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[Soliloquy]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

That's not the problem. It's that the illegal gender-selective abortions are still going on, and the hope is to end that. There may be 24 million bachelors in China in 2020 who can't ever find a wife. All because women in their age group have "disappeared".

Honestly, by then a huge number of Chinese will probably relocate to overseas I mean western territories since their countries aren't terribly high in the living standard. I have no idea what will happen the way Chinese Government drives themselves into corner.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

That's not the problem. It's that the illegal gender-selective abortions are still going on, and the hope is to end that. There may be 24 million bachelors in China in 2020 who can't ever find a wife. All because women in their age group have "disappeared".

Marry Japanese girls and breed them out of existence so Japan becomes and extension of the mainland?

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Athena

==========

Seriously, just separate the war criminals from the shrine and everything should be fine...and do something about the museum while they're at it.

Lol, you wish....As an Asian you should know full well how long our people are capable of nursing grudges that directly concern them not one bit at all.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Athena

Plus, as you said it, Germany is much, much more harsher on the crackdown of NatSocs and make sure they don't reappear. Japan though has been soft in comparison with Germany.

I'm not sure what Japan could do to reach parity with Germany in this case. While the Nazi party has been erased there are still people who preach some of its twisted ideals, generally going on about white supremacy and spouting hatred toward the Jews and some other groups. It is fairly easy to take actions against such people.

As far as I'm aware, Japan does not have individuals who would suggest repeating their WW2 wartime actions against China. The nation as a whole may try to hide from the issue, but they're not condoning it, nor are they proud of it. It makes sense that the Chinese would be upset at Japan's refusal to cleanly state that their nation was responsible for some horrible actions, but what can be done in the modern day?

[LoveYouSaber]

I think another reason could be about geography: Japan and China are close neighbours and in the same region while there's some distance between Germany and Israel. The Chinese can always be afraid that history repeats itself. A Japanese invasion - though very, very far-fetched - could still be a possibility, while it would be close to impossible for Germany now to go invade Israel and take the Jews into gas chambers.

Besides, Sino-Japanese rivalry goes back to at least the end of 19th century, and is still going on. Relations would have hardly been ideal even without that Nanjing massacre. I guess even the Japanese were to apologise now, the Chinese people are still not going to get over it. The true pain for China, a big nation, was losing to a small country which previously it did not give much consideration to. I think being a strong nation would in time help China get over that grievance.

I also agree with Ledgem that there's really nothing to be done in the modern day. The previous generation of Japanese should have apologised and the Chinese government then should have taken a stronger stand to demand apologies. But now it's already more than half a century gone, and there's less and less sense to ask the current and future generations of Japanese to apologise or constantly remind them to feel guilty over what their ancestors did.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by LoveYouSaber

I think another reason could be about geography: Japan and China are close neighbours and in the same region while there's some distance between Germany and Israel. The Chinese can always be afraid that history repeats itself. A Japanese invasion - though very, very far-fetched - could still be a possibility, while it would be close to impossible for Germany now to go invade Israel and take the Jews into gas chambers.

Jewish people aren't isolated to Israel, you know. In fact, I don't think Germany even touched Israel/Palestine. The Nazis gathered those in Germany, then in countries around Germany. China's still got water between them and Japan. Just in terms of geography, it's far more likely for the German incident to happen again than the Japanese one.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by LoveYouSaber

constantly remind them to feel guilty over what their ancestors did.

are saying japan should be allow to whitewash its history and minimize its crime?

And you really expect Japan neighbor, not just China but South Korea to be ok with it?

Originally Posted by Athena

The communist regime is mainly responsible for it in China.

The Mainland govt is responsible for a lot of stuff and while they did some fanning of the flames. They are not remotely the majority responsible for the anti-japanese feelings.

I would point to both Taiwan and Hong Kong as the primary culprits here. Both countries in the 60s, 70s and 80s made a ton of pre-ww2 and ww2 movies and tv series.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by kuroishinigami

Then I ask you this, is that attorney really that stupid to let such a "minor" offense to ruin a diplomatic relation or the it's the majority opinion among US citizen that diplomatic relation between US and India is not important at all?

