[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by haguruma

But that is what I am getting at, it is ot the definition of dead that was changed in the slightest, it is asking you to find a magic-less solution to the question how a dead character can walk around.
Of course I can't say for sure that my interpretation is true, but so far it has to be proven wrong. When Shannon and Kanon died, there is no lie, no different definition. They.are.dead.

If I can't trust red I can say that the culprit is... let's say Genji (there's probably some other red denying this but hey, red isn't reliable anymore and anyway that's an example. I don't believe the culprit is Genji).
I can say that Genji became legally Yasu's guardian and administrator of Yasu's money so, as Yasu isn't anymore a servant I can stretch things and say Genji isn't anymore one as well.
The motive is that he was disgusted by the family's behaviour and decided it was better if the Ushirmoniya ended with Kinzo. Or maybe he knew the siblings were in such bad financial conditions they would put shame on the Ushiromiya and didn't want this to happen. Out of courtesy he decided to wipe out the servants also so the Ushiromiya would have servants in their other life.

In Ep 1 & 2 Genji lived long anough to be able to go around killing people, in Ep 4 we don't know the order of the deaths and in EP 3 red lied, not in regards to Shanon and Kanon but in regards to Genji.
Kanon Zombi in Ep 2 was a lie the servants reported because Genji ordered them to say so and Shanon and Kanon's resurrections in EP 3 were fantasies of George and Jessica.

End of the story.

Now, this is a crazy theory but if you destroy the red that denies it with 'hey but I give to word X in your red sentence a different meaning than the one you assumed' you can work out a culprit theory for almost everyone.

I think it's hard to make a mystery that can be solved with a single truth exactly because you can suspect everyone to be unreliable.
That's why in many mysteries you're given a detective that will make sure you'll catch the clues and will help you sort among what's reliable and what's not.
In Umineko we're left blind fying and if the only thing that seemed secure, the red truth, is not trustworthy, then a single truth can't exist.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Now, this is a crazy theory but if you destroy the red that denies it with 'hey but I give to word X in your red sentence a different meaning than the one you assumed' you can work out a culprit theory for almost everyone.

I think it's hard to make a mystery that can be solved with a single truth exactly because you can suspect everyone to be unreliable.
That's why in many mysteries you're given a detective that will make sure you'll catch the clues and will help you sort among what's reliable and what's not.
In Umineko we're left blind fying and if the only thing that seemed secure, the red truth, is not trustworthy, then a single truth can't exist.

This is exactly right, and exactly what I think RK07 intended. We are supposed to find "the answer" without any absolute facts.

[Renall]

Saying "I intended it to be this way!" doesn't make him any less of a dick, though.

And I still call shenanigans on the whole affair. If he thinks there's one answer to everything, tell us. I don't buy for a second that he actually has, for example, any idea what really happened on R-Prime, nor does he ever actually want to have to commit to it. If he did, he'd actually provide some detail.

"But the catbox theme-" Yeah I know. It's still stupid. Acknowledging your story's stupid elements as stupid only works in comedy.

[Wanderer]

I think you're wrong that he doesn't know what happened on R-Prime. Why not have whatever made up story thought up for R-Prime beforehand? Having an idea of what happened on R-Prime makes coming up with what happens in the fictions easier for him, but at the same time the fictions have an abstract enough relationship with R-Prime that RK07 could do whatever he wanted with them and still not have to worry about consistency. So you're still right about him not committing to anything; he basically said so:

K Do you think that having this many different theories in that certain range is better than denoting one truth?

R Of course. Because I wanted to leave this margin. I never had the intention to give just one answer, like in Bern’s Trial. But I made it in a way that, if you investigate deep enough, you will get an answer that is beyond doubt.

K So is it that there is only one truth, like you just said?

R Of course there is only one, but because by telling it I would have limited the scope of ideas, I made it a bit looser. I was designing a concept that expected a little bit more effort from the reader side. Depending on whether the pivot leg is Beatrice or Ange, many parts of how you look at the story change.

I think he accomplished what he aimed to accomplish in terms of the accessibility of his "one true answer". He made it unclear and confusing so that the reader would think. You just seem to be of the opinion that the way that he expected you to think was stupid.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

I think you're wrong that he doesn't know what happened on R-Prime. Why not have whatever made up story thought up for R-Prime beforehand? Having an idea of what happened on R-Prime makes coming up with what happens in the fictions easier for him, but at the same time the fictions have an abstract enough relationship with R-Prime that RK07 could do whatever he wanted with them and still not have to worry about consistency. So you're still right about him not committing to anything; he basically said so:



I think he accomplished what he aimed to accomplish in terms of the accessibility of his "one true answer". He made it unclear and confusing so that the reader would think. You just seem to be of the opinion that the way that he expected you to think was stupid.

