Fate/Grand Order (Mobile RPG)

[Thess]

Originally Posted by XFire

I keep seeing this argument, that Chaldea is somehow making a morally grey choice here. There's no actual basis for it, but even before that its a complete non-sequitr because we're talking about the Crypters and not the population of the Lostbelt. They killed their own timeline for personal reasons.

Because they are? Your argument against the Crypters is that they helped (somehow?) to eliminate a timeline in favor of the other when the system of the Human Order makes such choice every time and we're responsible for such system. Nasu has highlight the system is kind of the reason all this happened in the first place in two different places. It sucks, but the system established this "prune or be pruned" method.

The Crypters were taken there and told to nurse the tree, which Kadoc couldn't do anyway. The only one who was somehow in control aside of Ivan was Kotomine who passed himself as Macarius. They weren't the ones who commanded the lostbelts to do anything.

Spoiler for LB3 and LB4:

Hinako doesn't even have such power over her Lostbelt King who just humors her and Pepe was completely out of control of his too (how the hell he did anything when neither his Servant nor his King listen to him until after Chaldea defeated Arjuna Alter?).

The invasion of Lostbelts wasn't their doing, that is the "God of another planet."

And that "moral debate" isn't one. If your timeline gets cut off, its a consequence of the choices your version of humanity made. Do what you can to save yourselves, sure, but you have no right to bring anyone else into it. You lose the moral high-ground the moment you attack someone else to survive, and they gain it because they were attacked without provocation.

Trying to prune them from existence isn't provocation enough to you? Are you unable to understand this is consequence of the system or do you need Nasu to tell you it is for a third time. And you miss the point, Da Vinci Jr wonders if they'll have the courage to destroy their own timeline if it's a pruned one

Spoiler for LB3:

like Qin decided to do in the end. This is left as a rather sinister note. Knowing Holmes is not to be 'trusted' because he's "Proper History: right or wrong" kind of guy. What do you think it might building up?

Guda's characterization as fighting to "live" is used to explain why he doesn't hate or resent the Crypters and never tries to blame or act resentful of the Lostbelts. It's an explicitly abnormal mental state and there's an entire event dedicated to the idea that no actual human could think like that.

Because Guda isn't even a character, let alone a human being. The point is that Guda has no higher ground when he's doing the same thing: eliminate other history to save his own timeline.

Again, this is entirely false. We see the entire scene from Ophelia's point of view, and the Crypters know exactly what is happening well before it is actually enacted. They were offered the choice effectively immediately after they were blown up.

You better quote it then. Ophelia's mystic eye allowed her to see Wodime's and the "God" interaction. We see the scene the Crypters saw with Kadoc and they were just told "Hi, guys, I'm the god of another star. Do you want to continue dead here or live?" That's it. That's all. Like I even mentioned above,

Spoiler for lb3 and lb4:

Kadoc, Hinako and Pepe didn't even control the Lostbelt or the King to do anything until like the end of Lostbelts. So what they even do? Pepe was in the run the whole time pretending it was fine to save face.

We literally watch the Crypters get released from their pods, except they aren't in their and we are immediately attacked by Anastasia and Vitchi. Meaning either this was all planned out in the void, or the Goddess had already moved them and they had been planning on attacking Chaldea anyway.

I have no idea what you're talking about. It's obvious they were taken a while ago. The operation began in Shimousa. This doesn't mean all Crypters had an idea what they were in for when they said yes, and got bounded to this. We see the whole thing from Kadoc's POV and there's no mention of lostbelts or panhistory destruction. That later went along with it (but you know some cases, they couldn't even do anything for real other than posturing).

Wodime's thing is he wants humanity to be gods. He pretty much spells it out.

We don't know his full motivations and

Spoiler for things hinted here and there:

the planet dying is something brought up twice: man of chaldea says so, and so does Da Vinci Jr. Profile. I bet the reason why Chaldeas saw no light of civilization ahead, might be because Earth is dead. You need to remember the Crypters were recruited before 2015 for some reason.

We saw a partial flashback from Kadoc, and even in that one he instantly knew that it was going to involve upstaging Guda and changing the world. Ophelia shows the entire sequence, and everyone knows exactly what the Lostbelts are and what happens next.

