2011-08-30, 10:40 | Link #24001 |
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Join Date: May 2009
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It doesn't really make a lot of sense that Krauss and to a lesser extent Hideyoshi's supposed deaths aren't considered essential topics in the trial, but that whole trial was ridiculous and if I weren't neck-deep in something else I'd write a trial forgery that follows some actual goddamn legal rules. Arguably, Erika doesn't even have to care who killed (or "killed") those two, as she can still press that Natsuhi was the only possible culprit for the first set of murders. That would obviously mean there's still a killer running around, but I guess Erika doesn't care.
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2011-08-30, 17:27 | Link #24002 | ||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Now that I remember, Erika did make use of some reds to pin Natsuhi (ones that didn't even have to do with Krauss's death):
Spoiler:
It's funny to think of what Erika would do if she was forced to accept that Natsuhi wasn't the culprit; would she have to concede the existance of witches? Quote:
You're close, but it's not about people lying about things they know to be true; it's about trust in things without certain proof. So in the context of lying, the Gold Truth is generated by the fooled, not the fooler (well, not directly anyway). For example, Will's reference to the "Golden Truth" that locked the chapel in episode 2 isn't talking about how a group of people conspired to fabricate a story*, but how Battler was convinced that the door was truly locked. *In this instance I'm skeptical that anyone on Rokkenjima even fabricated the story to begin with, since after the patently bogus scene where the door is opened no one ever mentions it again; no one ever says to Battler that it was locked. And here's a basic example of how Red vs. Gold works: Gold>Red when: "You can't prove that.", "But I believe it because it's common sense." Red>Gold when: "You can't prove that.", "But I believe it because it's more fun that way." And I suppose the reason gamemasters aren't supposed to use Gold too often is because it reveals too much about their true inner heart. Quote:
Erika just wants 2 things: to show off and to fuck with Natsuhi. After that, she doesn't care about anything, including the actual truth. -------------------------------------------------- Random thought: In episode 2, any idea why Rosa wouldn't reveal the fact that Kinzo was dead? It's not like she had any competition left for the inheritance... |
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2011-08-30, 17:56 | Link #24003 | |
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Join Date: May 2009
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I mean, granted, the Witch Hunters apparently really are that stupid.
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2011-08-30, 18:28 | Link #24004 |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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They already believe that she killed Jessica, so what's the big deal about believing she'd kill Krauss too? And how is one of the murders impossible for her? They both seem completely possible to me, so I'm not even sure which one you're referring to.
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2011-08-30, 18:47 | Link #24005 |
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Join Date: May 2009
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If Hideyoshi struggled with his killer/"killer," as depicted, how in the world did Natsuhi overpower and kill him? She's not physically strong enough and there's no apparent evidence of Hideyoshi being incapacitated first. It's physically possible that she could've committed the other murders (everyone was asleep, Krauss may have been restrained, etc.), but expecting Natsuhi to Jeet Kune Do a gigantic man into a position where she can backstab him to death stretches credibility.
It's like blaming Maria. Sure, she might not have any alibi, but how the hell?
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2011-08-30, 19:00 | Link #24007 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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She was speaking on the phone at the time he was killed. It would have been impossible for her unless she was next to him on the phone having a two way conversation with herself while pointing a gun at him. Id be hilarious to see something like that animated
Anyways about the golden truth, I still think its a "truth" made to make someone feel better or to protect them from something that would otherwise hurt them. It kinda makes sense thematically that you can only use it after you learned the truth of what Beatrice was doing. The chapel scene can be explain in two different ways after ep7. Either Rosa was a culprit/accomplice and she lied about the door to give herself an alibi. Or she wasnt and she did it to deflect some suspicion from someone else. Same thing with Kinzo. C/A = She lied so that they didnt know that she was the head, which people would believe is sufficient motive to commit the crime. Or she was lying so that the kids wouldnt know that Krauss and Natsuhi where lying for 2 years now. Spoiler:
Last thing Krauss saw. Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2011-08-30 at 19:46. |
2011-08-30, 20:18 | Link #24008 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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And then of course, there's Rosa, Genji, and Ghoda claiming that Shannon went to Kinzo's study, at the same time Battler witnessed Kanon arriving at the guesthouse. :-/ I believe this might be related to your question of why Rosa didn't just "reveal" Kinzo's death, if she knew of it. Rosa has been portrayed as probably the most pragmatic of the adults - she wants to maximize her gains, and is consistently unwilling to risk murder. The inheritance was probably a pittance to all the gold Yasu had promised her. Quote:
That is just ... the best thing I've seen all week. "UUU~ JUST AS PLANNED!!!" |
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2011-08-30, 22:00 | Link #24010 | |
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Join Date: May 2009
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Plus, Hideyoshi didn't recognize his killer, apparently. Again, if it was Natsuhi he presumably would, unless she changed into an erotic catsuit and balaclava in that closet before busting out to Backstab him harder than a World of Warcraft quest mob.