I mean, that deputy consul general might indeed has broke the law of US, but can't the attorney just propose to deport the consul general to the India government instead of arresting and strip-searching said diplomat like she is some kind of terrorist or drug dealer and effectively shaming her? There's a thing called status you know, and technically, she does still have some diplomatic immunity(although that doesn't apply in this case). Diplomats and Consul general break minor rules all the times(traffic lights, speed limit, etc.) and sometimes even major rules under diplomatic immunity, so I ask you this, what make this case so special that warrant an arrest and strip search? For the visa charge, it's not like her status is unclear, she's clearly still an official Deputy consul general. For the underpayment charge, they could just charge her with it without any real punishment just to deter people working from working there anymore(it's not like the consul general kidnap the underpaid worker or anything)

Didn't you read what I wrote? The Indian diplomatic corps was given 5 months notice and were asked to sort this thing out silently; that is 150 days minimum and plenty of time to get that biatch out of there. Where are the people who should tell that somebody obviously didn't do the job when there was plenty of time to sort things out when she's accused of violating one core principle the UN is supposedly fighting for (anti-slavery measures)? I don't think I can emphasize more than the 5-month notice.

Now tell me this: why is it that the NYC attorney was kind enough to wait 5 months for things to be sorted out internally and then should be asked to wait furthermore when nothing changed despite memos, phone calls and other messages addressed to India? Don't you think the attorney was aware of the risks if the warrant was immediately in effect? Passport fraud is one thing and it's relatively minor of an issue, but paying an employee less than half of minimum salary requested by NYC laws (the maid was paid $3.31 an hour in a city where $9.75 is the minimum wage) isn't and it's mirroring something wrong that needed to be addressed when it was obvious that the Indian diplomatic corps got a brown envelope to keep her job still instead of moving her elsewhere. And I just don't buy their victim card when I see how screwed India is right now socially.

If I were to face her, my message is simple: welcome to the real world, spoiled brat.

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by LoveYouSaber

I also agree with Ledgem that there's really nothing to be done in the modern day. The previous generation of Japanese should have apologised and the Chinese government then should have taken a stronger stand to demand apologies. But now it's already more than half a century gone, and there's less and less sense to ask the current and future generations of Japanese to apologise or constantly remind them to feel guilty over what their ancestors did.

A while ago, Japan proposed to China and S Korea to write textbook together, and they agreed. Hopefully something meaningful will come out of it.

As for the argument of constant reminder, if some Japanese like to visit the Yasukuni as a reminder of their own war deads, then these are the people who choose to remember the past. Personally, I think if you want to honor your own war deads, then it's a courtesy to also remember the other victims, which is what Germany does for their ww1 and ww2 memorials. Though I agree an apology should no longer be needed. Anyone who has nothing to do with it, whether they live through ww2 era or not, has no need to feel guilty about it. However, attempt at white washing it would give me the impression that it's something they feel guilty of, otherwise there's no need to white wash it, because most countries did something bad in their past and present, that's just the way the world is.

I think Japan could maybe build another museum/memorial near the Yasukuni that talks about the victims and war deads of its neighbors. And if the PM visits Yasukuni, then he could visits both of the places. The PRC may still complain it's not enough, but I think that would make the Japanese's case on the visit much stronger from a 3rd party perspective.

[Irenicus]

The textbook issue is seriously overblown (for, of course, convenient diplomatic ammunition). It's like 0.1% or less of Japanese schools that once used those controversial ones. Most were straightforward, if brief, about the Nanjing massacre et al.

It would be like hating on America because some asshole in Texas is trying to replace Jefferson with Jefferson Davis. America deserves a lot of hating, but not for that.

The fact that the Japanese kids don't know that much about it, interestingly, is because of logistical issues: modern history is being taught during the last semester (usually third or something) and it's rushed through with little scheduling time left on busy kids with clubs and finals, most of whom don't have the stomach for History in the first place. Think American teachers subject under bullshit No Child Left Behind requirements. Some may argue that's an evil conspiracy all the same -- I don't know.