You're mixing Kadoc's flashbacks with Kadoc's thoughts thinking back the flashback. Ophelia could watch the sequence because of her mystic eye. The rest is unaware of Wodime's sacrifice.

There's a time lag of like six seconds between when the Crypters are released from their pods and when they launch the attack, so yeah, they knew exactly what was happening before they actually woke up.

Not sure why you're assuming the Crypters were around then. The antagonists made their move in Shimousa. It's not hard to trick Chaldea's equipment.

I'm using goddess because supposedly the actual word used is "Megami" and DW still went with God for some reason.

Where is goddess here? 異星の神. Please point it out.

Because he and the psycho dude are explicitly noted to be working against their own Lostbelts in favor of Wodime's.

Says who again, Daybit? And nice you didn't address the fact who is his ally makes it impossible for him to be against proper history if it's indeed true. Did you forget

Spoiler for ep. 0 speculation:

Wodime is just doing Marisbury's long cherished thesis and true goal while Daybit is likely the dude who told him to stop back in episode 0? We don't know anything about Daybit. If he wanted to support Wodime, he would have jumped to Atlantis as Beryl did, but he's mysteriously missing.

Seriously, where does the idea that the Crypters don't know whats going on come from? Kadoc and Anastasia (the LOSTBELT Anastasia) attack Chaldea before the Lostbelts are actually tied to the planet with the Fantasy Trees. The Crypters were offered the choice more or less immediately after the bomb went off, all of them accepted it even though they knew what it meant, and then they launch a premeditated attack on Chaldea and destroy the human world. They knew damn well what they were doing.

All this is just your assumption without actual evidence. Of course they are in for it now, but most of them had no idea what was coming on when they offered it. And even if they are for it, some of them were even unable to control or do anything to direct the lostbelts. Kadoc couldn't until Ivan was taken out (sure he participated in Chaldea attack which was sent by Ivan, and had Kotomine and Tamamovich as instigators),

Spoiler for lb3 and lb4:

Hinako only took control after Xiang Yu died and she had no say about what happened in the LB (Qin made the tree bloom), Pepe didn't even have control of the Servant summoned, only after Arjuna Alter is beaten the LB falls on Pepe's hands, but whatever happened before, how is it Pepe's fault?

Originally Posted by bakato

Pepe was...I forget.

How could you when LB4 extensively explores this POV

Spoiler for motivations:

Pepe is a shell-shocked mercenary who saw too much on the battlefield and has grown completely disillusioned with panhistory. Also killed the clan he (she? I'm not sure what pronouns use, doesn't Pepe identify as a girl or is it an okama thing?) was from when was a child to prevent more deaths, etc. Pepe is similar to Kiritsugu, who wants a less evil world where people don't wage war or kill for wealth and other petty crap. Sees Proper history as "true hell" and thinks those lostbelts (so far) are kinder because they don't have this wickedness. If you think about it, even if yaga land had violence, it was due to lacking food, not because they wanted to become richer. So between proper history and a more innocent history, Pepe sides with the one that perceives more innocent and where people are "less inclined to evil." Though, he encourages Mashu to fight him if she has another POV, Mashu is a bit at a loss because Pepe has a couple of points she can't deny. Pepe admits his thoughts are deviant but it's how he feels and why he wants to protect his lostbelt and why he'll stand against Chaldea. He reminds Guda and Mashu they'll fight in the end when they look relaxed around him because he's just that likable kind of guy. So he's a well-intentioned extremist.

Speaking of this

Spoiler for speculation:

I'm betting Kadoc and Pepe will sacrifice themselves as Ophelia to save Chaldea/Proper History once they finish their arc with Sirius Light more likely. Ophelia and Hinako died because their character arcs wrapped up: Hinako let go of her hatred for humanity in her dying breath and Ophelia got out her shell and was honest about her feelings, fighting to save the world (she really didn't want to hurt Mashu or betray Wodime). Kadoc's got the whole "even if you make many mistakes, you'll do the right thing in the end" flag from Anastasia, and his self-loathing arc ("someone who hates himself can't save the world"). As for Pepe, I think Pepe is still alive because Pepe's issues weren't solved either, it's his disillusion against Panhistory and seeing it as unacceptable evil. So is only natural his arc ends helping to save it, for a change of heart. I'm very sad because Pepe is my favorite Crypter. My little hope for him is that he becomes a Counter Guardian which would be a nice way to wrap him up for him to willingly do that for the sake of preventing more evil; he's got the ability to warrant recruit too. I'm not holding my breath though.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by XFire