Where you here when a someone brought up a certain story about a man trying to find out the meaning of something in a piece of paper? Everyone would get shocked when he showed them the paper with the words and the whole story was about it. The author never told us the exact words (because he himself never knew, never intended to make it) and someone else had to re-write the story to give us some closure.

What am saying is, until he defines the absolute truth we can claim that he's full of shit. A catbox of sorts

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

I think you're wrong that he doesn't know what happened on R-Prime. Why not have whatever made up story thought up for R-Prime beforehand? Having an idea of what happened on R-Prime makes coming up with what happens in the fictions easier for him, but at the same time the fictions have an abstract enough relationship with R-Prime that RK07 could do whatever he wanted with them and still not have to worry about consistency.

But... he doesn't need to know what happened on R-Prime since, as you said, his stuff doesn't have to relate that strongly to what "actually happened." As a result, he can play fast and loose with what "actually happened" which, in his mind, means not actually deciding it at all.

But he's making airs that somehow there's something there if you look hard enough for it. There isn't. There's some ideas, but there comes a point where your guess is precisely as good as his, and he refuses to say where that point is because he knows it's not where people think it is.

And if you expect me to swallow that he had any of this crap in mind when he wrote Legend... well, I flat-out call that one. R-Prime didn't even exist in his mind at that time. He's got an easy way to prove me wrong, if he cares to do it, but he won't.

I think he accomplished what he aimed to accomplish in terms of the accessibility of his "one true answer". He made it unclear and confusing so that the reader would think. You just seem to be of the opinion that the way that he expected you to think was stupid.

He made it unclear and confusing at first so we'd think. He left it unclear and confusing by the end because he's a hack and he doesn't want that to be obvious. Best way to hide that you don't have a good answer? Ambiguous ending.

Again, he has an easy way out of this accusation if he wants to take it. He's the one fully in control here. If he wants to silence the naysayers that he had the whole thing sketched out from the start there's easy ways to do it. His refusal to do so isn't artistry. It's cowardice. He's even admitted to chickening out in the process of writing the thing, why wouldn't he chicken out of the ending?

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

What am saying is, until he defines the absolute truth we can claim that he's full of shit. A catbox of sorts

Precisely. As we say in the old country, put up or shut up.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

What am saying is, until he defines the absolute truth we can claim that he's full of shit. A catbox of sorts

Yep. I'm just saying that I think that the cat box isn't full of shit for some certain circumstantial reasons.

Originally Posted by Renall

But... he doesn't need to know what happened on R-Prime since, as you said, his stuff doesn't have to relate that strongly to what "actually happened." As a result, he can play fast and loose with what "actually happened" which, in his mind, means not actually deciding it at all.

What you say amounts to "not giving an answer=not deciding on one", which I don't agree with. The logic just doesn't follow.

[AuraTwilight]

It does if you say that the one truth of your work is obvious to people who look hard enough and no one can figure it out. Ever heard of the Emperor's New Clothes?

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Renall

And I still call shenanigans on the whole affair. If he thinks there's one answer to everything, tell us. I don't buy for a second that he actually has, for example, any idea what really happened on R-Prime, nor does he ever actually want to have to commit to it. If he did, he'd actually provide some detail.

For personal experience I know writing a story you can plan much more than what you'll actually write so it's possible Ryukishi planned what happened in Rokkenjima Prime.
In addition to this it's also possible he didn't find it interesting in the slightest, didn't want it to be the focus or a part of the story and cut info about it to the minimal details.
However readers don't know it's boring and people tend to be curious about the unknown so WE WANT TO KNOW.
I guess he failed to consider this or wanted us to think about it too.

On the other side it's entirely possible he hadn't thought too deeply at it since he wasn't interested in telling it.

Ironically the answer is in a catbox. Let's hope one day it'll be opened and the answer will be a good one.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Where you here when a someone brought up a certain story about a man trying to find out the meaning of something in a piece of paper? Everyone would get shocked when he showed them the paper with the words and the whole story was about it. The author never told us the exact words (because he himself never knew, never intended to make it) and someone else had to re-write the story to give us some closure.

What am saying is, until he defines the absolute truth we can claim that he's full of shit. A catbox of sorts

Ehm... I wasn't here but yes, I agree. Since the absolute truth is unknown both theories work.

[Kylon99]

I think you guys may be talking about two different things again:

1. The specifics of what happened on Rokkenjima Prime on those two days. Not including the explosion and Yasu's plans and so on, this is talking about what actually happened on that day. Which sibling started waving the gun around, who got killed first... how many times did Shannon trip.

