...

[Arya]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Why not? Engineering limits I already explained, that's why. (And terraforming of Luna or Mars don't enter into Earth's energy budget.) And cost. In material and labor. And safety concerns. And nuisance concerns.

Well, nothing I listed is out of hand even right now, so I don't see much limits in that regard. In any case the point is that having something limitless change the way of thinking so you have to take into account scenario like that while trying to figure out the possible increase of power consumption.

In any case this would be a more serious problem if they intend to take into account the law of conservation of energy otherwise it may or may not.