Not sure what gave you that impression, but the Crypters were explicitly told what the Lostbelts were and what they were going to be doing as part of them. It's an actual plot point because it's later revealed that the reason Ophelia follows Kirstcharia so loyally is because originally the Goddess only made the offer to him, and he forced her to include his teammates. Everyone else thought the Goddess made the offer to all of them at the same time.

The Goddess already had their consent and cooperation by the time she unleashed the Fantasy Trees and covered the world. They all went along with it knowing what it was.

My reply to this, is the same as my reply to what you say here:

Again, this is entirely false. We see the entire scene from Ophelia's point of view, and the Crypters know exactly what is happening well before it is actually enacted. They were offered the choice effectively immediately after they were blown up.

We literally watch the Crypters get released from their pods, except they aren't in their and we are immediately attacked by Anastasia and Vitchi. Meaning either this was all planned out in the void, or the Goddess had already moved them and they had been planning on attacking Chaldea anyway.

Either way, this was not an unconscious decision or last resort. They knew exactly what they were doing and what would happen, and still went through with it.

We saw a partial flashback from Kadoc, and even in that one he instantly knew that it was going to involve upstaging Guda and changing the world. Ophelia shows the entire sequence, and everyone knows exactly what the Lostbelts are and what happens next.

From LB2,

YouTube

https://youtu.be/FdCVyktaZ4o

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Only Ophelia was privy to the same conversation between Wodime and the alien god. So nope, they pretty much didn't know about the entire thing when offered their choice. The alien descended right after and we don't know how much of the leg-work was done by the Alter-Egoes or Wodime himself.

Originally Posted by XFire

Second, if (when) Chaldea and Guda succeed in taking out all the Lostbelts, humanity will be restored. Meaning any of the Crypters could turn on Kirsch and undo their mistakes entirely if they wanted by tearing down their own tree and actually joining Chaldea. None of them do so.

That's assuming things are that straight forward of course. Pepe already implies that Pan-Humanity also has some serious problems with it as well. Meanwhile the British Lostbelt has it's Tree cut and regardless of what Krys says it's obviously not gone while on top of that Daybit's LB doesn't seem to have a Tree. It's not clear whether the Crypters or Krys himself know something about Pan-Humanity's fate that the protags don't yet.

Originally Posted by XFire

The entirety of humanity was murdered and most of the Crypters have given nothing but purely personal reasons for going along with it. While Nasu and the others have done a great job making them at least somewhat sympathetic, the moment you take a step back and actually look at the big picture of the story the Crypters come off as horrifically monstrous (wo)manchildren who slaughtered billions for personal, or worse, philosophical reasons.


I feel like a lot of this is from the misconception that the Crypters didn't know what the Goddess was doing until it was over, and are just making do with what they have, but we know for a fact that isn't true. We see that Kirsch was offered the choice, and in turn made it to the other Crypters, while Chaldea was still trying to restore humanity from Goetia. They knew exactly what they were getting into.

And again, even if that were not true, none of them even try to restore humanity by tearing down the trees and joining Chaldea.

So.....you think having some singular obsession with killing Crypters as one's motivation in the story, to the point where it's a major part of what one thinks whenever they do anything Lostbelt related and some even burning Crypter-side Servants is, for lack of better term.....reasonable? Not just acknowledging Crypters as villians or whatever but actual schadenfreude.....Over a game. Where one doesn't have the full picture of a still ongoing plot......Ok, it's not my place to dictate how one enjoys their entertainment. But I'm not sure that's what the writers intended at all.


As for your bit about whether Crypters fully knew what would happen, it is addressed above.

The entirety of humanity was murdered and most of the Crypters have given nothing but purely personal reasons for going along with it. While Nasu and the others have done a great job making them at least somewhat sympathetic, the moment you take a step back and actually look at the big picture of the story the Crypters come off as horrifically monstrous (wo)manchildren who slaughtered billions for personal, or worse, philosophical reasons.