Of course, one must also admit that even if it's a very small minority, just like in America, the influence of this "alternative" viewpoint can be insidiously larger than it should, just like how the theory of evolution is under questioning by a surprising segment of the American population, much larger than people who use questionable "science" textbooks because -- please all go to hell -- the Religious Right's propaganda.

---

Unfortunately, there is an unpleasant force in Japanese society, symbolized by a minority-but-strong wing of the LDP, a "nationalist" wing so to speak. This traced back to the elder Hatoyama (not the younger, the previous PM of the DPJ) and his ilk, and interestingly, both the popular Koizumi and Shinzo Abe are part of it.

This leads to troublesome things like, one Japanese Prime Minister apologizing with all his heart and mustering everything in his diplomatic bones doing so (YES, THEY DID APOLOGIZE, MANY TIMES, 'KAY? AND YES, THEY DID PAY REPARATIONS -- though stupidly they called it something else out of pride), and then the other guy gets in power and visit that stupid shrine and provokes yet another lulzy incident which the People's Republic eagerly takes advantage of. It's not like this policy is even popular in the first place, mind, it's just that these nationalists within the LDP really believe they need to "assert" themselves or something. And given how incestuous the Japanese political class is, frankly, for some of these guys, it is literally their fathers and grandfathers who were in power during the decline of the Taisho Democracy and participated, in some form or another, during the militarist era.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Irenicus

It would be like hating on America because some asshole in Texas is trying to replace Jefferson with Jefferson Davis. America deserves a lot of hating, but not for that.

a closer analogy would be if German History book call into question the amount of people kill in concentration camps or even the existence of the concentration camps itself.

This leads to troublesome things like, one Japanese Prime Minister apologizing with all his heart and mustering everything in his diplomatic bones doing so (YES, THEY DID APOLOGIZE, MANY TIMES, 'KAY? AND YES, THEY DID PAY REPARATIONS -- though stupidly they called it something else out of pride), and then the other guy gets in power and visit that stupid shrine and provokes yet another lulzy incident which the People's Republic eagerly takes advantage of. It's not like this policy is even popular in the first place, mind, it's just that these nationalists within the LDP really believe they need to "assert" themselves or something. And given how incestuous the Japanese political class is, frankly, for some of these guys, it is literally their fathers and grandfathers who were in power during the decline of the Taisho Democracy and participated, in some form or another, during the militarist era.

it is not Just China that issue with japan. You might want to that the president of SK still hasn't meet the PM of Japan. And this shrine visit isn't very helpful in facilitating this meeting.

[Ithekro]

In high school, we skipped from were we ended in 1865 to 1920 from 8th grade to 10th grade US History. 1865 because we spent a lot of time on the Civil War (the Ken Burns show came out that year on PBS) and the next teacher wanted to get more done with modern history. So I had a 50 or so year gap in my US History until College.

[HasuMasu]

We barely had any history at all: whether it's our country's or the world.

I'm not really sure why.

[LoveYouSaber]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

are saying japan should be allow to whitewash its history and minimize its crime?

And you really expect Japan neighbor, not just China but South Korea to be ok with it?

No. History of course must be respected and defended, and since we live in a modern world, it's easy enough to get the facts if one wants to. But it's up to the Japanese people to have the decency to acknowledge their own true history. It's not something that can be forced upon by others - if the Japanese don't have that attitude, forcing them isn't going to make any difference. I think the Japanese in general (actually, people around the world) understands that war is a terrible thing and that it should never be repeated. That's the most important thing for the present.

I was just trying to say that in terms of going forward, constantly reminding people of crimes committed by their earlier generations isn't going to get you friends or warm relations, and there's more harm done to peace, so in a way it's counter-productive.

Originally Posted by maplehurry

I think Japan could maybe build another museum/memorial near the Yasukuni that talks about the victims and war deads of its neighbors. And if the PM visits Yasukuni, then he could visits both of the places. The PRC may still complain it's not enough, but I think that would make the Japanese's case on the visit much stronger from a 3rd party perspective.

Yes, that, or removing the war criminals from the Yasukuni.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by LoveYouSaber

that, or removing the war criminals from the Yasukuni.