I agree this part isn't very interesting and probably not necessary.

2. The plan in Rokkenjima Prime. This includes the explosion in the end and Yasu's plans. In fact, it is very centered around Yasu's ideas and motives. This plan ends up being reflected in nearly all the fictional episodes of Umineko as it's basically the core of the story. These parts are the things which I think Ryukishi has been telling us to figure out.

This part is supposedly the heart of the story and something we need to know and understand. And I think Ryukishi is purposely not outlining everything here for us to see.


Personally, I think the fanbase will drag #2 out of him eventually. 8)

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Renall

But... he doesn't need to know what happened on R-Prime since, as you said, his stuff doesn't have to relate that strongly to what "actually happened." As a result, he can play fast and loose with what "actually happened" which, in his mind, means not actually deciding it at all.

I think the most logic theory is that he has an idea of what happened in Rokkenjima Prime. I think part of what we saw in the games was meant to reflect in a distorted way what had happened on Rokkenjima Prime.

However, always logically speaking, he didn't need to have all the details of what happened on RP planned because HE WASN'T GOING TO SHOW IT TO US.

Therefore we can't say how much of what happened on Rokkenjima Prime was planned, if he went into details or if he just said for example 'everyone was playing a mistery game Yasu created for the Halloween celebration, when someone solved the epitaph. As soon as Kirye saw the gold she went berserk and killed everyone apart Eva and Battler that managed to escape. Eva hid on Kuwadorian, Battler tried to leave the island when 'something' caused some explosives under the island to go KABOOM, end of the story'.

As you see in this example there's a basic outline of what could have happened, no mistery as Kirye apparently just went berserk for unexplained reasons and shoot people openly and very few details.

Writing the games with this in mind would have been very easy and, should he decide to tell us what had happened, he could expand it as he'd like.

On the other side, even if he planned what had happened to Rokkenjima Prime down to the smallest details... well, as long as he doesn't write it he can always change his mind about it. Writing Umineko he likely made some changes to his original plan... this could cause him to consider changing the plans for Rokkenjima Prime as well, should he chose to reveal it.

It's a bit like Battler in Ep 6. He planned to have Kirye come resque him but then it turned out Kirye was dead for real so he had to revise what he had planned.

As long as Rokkenjima Prime isn't out in the public it doesn't exist, it's in the catbox and he can change or recreate it as he see fit.

Originally Posted by Renall

But he's making airs that somehow there's something there if you look hard enough for it. There isn't. There's some ideas, but there comes a point where your guess is precisely as good as his, and he refuses to say where that point is because he knows it's not where people think it is.

Well, there's something to be honest... but as far as I'm involved that something isn't enough.
Another option however could be that this something is enough but I can't notice it's enough because the explanation is so improbable that I automatically discharge it when it comes to my mind (personally I considered and discharged quite a bunch of things that ended up happening in Umineko because they seemed to unbelievable...).
Either way I definitely need a better explanation.

Originally Posted by Renall

And if you expect me to swallow that he had any of this crap in mind when he wrote Legend... well, I flat-out call that one. R-Prime didn't even exist in his mind at that time. He's got an easy way to prove me wrong, if he cares to do it, but he won't.He made it unclear and confusing at first so we'd think. He left it unclear and confusing by the end because he's a hack and he doesn't want that to be obvious. Best way to hide that you don't have a good answer? Ambiguous ending.

Again, for personal experience I can tell you it's possible that R-Prime existed... and it's possible it didn't exist at all or that it existed but was different by how it is now in his mind... if he still has it in his mind.

Also... again from personal experience as far as I'm involved the coolest part of writing a mistery sadly is to watch the readers wonder about it. I think he's having a lot of fun at watching us making us theories.
However, after a while, I think it's polite from the writer to give the answer... for both who reached it, so he could see he was right and for who didn't... because after a certain amount of time is gone is more likely he'll lose interest than that he'll find the solution.

So, since he too paid for the writer work, I think it's fair from the writer not to let him with a bitter taste in his mouth, but give him the solution.

However Ryukishi might be of a completely different opinion. He might be thinking: "you didn't come up with the solution? Well, too bad for you, I don't own it to you since I didn't promise it to you. Shame on you for not finding it with your strenght. Also, if you're losing interest... why should I bother giving you the solution?"

Originally Posted by Renall

Again, he has an easy way out of this accusation if he wants to take it. He's the one fully in control here. If he wants to silence the naysayers that he had the whole thing sketched out from the start there's easy ways to do it. His refusal to do so isn't artistry. It's cowardice. He's even admitted to chickening out in the process of writing the thing, why wouldn't he chicken out of the ending?Precisely. As we say in the old country, put up or shut up.