I mean after all, the whole overaching theme of Part 2 is that literally nobody can avoid having blood on their hands or any moral high ground and it's literally slammed into your face again and again so.....? Chaldea protags even acknowledge that they themselves are driven purely by survival and is at the end of it all, not 100% selfless.


And seriously, claiming moral anything when one's reaction is literally "hurr durr Crypter bad, must crush Crypter-ism HURR" while ignoring everything else is nuts. Especially in a world where convulated magic/laws of reality systems are a significant thing.

Originally Posted by Thess

Spoiler for motivations:

Pepe is a shell-shocked mercenary who saw too much on the battlefield and has grown completely disillusioned with panhistory. Also killed the clan he (she? I'm not sure what pronouns use, doesn't Pepe identify as a girl or is it an okama thing?) was from when was a child to prevent more deaths, etc. Pepe is similar to Kiritsugu, who wants a less evil world where people don't wage war or kill for wealth and other petty crap. Sees Proper history as "true hell" and thinks those lostbelts (so far) are kinder because they don't have this wickedness. If you think about it, even if yaga land had violence, it was due to lacking food, not because they wanted to become richer. So between proper history and a more innocent history, Pepe sides with the one that perceives more innocent and where people are "less inclined to evil." Though, he encourages Mashu to fight him if she has another POV, Mashu is a bit at a loss because Pepe has a couple of points she can't deny. Pepe admits his thoughts are deviant but it's how he feels and why he wants to protect his lostbelt and why he'll stand against Chaldea. He reminds Guda and Mashu they'll fight in the end when they look relaxed around him because he's just that likable kind of guy. So he's a well-intentioned extremist.

End of day though, from his fireside chats with Mashu, and him preparing Guda to fully accept what their decisions really mean when dealing with the Lostbelts as well as him saying he has reasons where he simply cannot betray his Crypter friends suggest it's more loyalty to them than anything else. (With of course him genuinely believing the LBs are a better place). he obviously does not trust whatever it is the aliens and Douman are up to.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

End of day though, from his fireside chats with Mashu, and him preparing Guda to fully accept what their decisions really mean when dealing with the Lostbelts as well as him saying he has reasons where he simply cannot betray his Crypter friends suggest it's more loyalty to them than anything else. (With of course him genuinely believing the LBs are a better place). he obviously does not trust whatever it is the aliens and Douman are up to.

Yes, Pepe is also loyal to his friends so

Spoiler for speculation:

I suspect Wodime might get possessed by this conveniently bodiless last boss who wanted only him and is "compatible" with him. I'm rather excited for Olympus in a few days!

But that aside, I mean his character arc isn't over yet. They are exploring and "solving" the characters flaws as we've seen with previous examples. It's character development 101.

Spoiler for LB4 spoiler talk:

Also yes, Pepe helped Mashu and Guda a lot to motivate them in what they are supposed to do, even if he's their enemy, he basically encouraged them. I hope we see Pepe in a less antagonistic role in other Type-Moon works. I'd love to watch him team up with 30-something Shirou in a warzone.

[bakato]

According to the fan translation of LB2 Section 13, Kirk tells the alien god to "Give them the opportunity to choose too." It also makes no sense for the alien god to withhold the obvious implications of this endeavor from them.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by bakato

According to the fan translation of LB2 Section 13, Kirk tells the alien god to "Give them the opportunity to choose too." It also makes no sense for the alien god to withhold the obvious implications of this endeavor from them.

The choice is to die/stay dead (and I think he's deceiving them, they were lost in imaginary numbers IMO) or to live. We saw it in the Kadoc's scene. This doesn't mean they didn't go with it after that, but that was the choice. It's a game of survival, and it's the same for Chaldea. The "God" doesn't care about the other Crypters, he's just humoring Wodime's request. He only says Wodime is his true evangelist (Crypter).

But my point is that a number of those Crypters basically didn't do anything against Panhistory so blaming them for the invasion is just ridiculous. It gives them more power than the one they actually possess.