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2011-08-30, 23:52 | Link #24012 |
Restless Ghost
Join Date: Sep 2010
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I'm sorry for getting out of subject, but a while ago everyone was talking about Sakutarou, and the matter of whether he was handmade by Rosa or not was brought up again.
Well, I was playing Rondo for the first time and I reached that part when ange finds Sakutarou in Kawabata's cellar. In the VN all you could see was a yellow mess, but in Rondo you can clearly see that there's a bag full of Sakutarous, not only one. Doesn't that settle Sakutarou as a mass-produced toy? (And, more importantly, shouldn't Ange be facing copyright issues with her books?) I was just wondering if this had been noticed before. If it has, I apologize. |
2011-08-31, 01:22 | Link #24013 | ||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Rosa's actions in Turn are fishy. I mean on the one hand she clearly lies about locks and such, and about Kinzo, but on the other she doesn't trust her fellow liars. She was eager to blame Kanon for Jessica's murder; does Yasu want that? And she has no clear reason to accuse Battler when she full-well knows that he's innocent, especially after she knows that Yasu is dead. Quote:
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I'll start by pointing out that what Natsuhi viewed is information that the prosecutors don't have (and probably wouldn't believe). The only other witness was Eva, who didn't show up until after the "who are you" part. All she heard was some commotion in the room, and Hideyoshi saying her name once and then nothing intelligible. Hideyoshi was face down on the bed, crying. Natsuhi sneaked up while he wasn't watching and stabbed him in the back. It didn't kill him instantly, so Eva was able to hear Hideyoshi's death throes. Meanwhile, Natsuhi hid in the closet. It's completely plausible. Also, I don't know why you're so focused on those two later murders. There really is no mistake in assuming Natsuhi to be the culprit in Hideyoshi's murder that wasn't already made in the trial of the first twilight. The closed room means that everyone accounted for when it was opened has an alibi. The only people not accounted for were Natsuhi, Krauss, Kinzo, and a person X. It's the exact same alibi situation that the first murders had, so we already know that they'll throw out Krauss, Kinzo, and X, leaving Natsuhi as the only possible culprit. Similarly, fake murders were ignored in the first twilight. As were possibilities of suicide, traps, remote killings, and accidents. Thus with all these bad assumptions already made and Knox's rules enforced, Occam's Razor dictates that Natsuhi is the culprit, struggle or no struggle. The mass-produced version is probably not called Sakutarou. Remember, Maria made up the name after receiving it from Rosa. |
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2011-08-31, 03:11 | Link #24014 | |
The True Culprit
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2011-08-31, 06:27 | Link #24015 | |
Senior Member
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;「私が真里亞の封筒から鍵を取り出してここを開けるまで!@ 確かにこの扉は施錠されていたッ!!@ で もこの鍵は封筒に入れられて真里亞に預けられていたのよ?!@ しかもそれは昨日のお昼前の話なのよッ?! ?!」\ `"Until I took the key out of Maria's envelope and opened this door,`@` it was definitely locked!!`@` But this key was in the envelope and in Maria's care, right?!`@` And that happened yesterday before noon?!?!"`\
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2011-08-31, 06:46 | Link #24016 | |
Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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Spoiler for Big Pic:
It kind of ruins the guesswork for newcomers about what mysterious thing Ange saw and how Sakutarou isn't unique (anymore?). At least, the stuffed toy on what Sakutarou is based on. Though Ryukishi giving subtle hints to clarify things might not be such a bad thing. If Sakutarou was sold in stores while Maria was alive, apparently she never noticed it. |
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2011-08-31, 07:47 | Link #24017 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Seeing that it looks really out of place! Also everyone not giving a damn about it and Ange's insistence on it might be because she's hallucinating it. ~Magic~
I guess its less likely that Rosa made all of those herself, the red regarding it is still weird though. |
2011-08-31, 08:00 | Link #24018 |
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Or maybe they don't care about because they have no reason to believe it's odd. A person would have to know that Maria had such a stuffed animal and that it was supposed to be unique. Amakusa had no reason to know either. The captain might have known the first, but could have failed to realize the second.
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2011-08-31, 09:19 | Link #24020 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Well, sometimes when you point at something that's not very close to you people don't get precisely at what you're pointing at. They might have noticed she was pointing in the general direction of the stuffed lions but not that she was pointing exactly at them. So they might have merely assumed Ange wouldn't care about stuffed lions and therefore wasn't pointing at them, but couldn't see nothing weird in the things near stuffed lions either
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