Personally I hope he'll show us the solution but, from the interviews, he doesn't look really interested in doing so. Probably he doesn't care to shut up the ones who're complaining, I get the feeling he thinks they are guilty for not getting the solution by themselves so he doesn't feel like he owns them something.

Hopefully he'll prove me wrong. Honestly I'm keeping all my fingers crossed in hope he'll prove me wrong because I'd like a clear answer... but I fear I won't get it.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

I think you guys may be talking about two different things again:

1. The specifics of what happened on Rokkenjima Prime on those two days. Not including the explosion and Yasu's plans and so on, this is talking about what actually happened on that day. Which sibling started waving the gun around, who got killed first... how many times did Shannon trip.

I agree this part isn't very interesting and probably not necessary.

2. The plan in Rokkenjima Prime. This includes the explosion in the end and Yasu's plans. In fact, it is very centered around Yasu's ideas and motives. This plan ends up being reflected in nearly all the fictional episodes of Umineko as it's basically the core of the story. These parts are the things which I think Ryukishi has been telling us to figure out.

This part is supposedly the heart of the story and something we need to know and understand. And I think Ryukishi is purposely not outlining everything here for us to see.


Personally, I think the fanbase will drag #2 out of him eventually. 8)

Hum... what I want to know are the important parts which might not include just the mistery parts but also the background parts that had some relevance, for example how Battler found out he was Kirye's son and how he reacted to it. Or if once he found out George was dating Shannon he took it well or the two ended up arguing (in most of Umineko he's cool about it but in EP 7 he says something along the lines of feeling jealous). Or if George and Jessica actually had a confrontation (implied in Ep 6 and sort of implied in Ep 4). Or if Yasu really planned to kill everyone or just herself or no one or wanted to kill everyone but actually didn't have the gut, had second thoughts, didn't have the chance... Or if Battler really forgot about Yasu or he also came there to fulfill his promise and merely didn't have the chance to do it because he though Shannon was happier with George. Or, in case Kirye was the culprit, if her motivation was just greed or there was something more behind it. And so on...

All this might not be related to 'how everyone died' but, as far as I'm involved it's part of the background that I'd like to know because TO ME it's releavant to the plot.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Hum... what I want to know are the important parts which might not include just the mistery parts but also the background parts that had some relevance, for example how Battler found out he was Kirye's son and how he reacted to it. Or if once he found out George was dating Shannon he took it well or the two ended up arguing (in most of Umineko he's cool about it but in EP 7 he says something along the lines of feeling jealous). Or if George and Jessica actually had a confrontation (implied in Ep 6 and sort of implied in Ep 4). Or if Yasu really planned to kill everyone or just herself or no one or wanted to kill everyone but actually didn't have the gut, had second thoughts, didn't have the chance... Or if Battler really forgot about Yasu or he also came there to fulfill his promise and merely didn't have the chance to do it because he though Shannon was happier with George. Or, in case Kirye was the culprit, if her motivation was just greed or there was something more behind it. And so on...

All this might not be related to 'how everyone died' but, as far as I'm involved it's part of the background that I'd like to know because TO ME it's releavant to the plot.

Well, about the minor stuff, like how Battler found out or if George and Jessica had an argument is reflected from the episodes, I think. This was the original concept of the Author Theory that I put forth; that the writers had to inject parts of Rokkenjima Prime into the episodes to hint at, not necessarily what happened, but what people's intentions and thoughts were. Both as a way to claim legitimacy and as a way of telling the story without *really* telling the story.

Remember how they talk about how the pieces can't be made to do something against their nature? This is just a dressed-up explanation of how an author cannot really make a character act out of character. Not because of some magical rule but because then their writing becomes crap or unbelievable. (This is what Battler-Tooya says, of course, not Ryukishi exactly. Although all authors must obey these rules if they want to be good writers.)



Maybe what you're trying to do is to try and know what really happened to 'truly' judge their character. But in the lack of direct evidence, I think you only need to look at Yasu and Battler-Tooya's opinion on the rest of their family. In other words, a third-party opinion on someone can sometimes substitute for direct experience with that person. (For example, if you've done hiring before, sometimes a referral by someone you know is even more useful than a direct interview.)

This is what I was trying to say with the original Author Theory. Direct knowledge isn't the only way to know things; indirect also can serve just as well sometimes.

Edit: I just drank too much caffeine so please excuse me if parts of it doesn't make sense. I'll go back and edit it in a bit when my nerves have calmmmmemeddd dooowwwwnwnn.