Spoiler for LB4:

Pepe was not even in control of his own Servant, for example, and he does side with the lostbelts for his own reasons. He didn't have any chance to do anything aside of protecting the tree and the lostbelt people whom he saw as more innocent and less evil than Panhistory's.

Spoiler for Crypter's function:

The lostbelt fell and wasn't by their action, but this "God". Their task is to nurture and make the tree bloom. Now the tree branches are what caused the 'deaths' (disappearance) of the people, but other than Wodime's which covers the planet, none of the trees were nurtured and grown properly by the Crypters to do anything: Kadoc was unable to access to the tree (which was dried and dead due to Ivan's rejection), Ophelia's tree didn't bloom properly either and had some weird hostile seeds, Hinako's and Pepe's trees were blooming (in that cosmos) but it wasn't by their doing but their kings. Only at the end, Hinako and Pepe get to control the tree, and are stopped before they can do anything. Beryl has the locals supposedly cut his own tree, there's no tree signal in Daybit's. So as far as the plot goes, the 'deaths/disappearances' of humanity are probably caused by Atlas Tree which is the only one that actually bloomed and expanded. The rest of the histories latched on the planet cause the Tabula Rasa bleach but that's due to the existing alternate rejected histories. And this wouldn't exist if wasn't for our own merciless system. While NA translated it badly, what Da Vinci Jr. and Holmes said "this was an invasion by histories themselves", so to speak. But the whole process of how people "died" (disappeared) was because branches of a tree from above impaled them.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Thess

The choice is to die/stay dead (and I think he's deceiving them, they were lost in imaginary numbers IMO) or to live. We saw it in the Kadoc's scene. This doesn't mean they didn't go with it after that, but that was the choice. It's a game of survival, and it's the same for Chaldea. The "God" doesn't care about the other Crypters, he's just humoring Wodime's request. He only says Wodime is his true evangelist (Crypter).

But my point is that a number of those Crypters basically didn't do anything against Panhistory so blaming them for the invasion is just ridiculous. It gives them more power than the one they actually possess.

Spoiler for LB4:

Pepe was not even in control of his own Servant, for example, and he does side with the lostbelts for his own reasons. He didn't have any chance to do anything aside of protecting the tree and the lostbelt people whom he saw as more innocent and less evil than Panhistory's.

Spoiler for Crypter's function:

The lostbelt fell and wasn't by their action, but this "God". Their task is to nurture and make the tree bloom. Now the tree branches are what caused the 'deaths' (disappearance) of the people, but other than Wodime's which covers the planet, none of the trees were nurtured and grown properly by the Crypters to do anything: Kadoc was unable to access to the tree (which was dried and dead due to Ivan's rejection), Ophelia's tree didn't bloom properly either and had some weird hostile seeds, Hinako's and Pepe's trees were blooming (in that cosmos) but it wasn't by their doing but their kings. Only at the end, Hinako and Pepe get to control the tree, and are stopped before they can do anything. Beryl has the locals supposedly cut his own tree, there's no tree signal in Daybit's. So as far as the plot goes, the 'deaths/disappearances' of humanity are probably caused by Atlas Tree which is the only one that actually bloomed and expanded. The rest of the histories latched on the planet cause the Tabula Rasa bleach but that's due to the existing alternate rejected histories. And this wouldn't exist if wasn't for our own merciless system. While NA translated it badly, what Da Vinci Jr. and Holmes said "this was an invasion by histories themselves", so to speak. But the whole process of how people "died" (disappeared) was because branches of a tree from above impaled them.

You're wrong. The alien god proceeded to exact the toll from Kirk in order to resurrect them on the spot. Which means it had to resurrect them first and then ask them.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by bakato

You're wrong. The alien god proceeded to exact the toll from Kirk in order to resurrect them on the spot. Which means it had to resurrect them first and then ask them.

Yes, and? He asked them if they wanted to live or remain where they are as we've seen on Kadoc's flashback.

[belatkuro]

Did one multi and got Mordred. Sweet. Her costume art is so good.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Thess

Yes, Pepe is also loyal to his friends so

Spoiler for speculation:

I suspect Wodime might get possessed by this conveniently bodiless last boss who wanted only him and is "compatible" with him. I'm rather excited for Olympus in a few days!