Not as easy. On the practical side, the shrine is sort of like a mass grave of soldier whom they are too lazy to identify and sort the remains for proper burial, so most likely, the leftovers may have fused and will take eons to separate, assuming there is enough for DNA sampling.

On the other hand, these soldiers are the idealists who died fighting for their beliefs, a belief that they are the soldiers of the heaven descent emperor. To remove their names would be akin to dishonouring their memories and actions they have shown in pursuit of their belief that it would be "for the betterment of Japan". That is no different of how Stalin remove those who have fallen out of favour with him despite their actions in bettering the Soviet Union's power and status.

The Japanese has a culture of putting honour and image first, that is how they upkeep their reputation in the world. If the "war criminals" are to be removed, then the world AND their countrymen better be ready to accept such a "dishonouring" of those who sacrificed themselves for their country.

There is always a place in the world for honourable people no matter how stupid they are.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by LoveYouSaber

Yes, that, or removing the war criminals from the Yasukuni.

You are going to interfere with religion now?

Separation of Church and State, dude. You don't decide which dead people get a shrine, not unless you want to run the Japanese religious affairs the way the Chinese run theirs. And then you would get the case of the Chinese Bishop "disappearing" for re-education...

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

You are going to interfere with religion now?

Separation of Church and State, dude. You don't decide which dead people get a shrine, not unless you want to run the Japanese religious affairs the way the Chinese run theirs. And then you would get the case of the Chinese Bishop "disappearing" for re-education...

This is probably an advantage of it being the state to setup/operate monuments to war dead. You can avoid the pesky inconvenience of honoring war criminals.

[ganbaru]

A Deadly Mix in Benghazi
http://www.nytimes.com/projects/2013.../?hp#/?chapt=0

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

This is probably an advantage of it being the state to setup/operate monuments to war dead. You can avoid the pesky inconvenience of honoring war criminals.

And what do you think Japan get out of it? They honour their dead, if you don't like it you can fire-bomb their shrine. Seriously, if you think some great crime is being committed, then charge them with something.

There is 101 things I don't like about every country, including both my birthplace and my new home. But every year we basically go through this same crap about "Japan shouldn't have a shrine for their war dead."

Screw implications. Going to the shrine implies nothing. Until Japan decided to declare they are starting their war machines again and that they never regretted the war, I don't care what anyone can dream about "implications" for visiting a shrine. Every Japanese I know and ever heard from thinks WW2 was a huge mistake and should never have happened. This never changed. All the arguments about war dead is just a way to keep the hatred brewing for the people who are already long dead.

If you want the shrine gone, tell whatever your country's leader to start an invasion and remove the shrine by force. That's the only way, because the shrine is legal and you know it. And if it is legal to exist people are legal to visit it. But if people don't want to start WW3 then maybe they should be the ones to not ratcheting up tensions.


Edit: You know why this presses my buttons? Back in Taiwan I was being brainwashed by the then government as a child to believe the Japanese and Mainland Chinese are demons in human skin. That was not a pleasant primary school experience. And yet here we have Supporters of China saying that the Chinese aren't evil, but that I should keep believing that the Japanese are demons.

I have been there, I have seen the cultural brainwashing to breed hate towards others, and I see that it was all lies. No one can try to lie to me again.

[ArchmageXin]

And what do you think Japan get out of it? They honour their dead, if you don't like it you can fire-bomb their shrine. Seriously, if you think some great crime is being committed, then charge them with something.

Wow! From diplomatic rebuke all the way to acts of terrorism or war! Great way to work things.

If you want the shrine gone, tell whatever your country's leader to start an invasion and remove the shrine by force. That's the only way, because the shrine is legal and you know it. And if it is legal to exist people are legal to visit it. But if people don't want to start WW3 then maybe they should be the ones to not ratcheting up tensions.

What-the-hell? So, are you suggesting South Korea should revert into a dictatorship and censor freedom of speech to avoid criticizing Japan?

Turn the boards around, then maybe JAPAN should try to re-invade China and South Korea to stop those two countries for hating that shrine? I want to see how that will work this time.