[Sherringford]

The way I see it, the problem with red truth came from the fact the author tried to highlight red truth the same way a regular writer highlights his detective's phrases.

Now, we can rely on what Philo Vance says. But we can't be sure it's exactly true. He must have thought that kind of distinction would fall flat on most of his fanbase and tried to make it clearer with red, but by drawing so much attention to the trust the reader places on the detective in the form of red text, he made promises that are quite subjective while promising to remain objective.

The problem arises that while we can very well say "his trick with the red was meant to let you think it was objective but then reveal it was objective" it's also important to point out that he made the reader think he promised him something, then revealed he didn't, because it was subjective. Now, because it was a subjective promise, the reader can still interpret the promise to have been what he thought it was at first and assume the author simply failed to deliver.

Taking it further, even if the promise is at its core not what the reader thought it was and he simply misread it, the author intentionally disguising the point makes it bad.

Say you invite someone to play a game with you pointing at a video game case on your shelf. Your friend would see a fighting game case, which he likes, and agree. Then you would take out a racing game from inside the fighting game's case and your friend would grow quite bored with it.

It's a matter of promising the reader one thing then not delivering it. The people upset about it are the people who would not have been interested in Umineko from the beginning if they were told subjectivity would be involved.

If you are okay with subjectivity, then the story progresses naturally as it creates no plotholes of any sort. If you aren't(I'm not) then you just feel rather cheated, if not in a mystery sense, in a literary sense.

He--perhaps unintentionally--mislead people to read a story they would be otherwise completely uninterested in.

[Wanderer]

Well, I think part of RK07's message is about how truth is ultimately subjective in the end. He wanted to show it to us, so he couldn't just outright warn us: "Hey this is a game that involves subjectivity". But Umineko still wasn't entirely without hints and warnings either; RK07 was already nicking away at the absolute nature of "truth" as early as episodes 2 and 3.

Personally, I think RK07 understands subjectivity on a pretty high level and it shows in his subjective perspective writing. However, I also think Sherringford is right that blending subjectivity and objectivity the way he did in Umineko really failed to appeal to people who weren't already interested in that kind of thing.

[Renall]

Oh please. I'm not dim enough that I don't understand arguments and fiction about the subjectivity of truth, but to even insinuate this work has anything to say about it on any meaningful level is pretty insulting to philosophers and authors who have tackled the subject far better.

If anything, I think Ryukishi has a distinctly juvenile conception of subjectivity. It's not infantile (i.e. "SINCE TRUTH IS SUBJECTIVE EVERYTHING IS OPINION AND INTERPRETATION!"), but it's hardly sophisticated. I chalk up pretty much all his failings on this front to lack of proper framework and general incompetence, not to some manner of ambition to demonstrate a deeper understanding through his fiction.

Besides which, he doesn't create a debate. Battler has no philosophical arguments in favor of the objectivity of truth. He is a straw man, believing in absolutes solely so he can be challenged and eventually reject them entirely. No character in the story makes a proper and respectable argument against what Ryukishi is building up, and the issue is not engaged or paid any mind. Even Bern has that furthest from her mind and her arguments (and of all people you'd think she'd be the one to try to troll with philosophical notions that would utterly tear down the entire meta-structure). And ultimately, everything is fixated on rewarding and comforting the people who seek shelter in subjectivity, without significantly questioning whether doing so is mentally healthy or morally right.

[AuraTwilight]

Not to mention the whole thing is silly when he also says that there's One Truth on Rokkenjima.

Except when people decide there isn't.

Or something.

[Renall]

I don't think he knows or cares. Even if he actually had a One Truth in his mind, it's clearly not important to him to share it. But his refusal to share it isn't doing anything with it. He's not making a point with it the way that, say, a Magic Realism writer would, nor is he using it to create a vivid descriptive impossibility.

If truth is subjective, can you imagine the messed-up shit he could pull in later episodes' board narratives? Does he? Nope. Just cheap tricks. The closest he gets is the Lion sequence in ep7 with the strange physical boundaries, Shannon/Kanon/Lion situation, Kinzo randomly being alive or dead as necessary, and characters randomly knowing or not knowing things they should/shouldn't.

Incidentally, that's the best part of ep7 and arguably one of the best parts of Chiru. In other words, had he actually tried like he did in that segment, he could have done a hell of a lot better.

[AuraTwilight]

I agree. It was really the only part of the series that felt like proper meta-fiction. The entirety of EP7 was pretty damn great.

I think EP8's negative perception is kind of magnified because of the act it had to follow.