But that aside, I mean his character arc isn't over yet. They are exploring and "solving" the characters flaws as we've seen with previous examples. It's character development 101.

Spoiler for LB4 spoiler talk:

Also yes, Pepe helped Mashu and Guda a lot to motivate them in what they are supposed to do, even if he's their enemy, he basically encouraged them. I hope we see Pepe in a less antagonistic role in other Type-Moon works. I'd love to watch him team up with 30-something Shirou in a warzone.

Spoiler:

https://www.facebook.com/PillarsGang...42493919634150

https://www.facebook.com/iamincrippl...type=3&theater

Oh look, dear Olga is back. And Beast Vicchi too maybe?

Zeus meanwhile looks like a super buff Fou lol. Romulus fans got what they wanted.....skills are a version of that Roma CQ in the last Gilfes

Originally Posted by bakato

You're wrong. The alien god proceeded to exact the toll from Kirk in order to resurrect them on the spot. Which means it had to resurrect them first and then ask them.

We saw the POV from Kadoc though what the rest saw. Ophelia only saw everything thanks to her Magan eye. The others simply got the "live or die?" choice

[Sheba]

Zeus looks like his Disney counterpart wwww

[Cosmic Eagle]

Geminis are SSR, Romulus is SSR, Zeus is probs SSR...and what looks like Archer Herk appears also and no way is he not being SSR. How is DW going to partition the gacha lol


Maybe Zeus won't be an SSR after all.



Or maybe the red eyed dude at the end is Roma himself and not Archer Herc....who knows

[belatkuro]

They didn't show Romulus so I'm guessing only Dioscuri and Caenis are part1 gacha. Part 2 is Romulus and other ones in the LB. They can hold off Zeus until later like they held off Skadi for Anniv and Sitonai until Oniland.
EDIT: https://news.fate-go.jp/2020/olympus_pu/
Here it is. Dioscuri and Caenis only. Dioscuri is permanent. Caenis is story locked.


Leaks are true at least. Caenis is SR AoE Lancer. She gets NP damage up and Crit damage up before damage. Dioscuri is SSR ST Saber. They get Invul Pierce before damage and target gets Arts and Quick Resist down after.

Update soon because they said the app needed to be updated and it will be released as soon as possible. In other words, fuck Apple again.

CM:

Spoiler:

YouTube

https://youtu.be/4UqOhAsr2H8

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[Nachtwandler]

And it seems that Dioscuri are voiced by Uchida siblings.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Nachtwandler

And it seems that Dioscuri are voiced by Uchida siblings.

Who is Maaya's sibling?

[Nachtwandler]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Who is Maaya's sibling?

Yuuma. He is probably even more demanded than his sister as of late. And he likes to pose as siscon a bit

[Thess]

I wonder how players here'll twist Wodime as chaotic evil after that cm?

Spoiler for his motivations are sorta revealed:

He announces in the CM he wants to turn that lostbelt into "an Ark" for the future of humanity that will cross the sea of stars away from the planet.

So this seals my "is this Fate's version of land of steel scenario like Extra" tingling sense. The planet is dying. Person of Chaldea already said it was inevitable, it was also stated in the young "Da Vinci" profile, right? That's probably the original Chaldea saw in the future, the still, barren earth without civilization because the planet died.

[belatkuro]

https://news.fate-go.jp/2020/0409oith/

Olympus today in 5 and a half hours.

[Cosmic Eagle]

The Olympus prologue when they are comparing Junao and Zeus.......You know they set a really high bar with the former in LB4. Whatever it is Holmes says, Zeus still looks like a joke compared to someome who is the literal alpha and omega of his world. Sure you cannot cheese him by sapping his faith but it rings a bit hollow to people who have survived LB4

[belatkuro]

Used 10 tickets and one multi. Got Caenis and Europa is now NP2.

Seeing lots of juicy spoilers everywhere. Can't concentrate on reading properly in the game. There's always those fake spoilers that always come out during a chapter release so need to comb out the right info.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Spoiler for MASSIVE SPOILER:

https://twitter.com/kikura_infor/sta...345217/photo/1

Hello Beast Vicchi. And ofc Beast Olga too